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Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are complaints
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| Originally posted by Jayx1 The government should evacuate canadian RESIDENTS only. |
Okay, I can see some employees of companies over there temporarily who are CITIZENS of Canada, but these people with dual citizenship just living there, or people on vacation should be shit outta luck. They knew what they would potentially be getting into, given the area they chose to take up residence in or visit.
Oh yeah, the best part of the letter was the guy suggesting that they charter a fleet of luxury cruise ships to evacuate them.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are complaint
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| Originally posted by VERTiG0 Why? Why should Canada help somebody out if they're getting shot at in another country? That's the country's prerogative, but I feel that we should have absolutely no part in getting these people out. You go to a country that's in the midst of a warzone, you take your chances. Stupidity. |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are complaint
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| Originally posted by simms327 please note that some of these people dont go to war zones, war happens, and often you get caught in it. |
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| also, many non resident canadians work abroad for canadian companies, and represent canadian interests, and make other canadians money. an excellent example is mining companies, inco, falconbridge, etc... |
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| these non resident canadians deserve the full protection of the canadian government and equal treatment. this is a constitutional right of being a canadian citizen, which these people are. |
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| again, i am not saying the Gov't HAS to rescue these people, but if they do, they deserve equal treatment. |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are compl
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| Originally posted by Allegory Yes, but Lebanon hasn't been in a warzone in years. When Karim and others left it was completely peaceful. No one could have predicted these actions. To say such a thing is completely ignorant. |
these are the type of people that i hate....they bitch and moan about something that is being done to aid them and they say it isn't good enough and they want better. they need to learn a lesson and i think keeping them there until they will take any means of transportation to get out of there will show them how grateful they should be and how helpful their country is.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are c
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| Originally posted by Jayx1 People dont understand that THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT WAS UNDER NO OBLIGATION TO EVACUATE ANYONE FROM LEBANON but did so because it was the right thing to do. |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are c
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| Originally posted by VERTiG0 When a country is run by a terrorist organization and is in the middle of a hotbed for military activity, to think that such actions most definitely won't occur is ignorant. |
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| Originally posted by adi26 the media stupid enough to print only those stories out. |
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| Originally posted by simms327 you and jay1x then need to argue to have canada's rules on dual citizenship changed, not the equal treatment of all canadian citizens. |
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| Originally posted by Jayx1 im just sitting back and waiting for the inevitable accusations of racism that always accompany this sort of discussion when the other side is losing their arguement  |
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| Originally posted by simms327 i havent said that they are obligated to. but if they gov't chooses to rescue, then they should rescue all CITIZENS. its not an issue of residency. its an issue of citizenship, and the constitution affords protection to all citizens. The constitution does not differentiate btw residents and non residents. when you leave canada you stop paying taxes because you stop using the vast majority of services. when you decide to re-enter canada you then start paying taxes on your income, as you are using the services. again, if you dont like the tax laws, then get canada to change its income tax laws to those of the US, i.e. you are taxed on worldwide income. |
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| Originally posted by VERTiG0 Oh yeah, the best part of the letter was the guy suggesting that they charter a fleet of luxury cruise ships to evacuate them. |
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| Originally posted by Allegory Yes, but Lebanon hasn't been in a warzone in years. When Karim and others left it was completely peaceful. |
Re: Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are complaints
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| Originally posted by simms327 i disagree. my father is a non resident canadian, but only holds one passport, canadian. in the event of trouble where he is living, the canadian government should help him out. And wether or not you have an additional passport shouldnt matter. If you have a canadian passport, are a canadian citizen, then you have the rights to protection by the canadian government and equal treatment. |
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| Originally posted by *~LiSa-LoO~* but why should Canada spend thounds of dollars to send luxurious ships to your rescue when you all of a sudden decide to come back just b/c the country you're living in is at war? |
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| Originally posted by *~LiSa-LoO~* Also...someone had mentioned to me that when leaving the country - depending on where you go - you are warned that certain places i.e. Lebanon may be unsafe. Is this not true? |
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| Originally posted by VERTiG0 Oh yeah, the best part of the letter was the guy suggesting that they charter a fleet of luxury cruise ships to evacuate them. |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are complaint
