TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Canada - Toronto & Southern Ont.
-- TORONTO STAR: Fed up with lakefront noise? Just deal with it
Pages (3): « 1 [2] 3 »
i'm going to move on to bay and front street and i'm going to complain about the traffic that happens in the morning and around 4-5pm when people leave work.
if they move in and know that they don't want the noise, then dont' move there. its plain and simple.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Jayx1 just playing the devils advocate for a second. A lot of scientists now consider "noise pollution" to be very harmful. Of course this all falls into interpretation and relevancy. Whereas you may feel that a "little bit" of noise is not harmful to you in relation to smoking, others may feel that a little second hand smoke is not harmful to them in relation to car fumes on a city street. Thats the problem when you become a nit picker. Its all in interpretation. I happen to have a high (for our society at least) tolerance for the actions of others. Other people do not. |
What no one here seems to realize is that Islander's houses were literally shaking, windows and floors shaking at four in the morning.
A few years ago when in attempt to reduce the number of times fines were getting dropped at their door the docks management turned the speakers away from the Island people in the Beaches complained about the noise to the point where their counsellor was advocating pulling the plug on the club immediately.
By way of comparison, beside where the docks is now located there was a car crushing facility for as long as anyone can remember, no one on the islands complained about the noise from the sounds of cars being pulverized.
For ten years people on the islands were asking if the club could keep the outdoor noise levels down after 11pm. Even when the local constabulary fined the docks for noise violations, it evidentl became a cost of doing business ($5000 seems palrtry compared to any night's bar tab).
There has always been room for compromise but the management of the docks has steadfastly refused to consider the neighborhood that they moved into. Yes the residents of the Islands were there first.
If the docks ends up permanently losing their liquor license the only person who should be blamed is Sprackman for trying to bully his way into ignoring the existing bylaws and the environment he operates in.
I think the docks is great, it is a great venue in an awesome location and the facilities have brought new life to an industrial area. But it is also not too much to ask that business owners respect the area that they are moving into. If the clubs in the entertainment district - I used to live on Adelaide at John for years - can manage to have a dialogue with local residents, what is stopping sprackman and company from being good neighbors?
Clubs in LA and New York are silent at street level, and heart stoppingly loud inside. When we used to have illegal after hours parties they were also loud inside and nearly silent outside, so WTF is up with sprackman. Seems to me like he is pitting the club goers against his neighbors, maybe to drum up free publicity?
LOL the whole reason for moving to the city centre is to be closer to the noise!
Yeah sure, the island residents were there before the Docks, but the downtown was there before them. Traditionally downtowns are the centre of a cities night life.
I find it funny how often a minority can ruin it for the majority in Toronto.
If you don't like the beats move to Barrie, Bolton or some other far flung place.
Uh I don't know what map you are looking at but the docks isn't downtown or in the city centre. If the industrial and shipping noises that preceeded the docks didn't annoy the people on the islands, then I don't think that it is just the noise of living in a busy area that is what is bothering them.
Sprackman's been breaking the law for years, like it or not he is the author of his own fate. Turning this into a publicity campaign is just embarassing.
As far as a majority's fun being ruined by a minority consider the millions of people who visit the Islands, it is city park after all - as a retreat from the heat and congenstion and noise of the city? Is it necessary to subject them to the noise of the docks as well? Maybe we should suggest moving the party to High Park instead.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by skip-f*ckn-intr Uh I don't know what map you are looking at but the docks isn't downtown or in the city centre. If the industrial and shipping noises that preceeded the docks didn't annoy the people on the islands, then I don't think that it is just the noise of living in a busy area that is what is bothering them. Sprackman's been breaking the law for years, like it or not he is the author of his own fate. Turning this into a publicity campaign is just embarassing. As far as a majority's fun being ruined by a minority consider the millions of people who visit the Islands, it is city park after all - as a retreat from the heat and congenstion and noise of the city? Is it necessary to subject them to the noise of the docks as well? Maybe we should suggest moving the party to High Park instead. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by MKpacha hahahhahaha so the noise of the docks bothers the visitors to the islands during the day? millions of visitors to the islands? source please. you also make it seem like sprackman is a criminal...because his club on occasion has broken noise bylaws? seriously, move. who do you islanders think you are? honestly.... |
I'm not an islander. I live downtown, and I like to visit the island, and I have friends who have lived there their whole lives and I have no problem with loud music, I just don't think that one groups party has to piss all over other people's lives. There is always room for a compromise, something which the Docks has shown no interest in when it comes to it's neighbors.
but since you asked for a source:
City of toronto website.
