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quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley targetted before Iraq by the Islamists?

Because before the Iraqian war they had no excuse to attack you..
if they could bomb USA in 9/11 they could as well bomb UK who considered as USA ally..

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Alex (ISR) Because before the Iraqian war they had no excuse to attack you.. if they could bomb USA in 9/11 they could as well bomb UK who considered as USA ally..

+1

"Excuse" is the key word in that comment. The motivation behind these terrorist groups is to force their own ethos onto people. The notion that we can somehow find justification or even sympathy behind their methods of blowing up planes or causing innocent deaths by other means is both exactly what they want and disturbing. Not unlike other groups throughout history, today's modern "terrorists" want one thing: to force other people to think like them, or to kill those who won't. There is no negotiation or middle ground that they are seeking. Either you are one of them or you need to be killed, in their eyes. I find no way to justify or pawn the blame off to anyone except the ones committing these acts.

Those people AKA terorists are not looking for vengeance or fight back.. they just want to force you to beliave in Islam.. and if you dont..
you need to be killed..
You must understand that there is no one to blame in those acts, just those who justify those acts.
if USA will leave Iraq, Afganistan.. Israel will leave Lebanon.. Russia will leave Chechnya.. you think they will stop?
aaaaaa - wrong answer,
it will only give them power and motivation to fight the western society..

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley You think I'm not upset?! You think I have some kind of sympathy for these people?! Well you're wrong. My feelings towards them are prety much the same as yours. However, I consider myself rational enough to rise above my emotions and offer a reasonable explanation of why they would do such things (which in turn is useful for preventing such attacks). I have already said Pakistani maddrasses are the reason they get brainwashed (after being refered by fundamentalists living in this country). But I also acknowledge that one of the other reasons is our actions (unneccessary) against what they see as Muslims.

No I did not really think that, and I respect you, too many of us and I am guilty of it, resort to Mob Reaction when stuff like this happens. It is a good thing to know why these people want to hurt us, but in no way should we allow the "why" to change our beliefs. Especially when the "WHY" is based on hate and the total destruction of our freedoms
I would also agree that our stance toward the muslim world needs to change and change quick before the HATE that these animals preach becomes the norm. I still believe that the muslim culture is one of the purest of the all, however, its time to come out of the Dark Ages that these radicals are fighting so hard to keep, the muslim culture needs to stand up with one voice and state to the world, This Behaivor is not Acceptable, and we are a People that will no longer accept it. A pipe dream?? I would love to think that I would live long enough to see it happen...

first of all, i consider myelf a fairly free thinking and accepting person. but what we are dealing with here is extreemist mentality of people who are willing to give up their lives for a (stupid) cause.

how do we deal with this, moderatly.


by simple mathmatics

extreeme action (-) + moderate reaction (+) = net loss

problem is, how do you deter someone willing to die from a cause. threat of bodily harm obviously wont work. but if you threaten their family, relatives, neighboors.... then they may think twice.

I am in now way advocating the killing of anyone but if you were someone considering hijacking a plane and flyign it into a building, and you knew that by doing that someone was going to a obliterate your family / friends.... what decision would you make.

its easy to lay your life on the line for a cause, but could you make that decision for your parents, your cousins, your siblings, your spouse, your children?

The longer we give these people due legal process in reaction to their planned acts or commited acts, the longer they are going to continue to target the west with these sensless acts of violence...

i think the time of diplomacy is comming to a close end, and unless we want the world to be reduced to WW3, the time has come to take a hard line against the hard liners. Frankly i would love to be able to get on a plane without someone insterting their hand up my ass, be able to bring my nail clippers, be able to eat a airplane meal wtih a fork AND knife.

From my "Suicide Killers" threat (an interesting, albeit lenghty interview).

quote:

Unlike an electronic device, a suicide killer has until the last second the capacity to change his mind. In reality, he is nothing but a platform representing interests which are not his, but he doesn't know it.

These people are beyond brainwashed. They fight for a cause that offers them no personal gain (other than the belief that they'll finally get laid in a veritable harem when they die, hence the smiles on their faces right before they pull the trigger).

quote:

Originally posted by Dj O'Callaghan It was an American plane but it was on British soil and people died on the ground too.

Your example is irrelevant because it was not committed by Islamists. You might as well have used an IRA bombing as an example of Islamic terrorism against the UK before the Iraq War and it would have been just as irrelevant...

quote:

What's happened in Iraq cannot be changed. Weather you agree with it or not. I agree in some ways it would sway some moderate muslims into becoming more extreme in their views. It's been a hot bed waiting to happen for years George, face it quite a lot of Muslims hate us regardless of if you supported the Iraq war or not they wouldn't care about killing you they'd feel no remorse or guilt about it because your a westerner. Times are changing the younger generation of muslims in the UK are becoming more religious, their naive and gulliable this is what is leading them to become vulnerable to brainwashing radicals who slip underneath the radar due to relaxed immagration laws. As a whole the muslim community is becoming more segregated and isolated from the rest of British society.

