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quote:

Originally posted by Pinokio Spirit I totally Agree with you I have cried of happiness over 900 times "Without any drugs" and there is no need for drugs to enjoy music. I'm not saying there is a need for drugs to enjoy music. I'm saying that there are drugs that goes better with some music genres. Do You think there is coincidence that X is famous in the EDM Scene, than any other genre of music? I don't think it's coincidence, I thinks drugs are in certain way related to music.

They are related to music because they are often influenced by it but I think drugs are a way people experience other states of consciousness and then create music which helps in this process. But from my experience over the years with this music, the music in and of itself IS the drug. I mean what it comes down to is tribal ritual. Tribal peoples have used drugs since the dawn of human kind with certain herbs and plants that produce hallucionations. What they are trying to do is have an "experience" and this experience is usually spiritual. And the same thing can be experienced without the use of drugs, which is something i'm going to devote a lot of time to once I get my degree in Psychology (transpersonal psychology to be exact) and it deals with altered states and mystical or spiritual experience. Basically drugs are an "easy" way of experiencing these things, but plenty of people over the years have been able to have ecstatic and mystical experiences without the use of drugs. And definitely music and sound is one of these ways...it's a very significant way.

This is also helped along by drumming..rhythms, and because EDM is beat-based music with drums, the idea of using drugs with this kind of music is not just a conicidence, it's kind of like a revival. That's what the whole rave scene was about, but also the psychedelic movement in the 60s, and that music was influenced by drugs as well, and was rhythmic. So it's nothing new, but first and foremost, like I said, is the music which can influence the experience you have.

It's what you make of it really. I guess with me...I have an active imagination and I am able to imagine things with the music and because you have Synaethesia, you can as well. So we really don't need drugs, but someone who might not be as attached to the music or have as active of an imagination...might feel they need it.

And X just messes with chemicals in the brain that really shouldn't be messed with to the levels that X does....this isn't propaganda as some would say..it's pretty much established in the medical community. The seratonin levels are WAY too elevated with that drug, and it destroys neurons (which can never be replaced)...and eventually those seratonin levels will drop and keep dropping till your in a state of depression or a state similar to catanoia (almost emotionless)...it's kind of like being Bi-Polar...and who wants to be that? I mean this is with heavy useage but even with light useage, there have been some tests done with EEGs that have shown damage done with just one pill. Drugs are addicting...it's not rocket science for anyone to figure that out.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RJT Alright, well as you clearly fail to understand even the most basic grammar (acceptable, considering it's likely English isn't your first language) and/or are simply too dense to understand why this is a poor thread/question in general, we'll just leave it here. Thanks for playing!

why is it a bad thread? the effects drugs have on listening to music is something that has been researched+studied a few times in various universities. i dont think they looked at the issue and said this is stupid, and start preaching about how you shouldn't need drugs to appreciate music (which was never contested in the first place).

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 They are related to music because they are often influenced by it but I think drugs are a way people experience other states of consciousness and then create music which helps in this process. But from my experience over the years with this music, the music in and of itself IS the drug. I mean what it comes down to is tribal ritual. Tribal peoples have used drugs since the dawn of human kind with certain herbs and plants that produce hallucionations. What they are trying to do is have an "experience" and this experience is usually spiritual. And the same thing can be experienced without the use of drugs, which is something i'm going to devote a lot of time to once I get my degree in Psychology (transpersonal psychology to be exact) and it deals with altered states and mystical or spiritual experience. Basically drugs are an "easy" way of experiencing these things, but plenty of people over the years have been able to have ecstatic and mystical experiences without the use of drugs. This is also helped along by drumming..rhythms, and because EDM is beat-based music with drums, the idea of using drugs with this kind of music is not just a conicidence, it's kind of like a revival. That's what the whole rave scene was about, but also the psychedelic movement in the 60s, and that music was influenced by drugs as well, and was rhythmic. So it's nothing new, but first and foremost, like I said, is the music which can influence the experience you have. It's what you make of it really. I guess with me...I have an active imagination and I am able to imagine things with the music and because you have Synaethesia, you can as well. So we really don't need drugs, but someone who might not be as attached to the music or have as active of an imagination...might feel they need it. And X just messes with chemicals in the brain that really shouldn't be messed with to the levels that X does....this isn't propaganda as some would say..it's pretty much established in the medical community. The seratonin levels are WAY too elevated with that drug, and it destroys neurons (which can never be replaced)...and eventually those seratonin levels will drop and keep dropping till your in a state of depression or a state similar to catanoia (almost emotionless)...it's kind of like being Bi-Polar...and who wants to be that? I mean this is with heavy useage but drugs are addicting...it's not rocket science for anyone to figure that out.

