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-- The Debates: Issue #3 - Gun Control
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quote:

Originally posted by ABTsportsline this is great... two guys from minnesota duking it out on TA.... fight fight fight! my money's on Marc! -ABT-

YEAH!! they should go on that Minnesota show where peeps bowl each other to decide who is right... late/

Vikings suck.

If you carry a gun, you might me tempted to use it

yes, the vikings do suck.

as far as those who want to give guns only to military/police and trust them a lot:

1. This ignores imports. Illegal guns can be acquired from other countries even if the US ban is 100% effective.
2. It ignores that millions of guns are in the US - a large number are already illegal and more are unregistered, so good luck recalling them.
3. Police are people too (they're still evil)... see that black guy in New York who got shot 43 times (that means they had to reload) because he held up his wallet and they "thought it was a gun"
4. The gov't is corrupt - the CIA sells narcotics in LA, etc etc.... there is no reason to trust people in the military and police more than yourself.

I welcome more debate, I'm bored. (and the other bulletin board I talk about politics on is down).

quote:

Originally posted by ABTsportsline If any of your suggestions would have been rational, i assure you the governments would have implemented them by now. Remember the real guys running our countries are smarter than most of us put together... it doesn't just come down to "thinking of a new law", it also comes down to thinking of the consequences, what will be the outcome? -ABT-

Ahahahaha... ABT, I respect most of your opinions regarding music, but this is ludicrous. Politicians don't make policy based on what is right, or best for everyone. they make policy based on power and money. that means, they make policy to either get reelected, have more control or get more donations.

Want proof that politicians don't even believe in their claimed "ideologies" (which is BS in the US, since neither of the major parties has a platform that has any principle to it)? The Republicans shot down a lot of budget packages that the GOP had formerly pushed when Clinton sent them to Congress because they were afraid of Clinton getting credit. That decision is political, not ideological/utilitarian. This doesn't even begin to describe pork barrel spending and pet projects that all kinds of politicians engage in to please campaign contributers.

The people running our country aren't smarter than us... well, maybe they are, cuz they were smart enough to get the dumb majority to elect them. But even if that's true, I refuse to surrender my free will, choices and decision making powers to them because somebody made them gods. Just because the average person is dumb doesn't mean the politician is smarter than me.

I'm taking the power back.

^^^ hehe i appreciate your honesty about "agreeing with me" usually (BTW on which music subjects? i almost never post in music discussion! )

if you re-read my post, i said (and stressed) that the real guys that run this country.... blah blah blah....

the politicans don't run this country... don't be so naive. The politicians are just figureheads... puppets at best. Who runs this country? those ********************* *************************** *************************** ***************************** ********** ******************* *******************. (edited by the US Government. Your user "ABTsportsline" knows too much) ....are the ones REALLY running this country.

Cheers
-ABT-

quote:

Originally posted by ABTsportsline ^^^ hehe i appreciate your honesty about "agreeing with me" usually (BTW on which music subjects? i almost never post in music discussion! ) if you re-read my post, i said (and stressed) that the real guys that run this country.... blah blah blah.... the politicans don't run this country... don't be so naive. The politicians are just figureheads... puppets at best. Who runs this country? those ********************* *************************** *************************** ***************************** ********** ******************* *******************. (edited by the US Government. Your user "ABTsportsline" knows too much) ....are the ones REALLY running this country. Cheers -ABT-

ahhahahha...LOL....SLICK ....that was real good....

I'll admit that your conspiracy theory is quite a good recovery, but it has one problem - the rest of you post contradicts it. The evil puppeteers wouldn't be out to protect the public, so one shouldn't expect the government to have implemented our good suggestions.

(music posts I refer to are usually ones in the rip on oakey threads)

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Dingel I'll admit that your conspiracy theory is quite a good recovery, but it has one problem - the rest of you post contradicts it. The evil puppeteers wouldn't be out to protect the public, so one shouldn't expect the government to have implemented our good suggestions. (music posts I refer to are usually ones in the rip on oakey threads)

LoL @ the rip oakey threads.... thanks.

as far as everything else, i dont contradict myself.... what i believe is not a conspiracy theory... its just the advisors and the groups that give all the money to parties during elections are the ones who's say really goes.... and of course you have the 3-tier system... and i don't refer to their choices as being the "safest", but their choices being the "best" in interests of popularity, reasonability, practicality, and safety all combined.

Think about it... as wrong and bad as many people think this country is being run, they're doing a pretty damn good job.... you have to keep track of and maintain a society of 260 million people... its not easy. Also count that 80% or so are content in their freedoms. You can't please all the people all the time. Also keep in mind that politicians either agree or disagree on all topics... there is ALWAYS a party you agree with... When it comes down to it, you can help decide the laws.

