There've been a lot of threads about "real trance" recently...

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-- There've been a lot of threads about "real trance" recently...
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Posted by mv89 on Jul-06-2006 01:00:

that track is amazing

the video is kinda funny though

Posted by skip on Jul-06-2006 21:03:

nice track. too bad it's kinda hard to find now. i'd buy the single!

Posted by montana on Jul-06-2006 21:29:

quote:
Originally posted by stevieboy32808
You got to be kidding me, their structures are very much alike. Listen to this comparison mix I did: link

I'll agree to disagree.

listen to the kick, it's a 4 to the floor kick ffs. yes, the percussion is set up in a "breaks manner" to make you think it's a breakbeat track but it's not. halcyon is uhhm, let just say it's techno, (fuck knows what the genre it would be pidgeonholed into). and fsol - png is breaks.

Posted by SYSTEM-J on Jul-06-2006 23:20:

quote:
Originally posted by stevieboy32808
You got to be kidding me, their structures are very much alike. Listen to this comparison mix I did: link

I'll agree to disagree.

I've heard them both a million times. I have Papua the single, Papua Translations and the Papua Remix Anthology. I've heard Papua to death and I love it to pieces, but:

1. The video sucks.
2. It isn't trance.

It's breaks. I like Ishkur's "ambient breaks" tag- it's an ambient track with a solid breakbeat. So maybe it's ambient. Either way, it isn't trance. And how the holy fuck are their structures alike? Papua is typical early 90s breakbeat- it slides through different sections with percussive interludes. Halcyon (assuming we mean & On & On- the original is nothing at all like trance) has an extended ambient intro and just loops the reversed vox over the beat after that, with other stuff coming in and out.

Maybe Halcyon is trance. I tend to call it techno, because it's from probably the best techno album of all time. Possibly ambient techno (another apt Ish-tag). Papua ain't. Even by your tenuous argument, the video doesn't depict "pure trance" because Papua (if trance at all) is hundreds of miles from pure trance.

Posted by Ishkur on Jul-06-2006 23:29:

Both Papua and Halcyon were part of the early 90s "ambient house" boom....to recontextualize ambient music with modern grooves and beats. Perfect for that 4am chill session after a night of frenetic dancing at raves. This movement was spearheaded by--once again--The KLF and their collagist masterpiece Chill Out, and further explored by Biosphere, The Orb, and the like.

But it was never, ever, ever called trance. Trance was this harsh, aciddy, repetitive alien stuff that came out of Germany and Belgium at the time. Ambient House (Or Ambient Techno, Ambient Breaks...they're all pretty synonymous...there really shouldn't be three or four genres pointing to the same scene on the guide) was largely a UK thing.

Posted by SYSTEM-J on Jul-06-2006 23:49:

quote:
Originally posted by Ishkur
Both Papua and Halcyon were part of the early 90s "ambient house" boom....to recontextualize ambient music with modern grooves and beats. Perfect for that 4am chill session after a night of frenetic dancing at raves. This movement was spearheaded by--once again--The KLF and their collagist masterpiece Chill Out, and further explored by Biosphere, The Orb, and the like.

I hate to vaguely derail my own topic, but I heard Chill Out properly recently for the first time, and I was crashingly dissapointed. For me it doesn't touch Ultraworld.

Posted by TranceArmstrong on Jul-07-2006 00:55:

liked the song

But I haven't seen anything that dull since 'Reign Of Fire', that dragon movie

Posted by Ishkur on Jul-07-2006 01:58:

quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I hate to vaguely derail my own topic, but I heard Chill Out properly recently for the first time, and I was crashingly dissapointed. For me it doesn't touch Ultraworld.

Because it's not ambient music proper. It's collagist music. They made the thing in one take, out of scads of samples and tape decks, punching them in at key moments. The recurring theme in Chill Out is America....Elvis, steel guitars, country music, the preacher, Jimi Hendrix, the Police Report from Lindenhurst--Nassau County in Long Island (NY), the Navaho indian throat chant, the song titles that recant a night time drive along the Gulf Coast from Brownsville, Texas, to New Orleans (a trip that takes 7.4 hours, despite the disc being only 44 minutes, I plan on retracing this pilgrimmage someday), etc....

The KLF loved juxtopositions like this. I think you're making the same mistake with it as you're doing with Daft Punk, seeing it through the eyes of today. Keep in mind that, up until that point--1989--no one blended such imagery like this before. And without Chill Out, there may very well have never been a 90s Ambient boom. Who do you think Alex Patterson stole most of his early samples from?

Posted by SYSTEM-J on Jul-07-2006 14:33:

quote:
Originally posted by Ishkur
Because it's not ambient music proper. It's collagist music. They made the thing in one take, out of scads of samples and tape decks, punching them in at key moments. The recurring theme in Chill Out is America....Elvis, steel guitars, country music, the preacher, Jimi Hendrix, the Police Report from Lindenhurst--Nassau County in Long Island (NY), the Navaho indian throat chant, the song titles that recant a night time drive along the Gulf Coast from Brownsville, Texas, to New Orleans (a trip that takes 7.4 hours, despite the disc being only 44 minutes, I plan on retracing this pilgrimmage someday), etc....

The KLF loved juxtopositions like this. I think you're making the same mistake with it as you're doing with Daft Punk, seeing it through the eyes of today. Keep in mind that, up until that point--1989--no one blended such imagery like this before. And without Chill Out, there may very well have never been a 90s Ambient boom. Who do you think Alex Patterson stole most of his early samples from?

Fair play on its historical significance- I wouldn't ever take that away from The KLF. But I've spoke to a lot of people about this record- people who love it as a piece of music and I got a totally different impression from what I've been told. I fully agree about the American concept, but everyone else seems to think it's about the English countryside, and as I live in the English countryside I didn't see that aspect at all.