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| Originally posted by Jayx1 i can see where your bias comes from but think about it. If you choose to leave for more than 6 months plus 1 day in a year you are legally a non resident of canada. That means that legally (in canadian law) you are now the responsibilty of another government. So why should the canadian government coming running to your aid when you have decided not to live in, vote, or pay taxes in canada? I think once you renounce canadian residency, canada should also renounce you. Its a fair trade off in my opinion. Im sick of canada being the YMCA drop in centre of the world when shit hits the fan and then being abandoned when the grass is greener on the other side. Its either one or the other. Choose one! |
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| Originally posted by simms327 no they shouldnt and, again, i never said that |
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| Originally posted by simms327 i have flown out of canada to nigeria 3 times in the last two years. not once have i neen warned. |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get a
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| Originally posted by infinity HiGH said this before and I'll say it again: Canadians are an ungrateful bunch who do nothing more than bitch and moan about whatever they can. |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are complaint
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| Originally posted by chinamon i dont agree with that. despite the fact that he is your father, does he support the canadian economy by spending his money in canada and pay canadian taxes to entitle him to that treatment? a lot of these people only hold canadian citizenship to reap the benefits. ie. health care, etc. |
if your working for a company overseas, its the COMPANY'S responsability to protect your ass. if you decide to live as an ex pat abroad, or choose to live elsewhere while maintaining dual citizenship, thats your choice. do i think i should be paying to evacutate non tax paying citizens with my tax dollars, no. vacationing residents from canada with citizenship, i dont mind if we give them a free lift home, but if canada comes in to a place like lebanon and resucues a bunch of canadian citizens who are non residents and hence dont pay taxes, they should pay the gov't back for the cost incured for saving their ass..... the US did it to its citizens and residents in lebanon.
My grandfather worked for over 30 years as and X-Pat, never paid taxes, he was a civil engineering project manager for various companies and worked all over the world, pakistan, venezuela, jamaica etc. my grandfather had to be evacuated from india with his entire family during the 1965 india - pakistan wars. the canadian govt didnt evacuate him even though he was born, raised and educated in montreal and he worked internationaly for a canadian based company.... his company evacuated him from the conflict.
beyond the debate of weather or not the canadian govt should be responsable for babysitting people with citizenship who choose to go to dangerous places, the people who are getting help from the gov't shouldnt be fuckin complaining about it. To all those Canadian residents over in lebanon who are trying to get out, i really hope you can find a way sooner than later.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are c
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| Originally posted by VERTiG0 When a country is run by a terrorist organization and is in the middle of a hotbed for military activity, to think that such actions most definitely won't occur is ignorant. |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are complaint
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| Originally posted by simms327 his does spend his money in canada. we own a house here, pay property tax on it, (for services like schools, police, and fire that we dont use), and he spends all of his holidays here, supporting the canadian economy very nicely. and when he retires and returns to canada, all that money will return to canada, and be taxed appropriatly. what many fail to realise is that canadians going abroad is good for the canadian economy and good for its citizens. Just like people from other nations coming to canada is good for its economy and citizens. when abroad, our non-resident citizens need to have the same protection as a resident on holiday. |
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| Originally posted by *~LiSa-LoO~* Never said you did. Not in person...but was there any documentation when booking your trip or anything? I'm just asking...I've only been to the U.S. |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are c
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| Originally posted by Allegory Lebanon has not been fighting for a very long time. You better back up your facts before making such ignorant comments. Just because a country is in the middle east doesn't mean they are all terrorists, and that strife will always occur. |
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Canada rescuing Canadians from Lebanon and all they get are c
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| Originally posted by colonelcrisp erm to the best of my knowledge depending on how long your father has been working out of canada, if hte time is long enough between when he returns and when he was last a legal canadian resident, he will only pay tax on teh interest of the money he earned. |
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| Originally posted by simms327 and when he retires and returns to canada, all that money will return to canada, and be taxed appropriatly. |
all i was saying is that i dont htink he will pay any tax on the principle,
where as someone who works in canada pays tax on their income, and the income generated by the interest on their savings
news to even our tempers
Here are some sources to illustrate that the majority of Lebanese Canadians are in fact residing in Canada and went to visit for the summer.
Source: Globe and Mail
Thousands won't join Lebanon exodus
Most Canadians in country choose to stay in war zone as evacuation winds down
GLORIA GALLOWAY
From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
OTTAWA � Fewer than one quarter of the Canadians registered with their embassy in Lebanon have taken up the government's offer to get them out of the war-torn country, as officials say dwindling numbers mean the evacuation is winding down.
By late yesterday afternoon, after five days of exodus, slightly more than 7,900 people had boarded ships chartered by Canada to take them to safety. Only 2,800 of that number had actually reached Canadian soil, leaving thousands of evacuees in transit on ships headed for Turkey or Cyprus, on the ground there, or on airplanes headed to Canada.