If they are becoming more segregated it's as much to do with brainwashing as it is to do with attitudes like yours towards them from the wider British community. Still, you seem to be paying lip service to the fact that the Iraq War provoked these terrorists into attacking us and you have still to offer me an explanation as to why the UK (a Western society) has not been attacked before the Iraq War, when modern Political Islam has been active in the world for nearly a century...

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Alex (ISR) Because before the Iraqian war they had no excuse to attack you.. if they could bomb USA in 9/11 they could as well bomb UK who considered as USA ally..

When you say "excuse" do you mean "reason"?

From what everyone on here is saying about the Islamists, why would they need an excuse?!

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley When you say "excuse" do you mean "reason"? From what everyone on here is saying about the Islamists, why would they need an excuse?!

So they don't piss off the moderate Muslims who could turn their backs on them. When they have excuses, they have people who might not commit acts of extremism, but will assist in hiding them (or at least not turn them in). If the moderates all turned on the extremists, it would severely diminish their capabilities to inflict damage.

By the way, in my mind, these sort of attacks make little sense. Granted, they kill off a few hundred/thousand civilians, but they're not inflicting any major damage on the economic or power structure of the Western world. At least the 9/11 attacks attempted that when they hit the WTC and the Pentagon. All this does, in my eyes, is make them look worse to everyone around the world. Everyone complains about the Israeli bombings now that are killing civilians, but at least are also hitting strategic targets, too.

quote:

Originally posted by NeoPhono +1 "Excuse" is the key word in that comment. The motivation behind these terrorist groups is to force their own ethos onto people. The notion that we can somehow find justification or even sympathy behind their methods of blowing up planes or causing innocent deaths by other means is both exactly what they want and disturbing. Not unlike other groups throughout history, today's modern "terrorists" want one thing: to force other people to think like them, or to kill those who won't. There is no negotiation or middle ground that they are seeking. Either you are one of them or you need to be killed, in their eyes. I find no way to justify or pawn the blame off to anyone except the ones committing these acts.

No sympathy, no justification, simply understanding. Understanding can definately lead to sympathy or justification for some (not me), but it is also the path to eliminating the threat (or more to the point, not making the threat worse). If you cannot fathem why they would do such a thing then you have no way of defeating their aims.

You also demonstrate in incredibly poor knowledge of the history of terrorism if you think most terrorist groups had as their primary aim to force people to think like them and kill those that dont. I can only think of one such group in my experience that had such aims and those were the Thugee of India (a Hindu terrorist group operating from the 13th to the 19th centuries). Every other terrorist group I have come across in my experience has had specific political aims and Political Islam is no different (imo).

What are the political aims of the British Islamist terrorists? Well as nobody has as yet demonstrated that before 9/11 there was an Islamist threat to the UK then we can only conclude that the political aims of the British terrorists are to change the UK government's 'War on Terror' policy (meaning Iraq)

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Alex (ISR) Those people AKA terorists are not looking for vengeance or fight back.. they just want to force you to beliave in Islam.. and if you dont.. you need to be killed.. You must understand that there is no one to blame in those acts, just those who justify those acts. if USA will leave Iraq, Afganistan.. Israel will leave Lebanon.. Russia will leave Chechnya.. you think they will stop? aaaaaa - wrong answer, it will only give them power and motivation to fight the western society..

Or maybe without these legitimising conflicts they would have no success trying to convince ordinary Muslims to join their cause and would eventually die out?

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley When you say "excuse" do you mean "reason"? From what everyone on here is saying about the Islamists, why would they need an excuse?!

excuse = somebody to blame (USA, UK, ISRAEL ) for thier extrem behaviour.

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX No I did not really think that, and I respect you, too many of us and I am guilty of it, resort to Mob Reaction when stuff like this happens. It is a good thing to know why these people want to hurt us, but in no way should we allow the "why" to change our beliefs. Especially when the "WHY" is based on hate and the total destruction of our freedoms I would also agree that our stance toward the muslim world needs to change and change quick before the HATE that these animals preach becomes the norm. I still believe that the muslim culture is one of the purest of the all, however, its time to come out of the Dark Ages that these radicals are fighting so hard to keep, the muslim culture needs to stand up with one voice and state to the world, This Behaivor is not Acceptable, and we are a People that will no longer accept it. A pipe dream?? I would love to think that I would live long enough to see it happen...

Then it appears we are in agreement?

quote:

Originally posted by colonelcrisp first of all, i consider myelf a fairly free thinking and accepting person. but what we are dealing with here is extreemist mentality of people who are willing to give up their lives for a (stupid) cause. how do we deal with this, moderatly. by simple mathmatics extreeme action (-) + moderate reaction (+) = net loss problem is, how do you deter someone willing to die from a cause. threat of bodily harm obviously wont work. but if you threaten their family, relatives, neighboors.... then they may think twice. I am in now way advocating the killing of anyone but if you were someone considering hijacking a plane and flyign it into a building, and you knew that by doing that someone was going to a obliterate your family / friends.... what decision would you make. its easy to lay your life on the line for a cause, but could you make that decision for your parents, your cousins, your siblings, your spouse, your children? The longer we give these people due legal process in reaction to their planned acts or commited acts, the longer they are going to continue to target the west with these sensless acts of violence... i think the time of diplomacy is comming to a close end, and unless we want the world to be reduced to WW3, the time has come to take a hard line against the hard liners. Frankly i would love to be able to get on a plane without someone insterting their hand up my ass, be able to bring my nail clippers, be able to eat a airplane meal wtih a fork AND knife.

