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-- Winning the propoganda war
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quote:

Originally posted by ronk how the fuck did you conclude this by a picture that's supposed to be funny and laugh at the photographer that shot that "real" doctored photo? I do believe all the pics I see in the news. maybe 5% or less of them are fake. and I didn't vote for Olmert.

No I think you voted for Likud?

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley No I think you voted for Likud?

no.

quote:

Originally posted by ronk no.

Well in that case you must have voted for Bush or Kerry

a short clip that shows how U.N. Ambulances help terrorists.
from the filename it seems the clip is from 2004, so i guess these are Palestinians ..? but i'm not sure

here is the link:
CLIP LINK

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Why? It's a perfectly valid point. People are attempting to justify the actions of Israel by the actions of one photogropher by creating the impression that every picture of story to come out of Lebanon is false. Your country has just killed 1000 people and all you can do is take the piss out of the situation or try and make yourself feel less guilty by pretending none of it is actually happening. Hell, you're making up excuses to carry on the killing. Your country is punishing the entire population of Lebanon and Gaza just for three soldiers. But lets face it, this has NEVER been about the three soldiers. This is about Olmert trying to prove to people (like you who vote for him) that he has "strength" and while politicians in other countries might tour the country giving speaches, your PM kills 100s to get his population to vote him back in. And you have the fucking nerve to call ME stupid?!?! Just remember one thing - when you find excuses to justify Israel's actions in Lebanon and the occupied territories, you are supporting policies that will bring about a third intifada and God help you and your fellow citizens when that happens because I don't wish that on anyone. But it is going to happen. And innocent Israelis are going to pay the price for the same policies you support. Think about that maybe ok?

at first I gave you a benefit of the doubt but it's pretty much gone. So, with that said WILL YOU PLEASE JUST SHUT THE FUCK UP AND GO READ YOUR BELOVED FINKELSTEIN THEORIES FOR CHRISSAKES?

Fuck you're annoying - we get your fucking point and it ain't gonna change damn shit - neither the situation nor opinion that people have! fuck off already, you dweeb.



Oh, and here's a nice patch of sand for you to print out and pound on, in case real sand is not readily available to you:



p.s. thanks for your concern - somehow we managed without your help thus far and G-d willing we will manage from here on out. So, you can rest your weary little head and affirm yourself that you've done whatever you could to educate us, the dark and wayward masses.

And now, back to you pounding the sand.

piss off, you poofter nonce!

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Why? It's a perfectly valid point. People are attempting to justify the actions of Israel by the actions of one photogropher by creating the impression that every picture of story to come out of Lebanon is false.

It's not ONE photographer. if you read some of the links i've given earlier in this thread you will see that a lot of what is presented to you in the news is lies and is well controlled by Hizbulla that smartly uses the international press as one of their main weapons.
in my opinion these photoshop "fixes" by the reuters photographer have no importance at all.

quote:

Your country has just killed 1000 people and all you can do is take the piss out of the situation or try and make yourself feel less guilty by pretending none of it is actually happening. Hell, you're making up excuses to carry on the killing.

No one is pretending the the situation is not happaning. But I know my country does the best it can to minimize the civillian casualties. You may think now that most of Lebanon is alreay "flattened" or something but the simple fact it is far far from being true. Israel could have carpet bombed all these villiges in south lebanon (after throwing the leaflets ordering civilians to move north like it did). But all these villges are almost unharmed, and instead israeli soldiers are send inside to fight where they are exposed to Hizbulla arsenal of modern and advanced Russian anti-tank missiles - and killed daily.
Maybe you can suggest how would you handle Hizbulla better? And ensure that in a year or two a much larger rocket attack on Israel won't repeat. Try to imagine for a second that Hizbulla is controling a large part of your neigbouring non-aggresive country, that does notting to stop Hizbulla from reciving army supplies from your enemy countries (Iran and Syria).
Maybe reading some stuff about how Russia handled Chechniya, (and recived much smaller world condemnation) will give you an idea?

quote:

Your country is punishing the entire population of Lebanon and Gaza just for three soldiers. But lets face it, this has NEVER been about the three soldiers. This is about Olmert trying to prove to people (like you who vote for him) that he has "strength" and while politicians in other countries might tour the country giving speaches, your PM kills 100s to get his population to vote him back in. And you have the fucking nerve to call ME stupid?!?!

(Just if anyone misread your quote - it is not targeted to me, i never called George stupid and i also havn't voted for Oulmert).

Its not about the three soldiers. Its about the threat that must be removed somehow. Three soldiers were kidnapped, but why do you guys always forget about that ones that were killed at these 2 attacks, and also forget to mention that just minutes\hours BEFORE the soldiers were kidnapped, Hizbulla started launching rockets on northem israel (!!). can you imagine rockets are launched on your city from your neighbouring country on a bright day?? !