Over 1,225,000 people visit this 230.388 hectare park each year.
And yeah if you go over the islands during the day when there's a party at the docks you can hear it loud and clear on the islands.
What do you call someone who repeatedly breaks the law, even if they can simply ignore it by absorbing the cost of the fines?
And as i said before if the docks close because they have lost their liquor license, it would be the managements fault for continuing to break the law for years.
I laugh how all 4 of your posts have been on the topic of the docks vs. the islanders. not only to mention you profile leaves nothing to the imagination "turn it up or turn it off".
seriously. get back on the boat.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by skip-f*ckn-intr City of toronto website. Over 1,225,000 people visit this 230.388 hectare park each year. |
Spadina and College is a ways from the islands but whatevah.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by slingshot THE TORONTO ISLANDS ARE NOT A FUCKING RETIREMENT HOME. |
skip-f*ckn-intr are you the token islander bitching about Sprackman , you seem very bitter for someone who is not connected with the Island I smell a plant
| quote: |
| Originally posted by skip-f*ckn-intr Uh I don't know what map you are looking at but the docks isn't downtown or in the city centre. If the industrial and shipping noises that preceeded the docks didn't annoy the people on the islands, then I don't think that it is just the noise of living in a busy area that is what is bothering them. Sprackman's been breaking the law for years, like it or not he is the author of his own fate. Turning this into a publicity campaign is just embarassing. As far as a majority's fun being ruined by a minority consider the millions of people who visit the Islands, it is city park after all - as a retreat from the heat and congenstion and noise of the city? Is it necessary to subject them to the noise of the docks as well? Maybe we should suggest moving the party to High Park instead. |
Just so you know techhead, people were living on the Island before the airport was built. I am not an Islander, but many of my friends are, and I have never heard any of them complain about Redpath, some might, just not any I know.
I joined this forum because I heard from a former coworker how Islanders are totally getting slammed here. What he told me sounded like there was a lot of misinformation about the whole debacle, understandable because noone here wants the Docks to close and it seems on the surface like a bunch of spoiled whiners are shutting down everyone else's fun. I don't think it is that simple. The islanders I know don't want the Docks closed, they just want to be able to sleep at night. I like the island, I like the Docks, (but not so much Sprackman's behavior). I was hoping that maybe a compromise could be found if people knew the other side of the story, rather than what was being presented in the press. If Mister Sprackman is true to his word then maybe a dialogue can be opened. it is just too bad that it had to come to this. Clearly I made a terrific error in judgement in joining this forum as it is a whole lot easier to just get angry and hope that the other side loses, rather than listening to what both sides have to say.
Good luck to you
Canadians love conservatism
Today at the restaurant I work at; a Portugese lady ask me if it's "OK to smoke outside on the street". I was kinda surprised at the odd question...but for only a second cause she must of spent a day in Canada realized that, you can't drink anywhere except designated places, can't smoke even certain placed outside, like patios and near entrances/exits, prolly can't shit in all the toilets except specially designated ones. The external world must think Canada is full of, cancerously filled alcoholics, who can't drive...cause the speed limits are 50km/h everywhere; and all the police does is hide behind trees with a little radar gun, because in Canada cops don't have real guns, since they're always holding the other kind...
| quote: |
| Originally posted by skip-f*ckn-intr Just so you know techhead, people were living on the Island before the airport was built. I am not an Islander, but many of my friends are, and I have never heard any of them complain about Redpath, some might, just not any I know. I joined this forum because I heard from a former coworker how Islanders are totally getting slammed here. What he told me sounded like there was a lot of misinformation about the whole debacle, understandable because noone here wants the Docks to close and it seems on the surface like a bunch of spoiled whiners are shutting down everyone else's fun. I don't think it is that simple. The islanders I know don't want the Docks closed, they just want to be able to sleep at night. I like the island, I like the Docks, (but not so much Sprackman's behavior). I was hoping that maybe a compromise could be found if people knew the other side of the story, rather than what was being presented in the press. If Mister Sprackman is true to his word then maybe a dialogue can be opened. it is just too bad that it had to come to this. Clearly I made a terrific error in judgement in joining this forum as it is a whole lot easier to just get angry and hope that the other side loses, rather than listening to what both sides have to say. Good luck to you |
still hoping that somebody can help answer some of these questions..
quote:
There seems to be a lack of important information from the articles I've seen on the news covering this.