There are more than 38,000 people registered with the Canadian embassy in Beirut. While Foreign Affairs representatives refused to say publicly how many of that total they believe to be tourists and how many have settled permanently in Lebanon, one official estimated yesterday that the temporary visitors account for about 20 per cent of the total.
That number roughly corresponds with the number that have fled so far, which suggests that many of those who live in Lebanon have decided to tough it out.
There are an estimated 1,000 Canadians still trapped in the dangerous southern part of the country, where a ship is due to arrive tomorrow to remove some of them from the port of Tyre -- though Foreign Affairs officials said yesterday that there was no way to guarantee safe passage from the border villages.
Israel's aerial bombardments diminished as the ground battle intensified in Hezbollah's southern strongholds, where soldiers fought pitched battles with dug-in militants.
Hezbollah rockets were still falling on Israel yesterday, but Israeli bombing of Beirut fell silent as U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice visited the Lebanese capital seeking a diplomatic solution before moving on to Israel.
Canadian soldiers made a perilous journey into Hezbollah territory yesterday to whisk stranded Canadians from the most violent city in the fight in southern Lebanon.
A dozen civilians were outnumbered by about 15 Canadian military personnel, including several in plain clothes, as they rushed onto a ship in Tyre, a southern Lebanon port reduced to ruin by constant Israeli bombardment.
But it was clear that the number of Canadians desperate to escape through Beirut was dwindling. Fewer than 1,200 people boarded Canadian ships leaving Lebanon yesterday, down substantially from the 2,415 who left Sunday.
"We are putting out a call to all remaining Canadians who wish to leave," one senior government official told a briefing yesterday. They should "report to Beirut or Tyre so they can be put on boats." Those leaving through Beirut were asked to arrive by 9 a.m. today.
In the first chaotic days of the evacuation, the Canadians eager to escape the bombing had been told to wait until they were contacted before arriving at the port.
There will be no more direct communication between the embassy and those who indicate a desire to leave, said the official, adding that members of the Foreign Affairs staff have spent much time trying to reach people, only to find that they have already left the country.
Jean Ghosn, a baker, has four children, two elderly parents and a Canadian passport. He would like to go to Canada, but he can't imagine how he will house and feed his clan with no savings and no job prospects. His brother, Ziad Ghosn, also a Canadian, is worried about his wife, who is four months pregnant with twins. He will go back to Canada, he said, just not now.
While the Canadian government is paying the cost of the evacuation, Foreign Affairs officials refused again yesterday to give an estimate of the final bill.
"We're not in a position to say how much this is going to cost because we're not finished the operation yet," he said. "I would be very reluctant to offer a figure that would turn out to be only partially correct."
In most cases where the government is called in to help get Canadians out of dangerous situations abroad, those rescued are expected to pay their own expenses. But Prime Minister Stephen Harper decided last week that taxpayers would pick up the cost of what is acknowledged as the largest evacuation of this sort in Canadian history. One Foreign Affairs official explained that the government does foot the bill in large-scale operations that involve extraordinary circumstances. Besides, he said, logistically it would be difficult to collect the fees charged.
The government officials refused to estimate yesterday exactly how many more Canadians would want to leave the country. But, despite their call for the remaining evacuees to report to the boats today or tomorrow, they insisted they will continue to help Canadians evacuate in the days and weeks ahead.
Of the nearly 8,000 who have departed on Canadian-chartered ships, all but 15 to 20 per cent held Canadian citizenship. The rest were permanent residents of Canada and people of other nationalities -- Brazilian, Ukrainian, Australian and American -- who sought Canada's assistance.
Back in Canada, a debate about how much Canada owes to evacuees who have made permanent lives in other countries continued.
Conservative MP Garth Turner said last week that he believed people travelling to Lebanon as tourists should get precedence on the boats over Canadians who now live in that country. He also questioned whether the government was responsible for the costs of evacuating the people who no longer make their homes in Canada.
Those comments have prompted hundreds of calls and e-mails to his office. "I would say we are probably nine out of 10 supportive if not more," he said yesterday.
With a report from Canadian Press
Source: The Toronto Star
Canadian relief effort picks up pace
Complaints about rescue dwindling
Many evacuees express relief, gratitude
Jul. 24, 2006. 01:00 AM
OAKLAND ROSS
STAFF REPORTER
LARNACA, Cyprus�She is a young mother with a baby in a stroller, she's just been through one hell of a day, and her nerves are clearly on edge.
It is midnight in Cyprus, and she has just arrived here after sailing for 11 hours aboard a Canadian-chartered cruise ship � the Princesa Marissa � that has borne her and roughly 1,200 other evacuees on a passage to safety after the fire and rubble of Lebanon.