Anyway, this subject is beaten to death already...

-ABT-

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Dingel Okay, your interp of the American gov't is kinda wanky. The president isn't a monarchy, he's democratically elected. The Supreme Court isn't an oligarchy, it's a politically insulated institution that is based upon the results of a democratic (okay, technically the Electoral College is a democratic republican method) election procress. the government is oppressive if 51% of people vote to strip the entire population of their guns, which are their personal property. That's a violation of rights. Rights should only be violated as a penalty for violating others' rights (you can't live in society if you're a murderer, you give up that right and get to sit in jail.)

Aristotle formed the original blueprint for types of gevernment. There were 6 intotal, 3 "good" forms and 3 "bad" forms. The good are monarchy, aristocracy, and democracy. (my bad on the oligarch above, slipped my mind... i meant aristocracy) the bad are tyranny, oligarchy, and anarchy. Montisquieu (SP?) a few centuries later, decided that a perfect government "separates the power" and Madison, the "Father of the COnstitution" used past experience (Aristotle, Montisquieu) and wrote the foundation for our government. Basically, our system is democracy and officials are democratically elected (1 point for POWER TO THE PEOPLE) and each branch has certain powers that are checked by the other two so's to not give up our personal freedoms and rights to the will of the gov't (2 points for POWER TO THE PEOPLE) officals and leaders. Lastly, OVERALL, the three branches do represent the three "good," pure forms of government, which do not turn bad (aristotle said that each good form would eventually turn bad due to human nature, sin, greed, etc.) because they force each other not to. I think that these three branches, combined with a bipartisan legislation, keeps our rights and freedoms as citizens stable until an issue powerful enough to pass through the loops arises. That issue may then be considered a good enough change to better EVERYONE in society and worthy of ratification into our constitution or lawbooks.

I think overall thats a pretty good statement... and I just woke up.

Cheers,
Marc

!

quote:

Originally posted by biznology YEAH!! they should go on that Minnesota show where peeps bowl each other to decide who is right... late/

Isn't it called "Lets Bowl?" HAA good call though.. this year I found out that my school has a Varsity Bowling Team!!~! Im pissed I missed out on that, I love to bowl.

-M

Mwuahha, bowling is one of those things that is very fun, but you don't feel like it should be considered a sport.

I just have one question. Where do most criminals get their guns? I'm guessing some percentage get them from illegal imports, but I'm guessing the vast majority of criminals get their guns by stealing them from "good gun carrying americans." I would appreciate any evidence to disprove what I mentioned above. If what I said was true, then not allowing good people to buy guns will eventually lead to less criminals getting new guns. And if you couple this with a intense program in which you take away the guns criminals currently have then the total amount of guns criminals will have will decrease drastically. That sounds like a good idea to me.

I say the real solution would be to switch all the real guns with chocolate guns and then when a criminal is trying to mug someone and the guy takes a bite out of his gun.. man we'd all be laughing!

-M

quote:

Originally posted by Excite All I have to say is..if u don't live in the U.S. then I don't care what you think about gun control/death penalty. Our culture is different, our history is different. I've debated and analyzed the issue for years and I think we ought to stay with the status quo.

Very well-said.
You can't compare the USA with Europe because they represent completely different cultures, histories, and mentalities. What makes sense in the US doesn't make sense in Europe.

In America, the gun issue is tied very strongly into the general culture of the "Wild West", the Frontier, etc. If you're familiar with American history you know what I'm talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by Eugene Very well-said. You can't compare the USA with Europe because they represent completely different cultures, histories, and mentalities. What makes sense in the US doesn't make sense in Europe. In America, the gun issue is tied very strongly into the general culture of the "Wild West", the Frontier, etc. If you're familiar with American history you know what I'm talking about.

Good public policy principles apply to all people, no matter where they live. Different histories and mentalities don't matter (although mentalities might prevent the implementation of good policy) in terms of the rules of respecting people's autonomy and what the role of government is. It's possible that different culture would change policy, but that's only if a country's residents believe that rape, murder or whatever is okay.

Gun control is bad, be it in the US or UK. Violent crime is up in Britain after its 1997 ban on firearms, the same thing is true in areas of the USA that ban guns..... ouch.

Its a damn tough issue, but I think in regards to the US gun situation its pretty well impossible to have true 'gun control' ... Like has been said before there are tons of laws on gun control.

Much like illegal drugs, the US has a thirst for guns, and its very difficult to really control it.

The question is how do you remove more guns from criminals without hurting the 'rights' of citizens who use guns responsibly.