My questions:
1. Has anyone ever addressed the apparent "inequalities" of the islander resident privileges earlier? If not, why must it wait until something like the Docks is threatened before people start to take notice or care? If they never complained about noise levels would they have continued to live through their 99 year lease without anyone crying Communism?
Was the land trust on the Island that was set up by the former NDP government in 1993 ever put to a vote at Queen's Park?
2. What exactly are the standard conditions that the Docks nightclub must abide by as far as noise levels are concerned? How is this even measured (by decibel level) or enforced?
3. The Toronto Island Community Association claims that the Docks nightclub has violated the conditions of the noise bylaws in the past. How exactly were these alleged violations addressed with the club management, how often did they allegedly occur, and how did the club management respond in turn?
4. Who is Jerry Sprackman referring to at the end of the article when he states: Groups who stage raves in and around his property share the blame, he said, and if they don�t stop, �we are going to sue their behinds off� because �I�m getting sick and tired of being accused of things.�
Is he referring to the Cherry Beach party organizers and promoters?
If anyone can answer some of these questions I'd appreciate it for the sake of my own curiousity. Thanks.
To the friend of the islanders:
How is it that the islanders are still complaining yet according to the city itself, the docks has not received one noise complaint all year??
Second: Why do this little group of people think they can run city hall and waterfront development? I have no question that the islanders probably heard noise from the docks. But my question is, how can they expect not to hear noise from the mainland?
And, its not just the docks they are after. They want the airport to close, they want to stop party boats from partying, and im sure they want a major say in Robert Fung's master waterfront plan (or whoever is in charge these days).
Sound travels over water. Therefore the islanders are at a greater disadvantage than most since they are surrounded by water. That means that unlike on mainland, the island will absorb everything that goes on around them. But thats called trading off. You want to live near water next to the nation's largest city? Expect sound to bounce across the water!
As has been said many times on this message board the solution is very simple. If islanders dont like noise emitting from the docks, the party boats, the airport, the power generator, or whatever else they will whine about next, then move to a place where the peacfullness meets their expectations.
We live in the second biggest country in the world. We have wide open spaces next to water everywhere. Places where the only noise you will hear coming across the lake is from birds and loons. I suggest those who dont want to hear city noise move there.
And what if i was in their position you may ask?
I used to live above a pub. Every thurs-sat night they would play loud music and my living room above would shake to the boom boom boom. It was annoying at first. But eventually i got used to it. Under the law (because our laws are fucked) i had every right to complain. But i didnt.
1) because they were there first
2) because i chose to live in a mixed used commercial/residential area
3) i lived in a built up part of town in the middle of a downtown section.
4) if i wanted utmost peace and quiet there were plenty of other places i could live. However i WANTED to be within walking distance of everything. So therefore the music was the trade off.
5) im not selfish and consider myself a tolerant neighbour
Personally id be in this fight whether it were the docks, a party boat, a factory, or anything else. Why? Because its high time that people start accepting that there are certain trade offs involved in picking a location to live. And that if they are not willing to make those trade offs then they should move.
| quote: |
1. Has anyone ever addressed the apparent "inequalities" of the islander resident privileges earlier? If not, why must it wait until something like the Docks is threatened before people start to take notice or care? If they never complained about noise levels would they have continued to live through their 99 year lease without anyone crying Communism? Was the land trust on the Island that was set up by the former NDP government in 1993 ever put to a vote at Queen's Park? 2. What exactly are the standard conditions that the Docks nightclub must abide by as far as noise levels are concerned? How is this even measured (by decibel level) or enforced? 3. The Toronto Island Community Association claims that the Docks nightclub has violated the conditions of the noise bylaws in the past. How exactly were these alleged violations addressed with the club management, how often did they allegedly occur, and how did the club management respond in turn? 4. Who is Jerry Sprackman referring to at the end of the article when he states: Groups who stage raves in and around his property share the blame, he said, and if they don�t stop, �we are going to sue their behinds off� because �I�m getting sick and tired of being accused of things.� Is he referring to the Cherry Beach party organizers and promoters? If anyone can answer some of these questions I'd appreciate it for the sake of my own curiousity. Thanks. |