You also forget that since Israel's evacutation from Lebanon in 2000, there were about 19 incidents of rockets fired by Hizbulla, including the kidnapping of other 3 soldiers in 2000, few months after the evacuation.

quote:

Just remember one thing - when you find excuses to justify Israel's actions in Lebanon and the occupied territories, you are supporting policies that will bring about a third intifada and God help you and your fellow citizens when that happens because I don't wish that on anyone. But it is going to happen. And innocent Israelis are going to pay the price for the same policies you support. Think about that maybe ok?

In my opinon, what will bring about "third intifada" is the hypocratical support of the world to fancatic organinztions that seek mostly death and power, and you George don't see their claims as excuses. Nasralla have said not once that the main goal of his organizaion is the total eradication of Israel. that is his main goal - not the release of prisoners, not the end of the occupation and not the Sheeba farms. and the world also insitis to ignore the fact that one side launches intentional attacks on civillians, and the others fights for stabilization targeting Hizbulla that hides among Lebaneese civillians . One side already made peace with two past enemies and tried several times to do the same with the Palestinians (Maybe you should read about what israel offered in the Oslo and Kamp David peace talks). Just before current attacks, Oulmert travelled half of the world to discuss with world leaders his plans he called "the convergence plan" to evacuate almost all settelments from the West Bank without any palestinan gesture in return. Myabe that is the real mistake he did?

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Well in that case you must have voted for Bush or Kerry

nope. I do live in Israel.

quote:

Originally posted by ronk nope. I do live in Israel.

Just checkin!

quote:

Originally posted by Flotser It's not ONE photographer. if you read some of the links i've given earlier in this thread you will see that a lot of what is presented to you in the news is lies and is well controlled by Hizbulla that smartly uses the international press as one of their main weapons. in my opinion these photoshop "fixes" by the reuters photographer have no importance at all. No one is pretending the the situation is not happaning. But I know my country does the best it can to minimize the civillian casualties. You may think now that most of Lebanon is alreay "flattened" or something but the simple fact it is far far from being true. Israel could have carpet bombed all these villiges in south lebanon (after throwing the leaflets ordering civilians to move north like it did). But all these villges are almost unharmed, and instead israeli soldiers are send inside to fight where they are exposed to Hizbulla arsenal of modern and advanced Russian anti-tank missiles - and killed daily. Maybe you can suggest how would you handle Hizbulla better? And ensure that in a year or two a much larger rocket attack on Israel won't repeat. Try to imagine for a second that Hizbulla is controling a large part of your neigbouring non-aggresive country, that does notting to stop Hizbulla from reciving army supplies from your enemy countries (Iran and Syria). Maybe reading some stuff about how Russia handled Chechniya, (and recived much smaller world condemnation) will give you an idea? (Just if anyone misread your quote - it is not targeted to me, i never called George stupid and i also havn't voted for Oulmert). Its not about the three soldiers. Its about the threat that must be removed somehow. Three soldiers were kidnapped, but why do you guys always forget about that ones that were killed at these 2 attacks, and also forget to mention that just minutes\hours BEFORE the soldiers were kidnapped, Hizbulla started launching rockets on northem israel (!!). can you imagine rockets are launched on your city from your neighbouring country on a bright day?? ! You also forget that since Israel's evacutation from Lebanon in 2000, there were about 19 incidents of rockets fired by Hizbulla, including the kidnapping of other 3 soldiers in 2000, few months after the evacuation. In my opinon, what will bring about "third intifada" is the hypocratical support of the world to fancatic organinztions that seek mostly death and power, and you George don't see their claims as excuses. Nasralla have said not once that the main goal of his organizaion is the total eradication of Israel. that is his main goal - not the release of prisoners, not the end of the occupation and not the Sheeba farms. and the world also insitis to ignore the fact that one side launches intentional attacks on civillians, and the others fights for stabilization targeting Hizbulla that hides among Lebaneese civillians . One side already made peace with two past enemies and tried several times to do the same with the Palestinians (Maybe you should read about what israel offered in the Oslo and Kamp David peace talks). Just before current attacks, Oulmert travelled half of the world to discuss with world leaders his plans he called "the convergence plan" to evacuate almost all settelments from the West Bank without any palestinan gesture in return. Myabe that is the real mistake he did?

well said!

quote:

Originally posted by Flotser It's not ONE photographer. if you read some of the links i've given earlier in this thread you will see that a lot of what is presented to you in the news is lies and is well controlled by Hizbulla that smartly uses the international press as one of their main weapons. in my opinion these photoshop "fixes" by the reuters photographer have no importance at all.