I do think the Americans are a bit too gun crazy, and this is coming from someone who was once part of a gun club

I find rifles, especially target shooting to be very enjoyable. I've always had this obsession with snipers and the awe they have...

I think that more guns in a neighbourhood do not make it safer, I think its pretty safe to say a house with gun(s) is probably more dangerous than a house without one. So many domestic disturbances turn into violence, and often guns turn them into tradgedies...

But then again you have knifes in houses too!

Damn tough issue, I really don't consider myself in any way truly informed on the subject.

Just don't ban my rifles in Canada, I want to be able to kill things from a long distance!

quote:

Originally posted by Thor I find rifles, especially target shooting to be very enjoyable. I've always had this obsession with snipers and the awe they have... I think that more guns in a neighbourhood do not make it safer, I think its pretty safe to say a house with gun(s) is probably more dangerous than a house without one. So many domestic disturbances turn into violence, and often guns turn them into tradgedies... But then again you have knifes in houses too!

1: Target shooting and hunting RULES! Both very enjoyable activities, and thats why you cant just say, "ban all guns." Theyre both completely legit.

2: Bingo, I believe that a handgun in the house is almost the worst thing to leave around. Kids who see one sometimes cant differentiate whats real and whats not (not to say they think its a cap gun, but they might think its a toy) and can easily kill someone. Not to mention the "columbine" kids who see no other way out than shooting their school.

3: Knives arent as easy to kill someone with and arent so intriguing. How many knives can shoot out little bullets that go through stuff??!? Besides the one in FF7.. or is it 8??

-Marc

well Marc here's something to think about :
(i keep my guns locked in a safe in my house)

the government could require you to keep your guns locked in a safe in your house, but that is infringing on your rights... some people who live alone or don't have kids have no need to "hide" guns in their house or lock them away... by law, you can carry your guns in your house, do anything you want with them b/c its YOUR house..... if the government tried to regulate these rules, a LOT of people would get pissed off. My dad has had several handguns in this house for over 20 years.... we never had any "incidents" or problems.
Like i said, the number of problems is minute... for every househould where a kid gets a hold of his dads gun and shoots himself, there are tens of thousands of people who don't have problems.
By following your guy's logic, we should outlaw "all cars" b/c a couple of people got drunk and killed others. Same exact situation, really. Because a couple of people abused the privilege, doesn't mean we should disallow everyone the ability.

cheers!

-ABT-

quote:

Originally posted by ABTsportsline well Marc here's something to think about : (i keep my guns locked in a safe in my house) the government could require you to keep your guns locked in a safe in your house, but that is infringing on your rights... some people who live alone or don't have kids have no need to "hide" guns in their house or lock them away... by law, you can carry your guns in your house, do anything you want with them b/c its YOUR house..... if the government tried to regulate these rules, a LOT of people would get pissed off. My dad has had several handguns in this house for over 20 years.... we never had any "incidents" or problems. Like i said, the number of problems is minute... for every househould where a kid gets a hold of his dads gun and shoots himself, there are tens of thousands of people who don't have problems. By following your guy's logic, we should outlaw "all cars" b/c a couple of people got drunk and killed others. Same exact situation, really. Because a couple of people abused the privilege, doesn't mean we should disallow everyone the ability. cheers! -ABT-

I think a BIG problem is that so many gun owners are just really quite bad at using them. I know for me personally that under pressure and a life threatening situation I could shoot accurately at someone attempting to kill me or anyone else for that matter.

But too often the cases of people 'defending' themselves is stories of people shooting their neighbour, wife, kids, dog, or unloading a beretta at an intruder and missing every shot!

I strongly believe in approaching guns like the Swiss do, make everyone who wants a license have to take some real training. I mean too many morons hold a gun and have no idea what to do with it when the time comes

I like the idea of responsible gun owners who have lock boxes or those trigger locks. I mean yeah the odds are quite low, but why take the chance with your loved ones?

If I own a gun when I have kids, I would make sure it was safe from them getting at it, not to mention when they were old enough I would take them to a gun club and let them learn what these things can do.

Here's what I love, screw handguns they are just dangerous



Anyone have $9000 US dollars to loan me?

quote:

Originally posted by Thor Here's what I love, screw handguns they are just dangerous Anyone have $9000 US dollars to loan me?

jesus i think id just spend the money on mushrooms! late/

Robby, I totally agree with you, but because of the few people that screw things up we need regulations.. its because of them that we actually need a government at all! but all in all, i am with you all the way. the porblem is the fact that not everyone (like you, your dad) can handle having a firearm accessible. unfortunaltey this screws things up for everyone else.

-Marc

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