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Jayx1 To the friend of the islanders: How is it that the islanders are still complaining yet according to the city itself, the docks has not received one noise complaint all year?? Second: Why do this little group of people think they can run city hall and waterfront development? I have no question that the islanders probably heard noise from the docks. But my question is, how can they expect not to hear noise from the mainland? And, its not just the docks they are after. They want the airport to close, they want to stop party boats from partying, and im sure they want a major say in Robert Fung's master waterfront plan (or whoever is in charge these days). Sound travels over water. Therefore the islanders are at a greater disadvantage than most since they are surrounded by water. That means that unlike on mainland, the island will absorb everything that goes on around them. But thats called trading off. You want to live near water next to the nation's largest city? Expect sound to bounce across the water! As has been said many times on this message board the solution is very simple. If islanders dont like noise emitting from the docks, the party boats, the airport, the power generator, or whatever else they will whine about next, then move to a place where the peacfullness meets their expectations. We live in the second biggest country in the world. We have wide open spaces next to water everywhere. Places where the only noise you will hear coming across the lake is from birds and loons. I suggest those who dont want to hear city noise move there. And what if i was in their position you may ask? I used to live above a pub. Every thurs-sat night they would play loud music and my living room above would shake to the boom boom boom. It was annoying at first. But eventually i got used to it. Under the law (because our laws are fucked) i had every right to complain. But i didnt. 1) because they were there first 2) because i chose to live in a mixed used commercial/residential area 3) i lived in a built up part of town in the middle of a downtown section. 4) if i wanted utmost peace and quiet there were plenty of other places i could live. However i WANTED to be within walking distance of everything. So therefore the music was the trade off. 5) im not selfish and consider myself a tolerant neighbour Personally id be in this fight whether it were the docks, a party boat, a factory, or anything else. Why? Because its high time that people start accepting that there are certain trade offs involved in picking a location to live. And that if they are not willing to make those trade offs then they should move. |
IM HAMMERD! FUCK! HOY SHIT.... man, i love alcohol.
| quote: |
| Originally posted by Jem_hadar IM HAMMERD! FUCK! HOY SHIT.... man, i love alcohol. |
quote:
Sounds of silence come from Docks
Club's licence is back pending appeal
Seagulls drown out patio noise on island
Jul. 31, 2006. 05:34 AM
TAMARA CHERRY
STAFF REPORTER
The neon-lit palm trees draping over the Docks patio are so loud, you can almost hear them.
At 1:30 a.m. Sunday, the Cherry St. hotspot is flooded with people inside and out. But the rhythm of the music is felt only through the pulsating lights seen through the closed windows and doors.
Docks regular Clint Mack stands on the patio, drink in hand.
"It's a nightclub inside," he says. "But you can't hear anything out here."
Business doesn't seem to have dropped since last week, when the Docks had its liquor licence temporarily revoked over noise complaints and then reinstated, with restrictions, pending an appeal.
For years, Toronto island residents have complained about emotional stress and sleep deprivation due to noise coming from the nightclub. But as this water taxi drifts from the Docks to the Cove � the island spot where taxi driver George McQuinn says residents get the brunt of the so-called noisy storm � the ambient sound of chatter coming from the patio is quickly trumped by seagulls.
After 10 seconds of silence and concentration, a distant bass vibrates through the air. We trace it to the source: About a mile away, The Guvernment nightclub blasts music from its rooftop patio on the harbourfront. Closer to the island, reggae beats belt out from party boat Enterprise 2000.
Party boats like this are a sign of summer, says Cove resident Jimmy Wicks in a ride from the city to the island. And many times, they create just as much, if not more noise than the Docks, which has been plagued by islander complaints for a decade in a battle to turn down the music.
That battle seemingly ended last week when the nightclub had its liquor licence revoked in a precedent-setting decision � the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario has suspended, but never removed, a licence solely because of noise issues. Days later, a judge reinstated the licence pending appeal, saying the venue would suffer "irreparable harm" if it was banned from serving alcohol.
"I can't say that it has never been obnoxious, because it has," Wicks says, pointing to times when the Docks has hosted outdoor concerts. "It's just one of those things you get used to."
`I hear the Docks on Algonquin ... sometimes it drives me nuts'
Sarah Willinsky, island resident
Algonquin island resident Sarah Willinsky hears things differently.
"I hear the Docks on Algonquin and it wakes me up," she says. "Sometimes I don't mind it, sometimes it drives me nuts. It depends what mood I'm in."
McQuinn thought the Docks issue was taken care of a couple years ago when he began taxiing an employee to the island each weekend to test sound levels. The trips tapered off after a while but began again with last week's controversy, McQuinn says.
The "sound guy" will likely spend weekends for the next while out on the island, McQuinn says. From 11 p.m. to 3 a.m., he walks around the island, walkie-talking information back to the nightclub on what he hears.
The Docks isn't the only thing McQuinn hears the islanders talking about.