You would think the woman � who does not give her name � might be relieved at her deliverance, maybe even grateful. Instead, as she pushes her child through the steamy darkness along the wharf at Larnaca, she seems downright peeved.
"It is just not good enough," she grouches, before launching into a tirade against the inadequacies of the Canadian relief effort, an operation aimed at rescuing as many of this country's nationals in Lebanon as want to be saved, out of the approximately 50,000 who are in the embattled land.
When pressed, however, she can identify just one specific inconvenience that she has endured � a broken escalator aboard the Princesa Marissa.
It seems she was obliged to manoeuvre her child and stroller down the non-functioning device by herself, and no one offered to help.
"We deserve better," she rails.
This proves to be too much for many of the other refugees crowded around her, all waiting in the night-time heat to clear local immigration formalities before continuing their long journey to Canada.
A man in a red polo shirt sternly chastises the woman for her ingratitude.
"You cannot blame Canada because of one escalator," he says and then raises his voice, to be certain a newspaper reporter can hear. "We are very proud to be Canadian. We are very grateful for what the Canadian government is doing."
Many other refugees promptly leap in, all warmly expressing their agreement with the man in the red shirt and distancing themselves from the woman with the stroller.
She, however, stands her ground, insisting she has a right to complain if she wishes.
Courteous but heated, the debate continues among the newly arrived refugees as they shuffle toward the customs house at the port of Larnaca, with their suitcases, their knapsacks, their children and their regrets.
But it is clear that the woman with the stroller is in a minority � in fact, a minority of one.
It just goes to show that some things do change. When Canadian refugees first began showing up here in substantial numbers last Thursday, they seemed all but unanimous in their condemnation of the treatment they had received from Canadian officialdom along the way.
Too much waiting. Too little organization. Too little water. Insufficient or inadequate food. Rough waters. Stuffy quarters aboard cramped boats. Too many people throwing up.
If such comments seemed ungracious, considering the evacuees were now safe and sound after having been plucked to security from a deadly war, they were also probably unsurprising.
By the time they reach this Mediterranean island, the Canadian refugees � like those from other countries � are hungry, thirsty, exhausted from lack of sleep, and raw-nerved from a surfeit of stress.
Little wonder that their tempers sometimes snap.
The Canadian relief operation had been slow to get underway, but the mission seems to be operating more smoothly now. Between Saturday and yesterday, roughly 1,750 Canadian refugees reached Cyprus from Lebanon, and by midday yesterday all but 600 of them were on their way back to Canada or had already arrived.
Additional boats were carrying more Canadians to the port of Mersin on the Turkish coast.
Many of the evacuees reaching Cyprus over the weekend seemed at pains to avoid the sort of diatribes unleashed by many who had arrived earlier, perhaps partly because such complaints have played poorly in some quarters in Canada.
They have also raised prickly questions � again, in some quarters � about just who "these people" are.
Don't most of the refugees have dual Lebanese and Canadian citizenship?
Aren't they "really" more Lebanese than they are Canadian?
The short answer to these questions is that all the Canadian refugees who have so far reached Cyprus are, indeed, Canadians. They hold Canadian passports or have permanent residence status in Canada.
But those factors are, in a way, technicalities. Surely there is more to being Canadian than possessing a certain document.
All you have to do is talk to the refugees as they scramble down from the boats that have brought them here.
Although they have friends and family in Lebanon � whom they often visit � they mostly live in places such as Mississauga or Lachine, where they drink Tim Hortons coffee and dread the daily commute along the Gardiner Expressway or Decarie Blvd. Their kids go to Canadian public schools and speak the same language as Don Cherry, only better.
They're Canadian.
"Yes, they are," said one member of the Canadian rescue operation here. "That's certainly my impression."
Consider Laren Chemali, a 29-year-old elementary school teacher who lives in Toronto.
She flew to Lebanon earlier this month in order to prepare for her wedding on July 28. Her fianc�, who also lives in Toronto, was to make the trip at a later date, but the war with Israel intervened.
Now the wedding has been called off, at least in its original form, and Chemali was among 1,200 refugees who arrived here Saturday, along with her mother, brother and two cousins.
"It's unfortunate," she said of the botched nuptials in Lebanon. "We had planned it specially for our grandparents."
But not everything is lost. Chemali is alive and safe, and there are banquet halls in Toronto as well as in Beirut.
"We're going to get married in Toronto now," she said. "Maybe on the same date."
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