Thanks
You are very smart
I agree with what you said

This is your brain on X

quote:

Originally posted by stev�sto why is it a bad thread? the effects drugs have on listening to music is something that has been researched+studied a few times in various universities. i dont think they looked at the issue and said this is stupid, and start preaching about how you shouldn't need drugs to appreciate music (which was never contested in the first place).

I didn't preach for a moment about how you shouldn't need drugs. By all means, need drugs as much as you'd like.

And I'd hardly place this thread in the same category as any university study remotely having to do with psychoactive chemicals and their relationship to music.

quote:

Originally posted by Pinokio Thanks You are very smart I agree with what you said This is your brain on X

Yeah no problem..thank you. I don't judge those who do drugs or have anything against them, but I do hope to help those people who feel they need them, to show them that there are ways to experience these states by opening themselves up and also exploring their inner world. Essentially, people coming together for a common purpose in a group setting, as well as individual reflection, is a great way to have what could be called a "peak" experience. This is what people seem to be trying to achieve with drugs...people want to feel like they are connected with reality by being disconnected from it, a type of paradox that does make sense if you think about it. Drugs are an escape. To escape reality, is often times to face reality. That's what happens a lot in various religious practices like meditation and prayer or contemplation...the experiencing of divine or a spiritual reality in order for one to come to a realization about themselves in physical, human reality.

Think about it...it's not really "new age" stuff, it's a common thing in many religions all over the world. Sometimes I may talk like i'm into new age stuff, but I really can't stand that kind of stuff. I like the ideas from a guy named Ken Wilber, and he's been lumped in many times with "new age" gurus out there, but this guy is a brilliant philosopher and theorist. I also am really into the thinking of Kant, Descartes, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Carl Jung and Abe Maslow. I'm still exploring some of them though....

I think this thread could be cool and have some good ideas if people would just contribute.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RJT I didn't preach for a moment about how you shouldn't need drugs. By all means, need drugs as much as you'd like. And I'd hardly place this thread in the same category as any university study remotely having to do with psychoactive chemicals and their relationship to music.

thats nice. can you answer my original question?

because its subjective what drugs to use with what genres. it's pretty retarted to try and pair a certain drug to a certain genre.

quote:

Originally posted by stev�sto thats nice. can you answer my original question?

To try to explain away personal, subjective, sensory experiences in such broad terms based on a small microcosm of the music industry seems a bit ridiculous to me. Add to that, the superficial manner in which this is being discussed is all really rather boring, and has been done to death on these forums before.

Someone like good old Pinokio comes along every few weeks having just spent a "lot of time thinking" about drugs and music recently - Then, using such wonderfully academic terms such as "zerotonine" they'll describe whatever "revelation" or "hypothesis" they stumbled upon, eventually trailing off and ending with something brilliantly insightful along the lines of...

quote:

Originally posted by Pinokio I'm just assuming these because often people that take this drugs like this genres.

Does that answer your question?

Edit: Danny said it first and simplest. Listen to him.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 And X just messes with chemicals in the brain that really shouldn't be messed with to the levels that X does....this isn't propaganda as some would say..it's pretty much established in the medical community.

you're referring to the ricaurte study in the U.S. which was funded by nida, the anti drug department of our govt. there was a german study done a few years ago that has debunked those findings and is the reason why to this day no researcher considers the ricaurte study valid at all.

in fact recently ricaurte officially retracted his paper after "discovering" they gave methamphetamine to monkeys instead of mdma. speed, meth, has long been known as the only drug besides alcohol proven to cause brain damage. this is the source of so much controversy around the drug. its pretty easy to see that this meth instead of mdma was not a mistake, to say it was an accident is a hard pill to swallow, no pun intended.