There's the port authority, the airport, the airport bridge, the party boats, the dirty harbour, he says.
It's 2 a.m. As the water taxi roams into the island lagoon, the sound of the motor is the only noise.
McQuinn shuts off the engine; a lone cricket takes over.
The Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario has until January to appeal the judge's decision to reinstate the Docks' liquor licence.
"If I was the owner of the Docks and I had a liquor licence revoked, I would throw an all-ages party and be f-----g loud," Wicks says.
At 2:30 a.m., we float between the island and a bustling city in serene silence. Seconds later, Brooks and Dunn's "Hard Workin' Man" blasts through the air. The source? None other than McQuinn's own little party boat.
source:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...72154&t=TS_Home
| quote: |
| Originally posted by skip-f*ckn-intr 1) The islands terms of residence were made law, first by the Rae government and then with changes under Mike Harris. Since they were acts of the provincial pariliament, yes they were voted on, twice. The 99 year leases were a way of the province and the city ensuring that they hold title to the land. The prices of the houses are fixed based on the cost of the materials to build the homes, this was done to a) avoid giving islanders a lottery type wind fall and b) to avoid speculation. I am sure that there are a lot of islanders who would have been or would be happy to sell their homes at market rates, but the law forbids this. For better or worse. |
| quote: |
2) noise complaints after 11 pm don't require a sound pressure measurement, they rest on what i think is called a test of reasonableness. During hours before 11, I think that there is a sound pressure measurement required. As noted earlier peoples windows have been shaking in their frames sometimes. ( I will admit that that is third hand, but it does get pretty loud over there sometimes, and as a former resident of Adelaide and John streets, my idea of what constitutes loud is pretty tolerant. |
| quote: |
| 3) judging by the fact that part of the terms for the docks stay included paying $14700 in outstanding fines I would guess that the docks had been warned and then fined at least three times, but probably more. I do recall that when the speakers were turned towards Ashbridges Bay five or so years agp Tom Jackobek from the Beaches wanted the club shut down immediately. [/quoke] Tom Jakobek was a sensationalist freak. Thank god this guy didnt become mayor (the corruption allegations put a stop to that) I could go into personal anctidotes about this guy and what a sensationalist attention seeker he was. Jakobek is NOT a credible ally im sorry to say. And i know the incident you are talking about specifically. I will see if i can find a newspaper article from that time period. [quote] 4) I have no idea, but I would imagine that is the case. The Docks has taken great pains to demonstrate that their sound system keeps sound levels reasonable and so on. I would imagine that he feels he is being unfairly tarred with a brush more unfairly. I know that islanders have complained about noise from the docks in february...are there parties on Cherry beach in the winter? |
| quote: |
| 1) The docks lost their license because they had according to the findings by AGCO consistently ignored noise complaints for many years. I don't know about whether or not there had been complaints in the last year, but the Docks behavior had been in the past to ignore the law, and since there are very few remedies under the law and the $14000 in fines for previous noise violations had yet to be paid, the Alcohol and Gaming commission found them in violation of their license. |
| quote: |
| I don't know if Islanders run city hall, they have a city counsellor as do you. City council was not responsible for the Docks loss of their license it was the Alcohol and Gaming Commission who had over a month of hearings on the subject. Theirs was a finding based on the laws dealing with liquor licenses. |
| quote: |
| As for the idea that islanders simply should move, well sure, except that does that mean if someone opens a noisy club within earshot of any other residential area the residents should move? |
| quote: |
| There are families living on the islands who have been there literally for generations. It doesn't seem like a particularly fair or reasonable solution to tell people who have such strong historical links to a community to move in order to make way for an entertainment facility. So your point about the pub owners being there first could be seen in a different light when it comes to the islanders in question seeing as they were there before the docks. |
| quote: |
| I know that there are actually a few islanders who work on the party boats, and that the Empire Sandy is owned by a fomer islander, so it would seem counter intuitive to suggest that they want the party boats out of the picture. So I can't really comment on that. |
| quote: |
| As for the airport, if i am not mistaken the question is about jets and airport expansion. I think that if there are intercity jets flying into the airport, the waterfront will be pretty unpleasant, including the docks patio and drive-in. This is not opposed just by islanders but by pretty much everyone who lives on the harbour and by the film studios along the water and east as far as Pape. The rock in that snowball is that without expanded commuter air service the airport will continue to bleed money in perpetuity. I think if you support a vibrant waterfront, you should think carefully about whether the amount of air traffic proposed makes sense. |
Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.