I have to apologise to everyone else in this thread because I've tried to be fairly civil so far but for this poster I shall make the following exception...

What a load of fucking shit

There, back to being civil now. Collective punishment has failed in Palestine. The Israelis demolish the house of any suicide bomber and does that make them think twice? No. They still do it and not only that, the rest of the Palestinians look at what Israel did and decide to join in the fun too. It makes the situation worse. What you are suggesting is to further radicalise British Muslims and make damn sure there are plenty more attacks against us in the future. Well done.

quote:

Originally posted by D.Edge this is what is confusing me. so why did we have lax immigration laws if we knew that it would be impossible to assimilate an incompatible culture (in this case, Islam) into Britain? was this deliberate?

Immpossible

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Or maybe without these legitimising conflicts they would have no success trying to convince ordinary Muslims to join their cause and would eventually die out?

I cant understand you.. your country had few terror acts.. today 6 planes almost cause the biggest terror act in the history, and still you are trying to justify them?

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Alex (ISR) excuse = somebody to blame (USA, UK, ISRAEL ) for thier extrem behaviour.

But why would they need an excuse? That's my point. If they simply hate the West, as most people on this thread are suggesting, why do they need to use Iraq as an excuse to attack us? They would have attacked us anyway...

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Alex (ISR) I cant understand you.. your country had few terror acts.. today 6 planes almost cause the biggest terror act in the history, and still you are trying to justify them?

WTF?!

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley WTF?!

I'm sorry, but can somebody please explain to me where exactly I have even tried to justify these attacks?!?!

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley I'm sorry, but can somebody please explain to me where exactly I have even tried to justify these attacks?!?!

Or maybe without these legitimising conflicts they would have no success trying to convince ordinary Muslims to join their cause and would eventually die out?

you think that they are normal people that you can talk to.. they are not!

or, maybe i understood you wrong so my bad

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley But why would they need an excuse? That's my point. If they simply hate the West, as most people on this thread are suggesting, why do they need to use Iraq as an excuse to attack us? They would have attacked us anyway...

Was my response to this question on the previous page really that bad?

quote:

Originally posted by Groundhog Boy Was my response to this question on the previous page really that bad?

It's certainly a good point you raise I'll give you that. It's not an opinion that can be proved however, same as my opinion.

The difference between my opinion and your opinion is that if I am right, and they committed these acts of violence as a response to the Iraq War, we can see a specific and convincing aim they hoped to achieve - forcing the UK to pull out of Iraq (it worked in Spain so why not here?).

If we follow your line of thinking, that they just hate the West and would have attacked regardless of the Iraq War, what exactly were they hoping to achieve from such an attack? To conquere the UK? To convince ordinary British folk to convert to Islam? I know you're going to say "to kill as many people as they can" but you talk about keeping people on their side, but if they want simply to kill as many people on their side, then that brings us back to my original question of why would they care about having the support of anybody???

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley It's certainly a good point you raise I'll give you that. It's not an opinion that can be proved however, same as my opinion. The difference between my opinion and your opinion is that if I am right, and they committed these acts of violence as a response to the Iraq War, we can see a specific and convincing aim they hoped to achieve - forcing the UK to pull out of Iraq (it worked in Spain so why not here?). If we follow your line of thinking, that they just hate the West and would have attacked regardless of the Iraq War, what exactly were they hoping to achieve from such an attack? To conquere the UK? To convince ordinary British folk to convert to Islam? I know you're going to say "to kill as many people as they can" but you talk about keeping people on their side, but if they want simply to kill as many people on their side, then that brings us back to my original question of why would they care about having the support of anybody???

I've actually just thought of something...

It seems irrelevant who is right or wrong, as you say that Iraq gave them an excuse, I say Iraq was the reason. So either way, if we stop such (unneccessary) actions in the future, they will have neither the excuse or the reason right? So the threat to my country would be reduced right?

Has a European country that wasnt involved in the Iraqi war been bombed yet?

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley I've actually just thought of something... It seems irrelevant who is right or wrong, as you say that Iraq gave them an excuse, I say Iraq was the reason. So either way, if we stop such (unneccessary) actions in the future, they will have neither the excuse or the reason right? So the threat to my country would be reduced right?

The threat to yours, maybe (still doubtful, as your country's already done enough by now in their eyes). I don't recall what the U.S. did to them that was so awful that caused 9/11, though, so I'd still be inclined to believe that the attacks would continue regardless if we were in Iraq or not. You could consider support for Israel to be the rationale, but it's not like we are the only country that supports them (though I'd claim we are the most powerful and vocal of their supporters).

Personally, I think that they find our western values to be a threat to their dying theocractic regimes. Muslims are moving to European and American countries and aren't required by law to behave like the extremist leaders think that they should. In the end, that's a threat to their control over people, which I believe religion is a tool to maintain.

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