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-- Just a few thoughts, please read
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quote:

Originally posted by Aquarian Stop watching CNN so much? Everybody thinks their time is the most epic, the most important. Truth is, the world is doing relatively pretty well right now. There's been far worse conflicts by the thousands where millions were killed. The problem is that today we're bombarded with all this gloomy information, and it gives people (especially americans such as yourself) the impression that the world is falling apart around them. You drive home from work and turn on the radio and all you hear about is how many people got killed in iraq today, then you get home, flip on your TV and you hear about a terrorist plot to blow up airliners, so you go on the internet and your homepage has a bunch of links about terrorism, iraq, etcetera. You're a prime example of the effects of the "culture of fear" that sociologists often talk about. Without realizing it, you end up viewing the world through the lens of pessimistic media. It affects how people lead their lives, and it affects how people make their decisions. It's no coincidence that so many americans keep firearms for protection and vote for extremely conservative leaders.

Ding.

The Middle East looked a lot worse during the Intifada, when dozens and dozens of Israelis were being blown up on the way to work or while eating pizza. And let's not even touch on the many full-scale offenses and counter-offenses that happened before that. Relatively speaking, the lid is still on the pot, and peace is more viable in the Middle East today than it has been for a long while. I think what's happening in Lebanon is terrible and wrong in many ways, but it certainly doesn't mean the sky is falling.

It's worth remembering that a higher percentage of humanity lives under stable democracies today than at any time in history. If I lived during the Cold War 50s, I'd be shitting bricks every other night.

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Originally posted by Cobalt Ding. The Middle East looked a lot worse during the Intifada, when dozens and dozens of Israelis were being blown up on the way to work or while eating pizza. And let's not even touch on the many full-scale offenses and counter-offenses that happened before that. Relatively speaking, the lid is still on the pot, and peace is more viable in the Middle East today than it has been for a long while. I think what's happening in Lebanon is terrible and wrong in many ways, but it certainly doesn't mean the sky is falling. It's worth remembering that a higher percentage of humanity lives under stable democracies today than at any time in history. If I lived during the Cold War 50s, I'd be shitting bricks every other night.

The problem is, as we've seen recently, something like 9/11 is still on the brink of occuring...I'm pretty sure it will happen, its just a question of when. Our War on Terror isnt solving shit.

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Originally posted by Clovis86 The problem is, as we've seen recently, something like 9/11 is still on the brink of occuring...I'm pretty sure it will happen, its just a question of when. Our War on Terror isnt solving shit.

This is true.

No amount of troops will kill an ideology spawned of religious fanaticism. I don't know the answer.

I used to think it was a symptom of poverty, and that focus on third-world development would help things. I still think that's a good idea, because huge gaps between societies are dangerous and destablizing. But most of the Islamic fundamentalists we've witnessed come from relatively middle-class or even well-to-do backgrounds. And the Middle East isn't the poorest region in the world either; you don't see many terrorists from subsaharan Africa or Bangladesh.

I don't know how it will resolve, but my point is that it's not any kind of existential crisis as Fascism or Communism presented, and that the world is generally less bloody now than it has ever been before.

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And the Middle East isn't the poorest region in the world either; you don't see many terrorists from subsaharan Africa or Bangladesh.

I dunno, it is pretty hard to describe what happened in Rwanda in the mid '90s as anything but "terror," and there were certainly many people involved in that. For a more recent example:

Check it

These people aren't flying planes into American buildings and all but -- damn. Notice the name of the murderous troops, though: "Lord's Resistance Army."

All these sick pieces of crap always seem to be doing the bidding of some "lord" or other.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Hawaii is thousands of miles from the mainland- it's hardly striking close to home for most of the 280 million American people. I doubt there'd be a climate of fear if America was attacked by a geographical technicality- Pearl Harbour was just attacking an American military base in the Pacific to most people.

not quite. america was set in its way to stay an isolationist society while hitler was fuckin europe up. once Japan bombed pearl harbor, america was outraged(when it wasnt even a state). America was fuckin pissed. very similar to 9/11. we went to war immediately after pearl harbor.
"just attacking an american military base in the pacific?"
not even close.
try again.

What you fail to realize, is that these people are as passionate about their cause as you are yours.

quote:

Originally posted by Allied Nations What you fail to realize, is that these people are as passionate about their cause as you are yours.

I think they are more so.

quote:

Originally posted by Cobalt This is true. No amount of troops will kill an ideology spawned of religious fanaticism. I don't know the answer. I used to think it was a symptom of poverty, and that focus on third-world development would help things. I still think that's a good idea, because huge gaps between societies are dangerous and destablizing. But most of the Islamic fundamentalists we've witnessed come from relatively middle-class or even well-to-do backgrounds. And the Middle East isn't the poorest region in the world either; you don't see many terrorists from subsaharan Africa or Bangladesh. I don't know how it will resolve, but my point is that it's not any kind of existential crisis as Fascism or Communism presented, and that the world is generally less bloody now than it has ever been before.