Yes x is awsome with trance, no surprise there.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RJT To try to explain away personal, subjective, sensory experiences in such broad terms based on a small microcosm of the music industry seems a bit ridiculous to me. Add to that, the superficial manner in which this is being discussed is all really rather boring, and has been done to death on these forums before. Someone like good old Pinokio comes along every few weeks having just spent a "lot of time thinking" about drugs and music recently - Then, using such wonderfully academic terms such as "zerotonine" they'll describe whatever "revelation" or "hypothesis" they stumbled upon, eventually trailing off and ending with something brilliantly insightful along the lines of... Does that answer your question? Edit: Danny said it first and simplest. Listen to him.

I did search for a thread like this, and didn't found it, before I type the name.

Next Time just don't try to be cool, and give an answer.

about this

"I'm just assuming these because often people that take this drugs like this genres."

I think is you see a common behavior relatred to something, you could think it's because of something, and not just think it's coincidence.

about the LSD I did read something that it was prove by scientists, that the sounds of PSY/GOA are the most intense for hallucinations.

and if you read the first post, I don't say a drug is bonded to one genre only, but it does have a genre that is more common for regular users.

Think RJT, It's not coincidence,
Find a Reason.
and stop trying to be cool.

quote:

Originally posted by stev�sto you're referring to the ricaurte study in the U.S. which was funded by nida, the anti drug department of our govt. there was a german study done a few years ago that has debunked those findings and is the reason why to this day no researcher considers the ricaurte study valid at all. in fact recently ricaurte officially retracted his paper after "discovering" they gave methamphetamine to monkeys instead of mdma. speed, meth, has long been known as the only drug besides alcohol proven to cause brain damage. this is the source of so much controversy around the drug. its pretty easy to see that this meth instead of mdma was not a mistake, to say it was an accident is a hard pill to swallow, no pun intended.

Pure ecstacy might not be as harmful then as the stuff that someone could get over the blackmarket by some drug dealer or someone at a rave or club...that would be laced with other drugs. But you can't refuse EEG scans on the brain showing that with ecstacy useage, there is damage done. It depends on the drug given as well as the individual. The scary thing with drugs, is that each person has a different experience with them. Some people can handle them and not have all of the side effects or harmful effects on the body, others will. So if you do have an averse effect, it might be too late once you've taken them. I mean who knows what your getting...

It's just like with prescription medication....some people react differently to different drugs. But the difference being...that most prescription medication is beneficial (mostly) to the user. And as illicit drugs like X or LCD or PCP might have some beneficial uses to the user..as these types of experiences I was describing in some of my other posts on here, they still don't offer anything that would be healing or theraputic. Now if we could find some safe, herbal or natural drugs that don't cause as much harm, that would be another story, but designer drugs or synthetics...no matter what study is...would say that they are harmful. I'm sure the german study didn't say they were safe, they probably were just saying that the effects of the drug weren't as severe as the american study noted. And that could be possible, that they aren't, but they aren't "safe" either, there really is no such thing as a "safe" drug except water and music .

quote:

Originally posted by Pinokio I did search for a thread like this, and didn't found it, before I type the name. Next Time just don't try to be cool, and give an answer. about this "I'm just assuming these because often people that take this drugs like this genres." I think is you see a common behavior relatred to something, you could think it's because of something, and not just think it's coincidence. about the LSD I did read something that it was prove by scientists, that the sounds of PSY/GOA are the most intense for hallucinations. and if you read the first post, I don't say a drug is bonded to one genre only, but it does have a genre that is more common for regular users. Think RJT, It's not coincidence, Find a Reason. and stop trying to be cool.

Ok, you got me

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 Yeah no problem..thank you. I don't judge those who do drugs or have anything against them, but I do hope to help those people who feel they need them, to show them that there are ways to experience these states by opening themselves up and also exploring their inner world. Essentially, people coming together for a common purpose in a group setting, as well as individual reflection, is a great way to have what could be called a "peak" experience. This is what people seem to be trying to achieve with drugs...people want to feel like they are connected with reality by being disconnected from it, a type of paradox that does make sense if you think about it. Drugs are an escape. To escape reality, is often times to face reality. That's what happens a lot in various religious practices like meditation and prayer or contemplation...the experiencing of divine or a spiritual reality in order for one to come to a realization about themselves in physical, human reality. Think about it...it's not really "new age" stuff, it's a common thing in many religions all over the world. Sometimes I may talk like i'm into new age stuff, but I really can't stand that kind of stuff. I like the ideas from a guy named Ken Wilber, and he's been lumped in many times with "new age" gurus out there, but this guy is a brilliant philosopher and theorist. I also am really into the thinking of Kant, Descartes, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Carl Jung and Abe Maslow. I'm still exploring some of them though.... I think this thread could be cool and have some good ideas if people would just contribute.