I guess I was just hoping that I could still listen to it in a modern context like Ultraworld and get the intended effect, but the use of samples does sound heavy-handed today and it gets inappropriately synthy and epic at times.

Posted by Redd on Jul-07-2006 14:41:

KLF <3

Posted by Ishkur on Jul-07-2006 19:51:

quote:
Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I guess I was just hoping that I could still listen to it in a modern context like Ultraworld and get the intended effect, but the use of samples does sound heavy-handed today and it gets inappropriately synthy and epic at times.

Incidentally, don't read Cinos' review of it on TC. It is ass. And I think he actually called the sliding steel guitar in Madrugada Eterna "horns" or something. I cringe whenever he tries to talk about music instruments and theory. And I don't think he noticed the America connection or traced down the origin of some of the samples at all (3am Somewhere Out of Beaumont = Pink Floyd - Echoes, etc...).

It is a very very VERY bad and ignorant review. Even though it's given a good score. It just sounds completely amateurish.

Posted by SYSTEM-J on Jul-07-2006 20:38:

Will you write a review of the album then? Doesn't have to be for TC or anything, but I know your love of The KLF and you're obviously a big fan of the album in particular. I've always wanted to see a serious Ishkur review without the sarcasm or panning of material to make a point.

Posted by Ishkur on Jul-07-2006 22:39:

Critical reviews are boring. No one reads reviews unless they already heard the album or are interested in the artist.

I'd rather do insightful reviews like Ruthless Reviews' of Commando, aka the greatest action movie ever made

Posted by SYSTEM-J on Jul-07-2006 22:51:

quote:
Originally posted by Ishkur
Critical reviews are boring. No one reads reviews unless they already heard the album or are interested in the artist.

Boo.

Posted by Cobalt on Jul-08-2006 02:54:

quote:
Originally posted by Ishkur
Critical reviews are boring. No one reads reviews unless they already heard the album or are interested in the artist.

Sadly, I decided that was my opinion too.

Art is pretty pointless to talk about unless you're talking to someone. I don't think the review is a very good medium for that.

Posted by Sykonee on Jul-08-2006 04:59:

quote:
Originally posted by Ishkur
Critical reviews are boring. No one reads reviews unless they already heard the album or are interested in the artist.

Eh, not necessarily. Sometimes if you enjoy the writing style of a particular reviewer, you'll read their reviews of music you'd never listen to (instance: I'll read a Mark Prindle review of some obscure punk act, just because Prindle's just so damned funny at them). Of course, such reviewers tend not to be the norm. Far too many of them out there are content to play by the rules of music journalism, just in case they have a shot at something bigger.

Posted by stev�sto on Jul-08-2006 05:54:

thank you for posting that

thank you so much for posting that. i could definitely play that track live. how could someone say that video sucks? judging from the description, i thought it was just going to be sheep barely moving, and i wouldve been happy with just that. but there was much more than that.

there was movement, there was the car, the minority black sheep, the slight changes in each frame of a still landscape happening so rapidly (30 per second?), similiar to the tempo, but nothing really happening overall, like the music overall. the mood, of a journey. the deep message, as i interpret it: a question, like when someone asks what time is the movie, but in this case, what time is love? when is love going to happen for me? everyone i meet is just like the rest of them, a bunch of sheep. the tone of the music envokes anxiety and a frantic pace, meeting girl after girl after girl and they're all blah and time is running out you're getting older when is it going to happen. but also, the tone and sounds evoke a relaxing euphoric passionate epic feeling. the combination almost represents humanity, the world, entirity, everything and nothing.

Posted by Aabech on Jul-08-2006 14:23:

This movie somehow reminds me of Discover the World by Kosmonova

Posted by zenperson on Jul-08-2006 21:36:

Seriously, anyone that takes the time to write critical reviews is lame... get a fuking life... As an artist, the only person that matters to me is the fan/consumer... Really, there's no school that anyone attended that says you know a fuking think about anything in life other than the size of your own prick, so find something constructive to do, like making your own music if you're so unhappy with others'... If you don't think it's trance, then make some "real" trance instead of circling your own thoughts with pointless semantic diatribes on what is or isn't anything...

Posted by humilis on Jul-08-2006 22:25:

LOL. Good video. But this track is not trance, it's techno. Last Train To Trancentral is trance. Period.

Posted by noikeee on Jul-08-2006 22:29:

quote:
Originally posted by zenperson
find something constructive to do, like making your own music if you're so unhappy with others'... If you don't think it's trance, then make some "real" trance instead of circling your own thoughts with pointless semantic diatribes on what is or isn't anything...

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Posted by SYSTEM-J on Jul-08-2006 22:32:

quote:
Originally posted by humilis
LOL. Good video. But this track is not trance, it's techno. Last Train To Trancentral is trance. Period.

Don't talk shit.

Posted by zenperson on Jul-08-2006 22:46:

quote:
Originally posted by paranoik0
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Ah, Portugese is such a beautiful language....

Posted by noikeee on Jul-08-2006 22:52:

quote:
Originally posted by zenperson
Ah, Portugese is such a beautiful language....

i got a sudden loss of words for replying to such a beaten-to-death 100 times disproved argument.

Posted by zenperson on Jul-08-2006 23:27:

quote:
Originally posted by paranoik0
i got a sudden loss of words for replying to such a beaten-to-death 100 times disproved argument.

Interesting, guess I missed the day in life where the artistic community collectively confirmed the notion that critical reviews are of intrinsic value to the creative process...

Guess that whole notion of, if you don't like it, don't buy it went right out the window, taking autonomy with it.

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