^
Islam needs better representation, in order to show to the world , how beautifuly comprehensive it is ! This should be focused on from day one at high schools , to PHD level teaching.

A Good example is Hamza Yusuf

Also , the stero-types about arabs and muslims in general should be erased from people's minds ( erase might be a fantasy , but at least reconsidered), along with equality on all levels , from the media , to the help and aid given from the west , to foreign policies etc ... There is alot of pressure on arabs/muslims !

The west must ask itself , why do those people hate us so much ?

These are indeed hard times , especially to the people in the middle east , but after the darkest hour of the night , comes the dawn !

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Originally posted by isthatacow2 not quite. america was set in its way to stay an isolationist society while hitler was fuckin europe up. once Japan bombed pearl harbor, america was outraged(when it wasnt even a state). America was fuckin pissed. very similar to 9/11. we went to war immediately after pearl harbor. "just attacking an american military base in the pacific?" not even close. try again.

America was pissed because Japan had attempted to knock out America's military presence in the Pacific, allowing her expansion in the region to continue without opposition. The fact that the US were lucky and the aircraft carrier fleet were out on manoeuvres was the only thing that stopped it actually happening.

It wasn't an attack on a civilian target and it offered no direct threat to the American people. It was an attack on a military target thousands of miles away for strategic reasons. Which has happened countless times in countless wars. It isn't something to strike fear into the heart of the average citizen- it's a fair game military target in the middle of the ocean.

Whatever you're trying to do by linking Pearl Harbour to 9/11, they're totally different scenarios. People don't give a shit when stuff happens thousands of miles away. The IRA bombed the fuck out of the UK many times, commmiting some horrific atrocities. Nobody in America gave a shit- in fact, there have been things to suggest that the Irish-American community supported terrorism against the UK. Nobody gives a shit when millions are massacred in Africa or South-East Asia. Nobody gives a shit when several Arabic countries declare war on Israel simultaneously on a holy day. But as soon as some American people die doing their everyday life on American soil, everyone is terrified because, for the first time in living memory, they could die and so could people they know who aren't just soldiers who volunteered to go into battle.

Terrorism is nothing new. Middle Eastern conflict is nothing new. Nuclear threat is nothing new. People around the world have had to live with one or more for decades now. But it's only when America has tasted it on a proper scale that they actually start caring, and making bullshit panicky hippy threads on TA.

just a curiosity, wtf has terrorism to do with the subjectivity of music?

.




<--- peace and unity through science, technology and music

whats a good track to play as background of this topic? I'm thinking

supermode - tell me why

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Originally posted by paranoik0 just a curiosity, wtf has terrorism to do with the subjectivity of music?

they are both subjective actually.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J America was pissed because Japan had attempted to knock out America's military presence in the Pacific, allowing her expansion in the region to continue without opposition. The fact that the US were lucky and the aircraft carrier fleet were out on manoeuvres was the only thing that stopped it actually happening.

wrong. america was pissed because they attacked something that was part of america. the citizens of america didnt give a fuck if it was a "military presence" in the pacific. it was american men who died that day. people from the mainland US.

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It wasn't an attack on a civilian target and it offered no direct threat to the American people. It was an attack on a military target thousands of miles away for strategic reasons. Which has happened countless times in countless wars. It isn't something to strike fear into the heart of the average citizen- it's a fair game military target in the middle of the ocean.

wrong again. after pearl harbor, millions of americans actually feared an invasion by japan, and was "something to strike fear into the heart of the average citizen."

quote:

Whatever you're trying to do by linking Pearl Harbour to 9/11, they're totally different scenarios. People don't give a shit when stuff happens thousands of miles away. The IRA bombed the fuck out of the UK many times, commmiting some horrific atrocities. Nobody in America gave a shit- in fact, there have been things to suggest that the Irish-American community supported terrorism against the UK. Nobody gives a shit when millions are massacred in Africa or South-East Asia. Nobody gives a shit when several Arabic countries declare war on Israel simultaneously on a holy day. But as soon as some American people die doing their everyday life on American soil, everyone is terrified because, for the first time in living memory, they could die and so could people they know who aren't just soldiers who volunteered to go into battle.

there are more similarities between pearl harbor and 9/11 then you might think. i actually watched a documentary by a UW professor about this very topic. i dont really want to get into it, but both attacks were surprise attacks. the biggest striking similarity is that they both caused america to enter a war. you also say that people dont give a shit when someone bombs africa or something. NO SHIT! thats not what was even being talked about. were talking about whether people would care if someone bombed US people and US land.