I do think that there is a propaganda war being waged by fpcusing so much attention on the actions of this photographer and the other factors you mentioned, with the goal of directing attention away from what Israel is doing. A hell of a lot of people will feel less guilty about Israel's actions when they read about it in the news cos in the back of their mind they will be thinking "there's a good chance this did not happen, therefore it doesn't matter"

quote:

No one is pretending the the situation is not happaning. But I know my country does the best it can to minimize the civillian casualties. You may think now that most of Lebanon is alreay "flattened" or something but the simple fact it is far far from being true. Israel could have carpet bombed all these villiges in south lebanon (after throwing the leaflets ordering civilians to move north like it did). But all these villges are almost unharmed, and instead israeli soldiers are send inside to fight where they are exposed to Hizbulla arsenal of modern and advanced Russian anti-tank missiles - and killed daily.[quote] Maybe you can suggest how would you handle Hizbulla better? And ensure that in a year or two a much larger rocket attack on Israel won't repeat. Try to imagine for a second that Hizbulla is controling a large part of your neigbouring non-aggresive country, that does notting to stop Hizbulla from reciving army supplies from your enemy countries (Iran and Syria). Maybe reading some stuff about how Russia handled Chechniya, (and recived much smaller world condemnation) will give you an idea?

I'm not saying Israel does not attempt to minimise civillian casualties (because they obviously do - whether that is for PR purposes or whether they actually care about the civilians is another thing). But airstrikes against Hizballah members who are no longer in that position is not only pointless, but seems pretty much like collective punishment. What would I have done differently? No air strikes. I would have sent ground troops in en mass to minimise civilian casualties and to more effectively eliminate Hizballah threats. That's what I would have done for the short term. My general view of Lebanon is that it should have been the first stage for America's plans to democratise the Middle East (even before Palestine as domestic pressures effect how America deals with that issue). They should have poured money into that country and made it as successful as it was before the civil war. That would also involve investment in their military meaning they might be in a position to effectively deal with Hizballah themselves (as I'm sure they would like to). Also if you increased the standard of living for the poor south, maybe they wouldn't have to rely on Hizballah infrastructure for education and health care then maybe Hizballah (and on the same note Hamas) wouldn't enjoy as much support as they do now?

quote:

Its not about the three soldiers. Its about the threat that must be removed somehow. Three soldiers were kidnapped, but why do you guys always forget about that ones that were killed at these 2 attacks, and also forget to mention that just minutes\hours BEFORE the soldiers were kidnapped, Hizbulla started launching rockets on northem israel (!!). can you imagine rockets are launched on your city from your neighbouring country on a bright day?? ! You also forget that since Israel's evacutation from Lebanon in 2000, there were about 19 incidents of rockets fired by Hizbulla, including the kidnapping of other 3 soldiers in 2000, few months after the evacuation.

Like I said above, there are other ways to deal with this threat and ensuring that every single person in Southern Lebanon hates Israel and would support firing rockets there is not one of the best ways to deal with it. It does, however, give the masses the impression you are "doing something" about it. The public respond well to a good old military operation. Get a bit of revenge too. If Olmert had the bollocks to stand up against that, and said we're not gonna bomb Gaza/Lebanon cos that will make it worse therefore more Israelis will die, maybe we wouldn't be in this mess? But he is a coward. As are most Israeli leaders. They want to stay in power and that means bombing countries to give the appearance they are "doing something" cos they think they will be voted out otherwise

quote:

In my opinon, what will bring about "third intifada" is the hypocratical support of the world to fancatic organinztions that seek mostly death and power, and you George don't see their claims as excuses. Nasralla have said not once that the main goal of his organizaion is the total eradication of Israel. that is his main goal - not the release of prisoners, not the end of the occupation and not the Sheeba farms. and the world also insitis to ignore the fact that one side launches intentional attacks on civillians, and the others fights for stabilization targeting Hizbulla that hides among Lebaneese civillians . One side already made peace with two past enemies and tried several times to do the same with the Palestinians (Maybe you should read about what israel offered in the Oslo and Kamp David peace talks). Just before current attacks, Oulmert travelled half of the world to discuss with world leaders his plans he called "the convergence plan" to evacuate almost all settelments from the West Bank without any palestinan gesture in return. Myabe that is the real mistake he did?

The IRA had as a goal the reunification of Ireland (still do). Well, they put down their arms, do not mount any operations against the UK, and guess what? Ireland remains divided. The PLO's goal was the eradication of Israel. Now they fight Hamas because Hamas does not agree to recognise Israel!!! Most terrorist organisations have grand aims but half of it is rhetoric. Hizballah/Hamas cannot eradicate Israel (no matter how much they would like to) but I believe before Gaza was bombed Hamas were close to agreeing to recognise Israel. All I am saying is that times change so I do not add much weight to all these claims about certain groups wanting to conquere the world or Israel because I know in the past that once certain groups realise their aims cannot be achieved, their aims become modified. This is usually because their lives improve so support for terrorism is reduced (eg N Ireland) or the terrorists modify their aims as they believe there is something they can achieve (eg PLO wanting power over territory)

You're going to add in the religious element but I don't see Hamas/Hizballah as being fundamentaly different to other terrorist groups and I think that once certain conditions are met they will go the way other terrorist groups go when their support dries up...the task ahead is to make sure that support does dry up, and not get any bigger...and tell me, what does bombing Gaza/Lebanon do to that support?

quote:

Originally posted by emc^2 well said!

Why don't you ask Floster to give you a few lessons?

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