quote:

Terrorism is nothing new. Middle Eastern conflict is nothing new. Nuclear threat is nothing new. People around the world have had to live with one or more for decades now. But it's only when America has tasted it on a proper scale that they actually start caring, and making bullshit panicky hippy threads on TA.

thank you. i dont think everyone on this thread knew that terrosrism wasnt new.

quote:

Originally posted by isthatacow2 wrong. america was pissed because they attacked something that was part of america. the citizens of america didnt give a fuck if it was a "military presence" in the pacific. it was american men who died that day. people from the mainland US.

The citizens of America weren't the ones who decided to go to war. America the nation was pissed because the Japanese attacked a military target, which is the standard method of warfare. Soldiers getting killed is what soldiers are paid to do. There's nothing shocking about people who expect to be shot at being shot at. 9/11 happened to civilians in the middle of a city in the middle of America (no, not geographically the middle). Pearl Harbour wasn't American soil- it was just a military base on an island thousands of miles away that wasn't even a State at the time.

quote:

wrong again. after pearl harbor, millions of americans actually feared an invasion by japan, and was "something to strike fear into the heart of the average citizen."

It was a load of bullshit though. Japan was never going to invade and they never came anywhere near the US. It's not as if anything happened or was ever likely to happen because after Midway the entire initiative changed hands.

quote:

there are more similarities between pearl harbor and 9/11 then you might think. i actually watched a documentary by a UW professor about this very topic. i dont really want to get into it, but both attacks were surprise attacks. the biggest striking similarity is that they both caused america to enter a war. you also say that people dont give a shit when someone bombs africa or something. NO SHIT! thats not what was even being talked about. were talking about whether people would care if someone bombed US people and US land.

Exactly. So why the fuck is everyone worked up about this whole Israel thing? Israel's been fucked over by its neighbours many times. Why is it this time that people are predicting doomsday? Suddenly, Americans are sensitive to things they didn't give a shit about a decade ago. People have said in this thread this is one of the most peaceful and secure times for many years. But CNN starts piping Middle East pictures into living rooms and everyone's now afraid.

quote:

thank you. i dont think everyone on this thread knew that terrosrism wasnt new.

Thanks for replying to a piece of rhetoric. But even so, there's only been a "war on terror" (an often pre-emptive war) for the last few years, even though terrorist cells are much older. Al-Qaeda has been around since the 1980s- hell, America used to give it fucking weapons when it was fighting the Soviets. Bin Laden and chums sat there for twenty years and nobody gave a shit, but now they do. Acting like terrorism is a new thing. Because it's happened to them.

Re: Just a few thoughts, please read

quote:

Originally posted by globalelectro

You are just a scared American.

Dont worry only you will face the war; but rest of the world outside is pretty safe to live in.

Yeah if you want to call it a 'World War' or a "'Global' war on 'Terror'" and shit; you may call it that way.. but actually its just your own little war; whole world outside is just chilling and laughing at you guys.

funny that Americans claim they had all rights to attack Japan when there were concentration camps in USA where more than 120,000 Japanese Americans were interned behind barbed wire during World War II. And over half were children.
Is this even mentioned in the american history books?

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J The citizens of America weren't the ones who decided to go to war. America the nation was pissed because the Japanese attacked a military target, which is the standard method of warfare. Soldiers getting killed is what soldiers are paid to do. There's nothing shocking about people who expect to be shot at being shot at. 9/11 happened to civilians in the middle of a city in the middle of America (no, not geographically the middle). Pearl Harbour wasn't American soil- it was just a military base on an island thousands of miles away that wasn't even a State at the time.

American citizens didnt decide to go because they cant do that. They dont have the power, but when America went to war, almost all of the country was supportive of it.

Soldiers arent paid to die, they are paid to protect the nation, and some happend to get killed. Why would they get paid, if they are going to die? Also, knowing that America was a neutrial nation, why the fuck does Japan decide to attack them?

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J It was a load of bullshit though. Japan was never going to invade and they never came anywhere near the US. It's not as if anything happened or was ever likely to happen because after Midway the entire initiative changed hands.

And how would you know Nostradamus? Why would they attack Pearl Harbor and not want to come even further? Isnt that part of the war, where you want to invade a country. Sure, they didnt have the power to do it, but it might of been thier intentions. Or if not that, maybe caused alot of other deaths.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Exactly. So why the fuck is everyone worked up about this whole Israel thing? Israel's been fucked over by its neighbours many times. Why is it this time that people are predicting doomsday? Suddenly, Americans are sensitive to things they didn't give a shit about a decade ago. People have said in this thread this is one of the most peaceful and secure times for many years. But CNN starts piping Middle East pictures into living rooms and everyone's now afraid.

So your solution is to not do anything about it? Just like any other goverment in the world, Americans too do change interess in things. 25 years ago, they had different goals, now they have different goals. Everybody is linking this to the Isreal thing, but the terror plot in the U.K is something big, they said 10 planes would of gotten blown in the air. Thats almost 2000-2500 people dead. I dont know, thats pretty big numbers to me.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Thanks for replying to a piece of rhetoric. But even so, there's only been a "war on terror" (an often pre-emptive war) for the last few years, even though terrorist cells are much older. Al-Qaeda has been around since the 1980s- hell, America used to give it fucking weapons when it was fighting the Soviets. Bin Laden and chums sat there for twenty years and nobody gave a shit, but now they do. Acting like terrorism is a new thing. Because it's happened to them.

Like I said, it was 25 years ago. Events change.

quote:

Originally posted by RebeL9 funny that Americans claim they had all rights to attack Japan when there were concentration camps in USA where more than 120,000 Japanese Americans were interned behind barbed wire during World War II. And over half were children. Is this even mentioned in the american history books?

Yes it is and:
"The American camps were only meant to isolate the Japanese, in contrast to the Nazi concentration camps which existed to eliminate their captives."

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japane...ican_internment

quote:

Originally posted by stevieboy32808 Yes it is and: "The American camps were only meant to isolate the Japanese, in contrast to the Nazi concentration camps which existed to eliminate their captives." Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japane...ican_internment

Exactly.

Also, President Reagan appologized about what happend, and I think he paid each of the living people that were in those camps, about $100,000, or so. Not sure about the exact number.

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Originally posted by Kapedan I think he paid each of the living people that were in those camps, about $100,000, or so. Not sure about the exact number.

you shouldn't be assuming.

quote:

Originally posted by Kapedan I think he paid each of the living people that were in those camps, about $100,000, or so. Not sure about the exact number.

quote:

Originally posted by isthatacow2 there are more similarities between pearl harbor and 9/11 then you might think. i actually watched a documentary by a UW professor about this very topic. i dont really want to get into it, but both attacks were surprise attacks.

correct me if i'm wrong but roosevelt knew something was going to go down at pearl harbor but he ignored it

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Originally posted by Azz3D correct me if i'm wrong but roosevelt knew something was going to go down at pearl harbor but he ignored it

i've heard of something like that, but i believe it's just a theory.

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Originally posted by Kapedan American citizens didnt decide to go because they cant do that. They dont have the power, but when America went to war, almost all of the country was supportive of it.

I don't see the relevance to my point here.

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Soldiers arent paid to die, they are paid to protect the nation, and some happend to get killed. Why would they get paid, if they are going to die? Also, knowing that America was a neutrial nation, why the fuck does Japan decide to attack them?

Of course they are. The military literally hands their family a big sum of money if they get killed. It's an inherent risk in the job. Soldiers who don't expect to risk death at some point are pretty shit soldiers. They should accept the possibility.

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And how would you know Nostradamus? Why would they attack Pearl Harbor and not want to come even further? Isnt that part of the war, where you want to invade a country. Sure, they didnt have the power to do it, but it might of been thier intentions. Or if not that, maybe caused alot of other deaths.

I've said why they attacked Pearl Harbour- to gain unopposed expansion into the Pacific. As the war showed, Japan did not have the resources to wage war for any length of time. Invading such a large and wealthy country was beyond their capability. Invading a bunch of islands was not.

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So your solution is to not do anything about it? Just like any other goverment in the world, Americans too do change interess in things. 25 years ago, they had different goals, now they have different goals. Everybody is linking this to the Isreal thing, but the terror plot in the U.K is something big, they said 10 planes would of gotten blown in the air. Thats almost 2000-2500 people dead. I dont know, thats pretty big numbers to me.

I haven't said anything about my "solution". This has fuck all to do with my political beliefs, it's entirely to do with scare-mongering. The US has been involved with Israel for decades and there have been terrorist plots for decades. 2k+ people is a big number for a terrorist attack, but such a big plot was unlikely to work more than once- and 9/11 has already happened. And, as I said, 2k people seems to be worth a lot more when they're American than when they're African or Asian.

quote:

Like I said, it was 25 years ago. Events change.

You say it as is the process is irrelevant. My argument is simply that Americans in particular are predicting doom simply because they're finally feeling the toll. For millions of people the world has been a shit place forever- it's no closer now than ever to doomsday. My posts have been attacking this rather self-centred attitude by the American people, to suddenly go into panic because they're under threat.

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