There are people currently studying that, and I did read something similar with the spiritual xperiences and the consumption of different drugs to experience these states.
This was writtern by an psychologist, I think he is from Colombia, ti was very interesting.

There are tribes in Mexico that take Peyote as a religious experience, it's even legal only for this people in mexico to take these drugs, and realize these rituals.

some people get spiritual experiences thorugh meditation only.

and others get them with Music and drugs.

quote:

Originally posted by Danny Ocean because its subjective what drugs to use with what genres. it's pretty retarted to try and pair a certain drug to a certain genre.

i respect your opinion. i think its interesting to see other's experiences of combining certain drugs with certain genres of music. the whole topic is fascinating to not just me, but others as well because it's always a topic of discussion i see come up at parties etc.

i already shared my experience of mdma and gangsta rap not going well together, here's another one: mushrooms and house/trance music. made it sound repetitive and annoying.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 Pure ecstacy might not be as harmful then as the stuff that someone could get over the blackmarket by some drug dealer or someone at a rave or club...that would be laced with other drugs. But you can't refuse EEG scans on the brain showing that with ecstacy useage, there is damage done. It depends on the drug given as well as the individual. The scary thing with drugs, is that each person has a different experience with them. Some people can handle them and not have all of the side effects or harmful effects on the body, others will. So if you do have an averse effect, it might be too late once you've taken them. I mean who knows what your getting... It's just like with prescription medication....some people react differently to different drugs. But the difference being...that most prescription medication is beneficial (mostly) to the user. And as illicit drugs like X or LCD or PCP might have some beneficial uses to the user..as these types of experiences I was describing in some of my other posts on here, they still don't offer anything that would be healing or theraputic. Now if we could find some safe, herbal or natural drugs that don't cause as much harm, that would be another story, but designer drugs or synthetics...no matter what study is...would say that they are harmful. I'm sure the german study didn't say they were safe, they probably were just saying that the effects of the drug weren't as severe as the american study noted. And that could be possible, that they aren't, but they aren't "safe" either, there really is no such thing as a "safe" drug except water and music .

Well getting it legal would eliminate the blackmarket, and atleast people would get the real substance.

about the studies, I don't trust them that much,
I did saw the slideshow I posted before and it shows what happens to yourt brain on X, I can beliueve that.

but I've heard studies that said it's 25 % possibilities of being dead when taking X.

Obviously they are lying, we would have hundreds of people dead at raves daily, and that's not happening.

quote:

Originally posted by Pinokio Well getting it legal would eliminate the blackmarket, and atleast people would get the real substance. about the studies, I don't trust them that much, I did saw the slideshow I posted before and it shows what happens to yourt brain on X, I can beliueve that. but I've heard studies that said it's 25 % possibilities of being dead when taking X. Obviously they are lying, we would have hundreds of people dead at raves daily, and that's not happening.

Exactly because they aren't taking it to the extreme that you would need to really get into a near state of catanoia. And possibly they weren't taking other drugs with it..or it wasn't laced with anything else. It would be possible to eliminate it from the blackmarket but it would need to be regulated, similar to that done with marijuana in the Netherlands. But I still wouldn't think that it would be wise for people to take it. And plenty of room for abuse, just like other drugs, legal ones, but more so with ecstacy. We might not be seeing people dead, but we will see dependency, just like with other drugs as I said.

Just doesn't make sense...people shouldn't need drugs to make them happy. It would be almost like an anti-depressant, and although I'm not completely against them, people shouldn't just resort to them thinking they will magically get better without doing anything else like a lifestyle change, environmental change or some psychotherapy/counseling. I think with me, that's what it boils down to. There are just many other ways to happiness and to spiritual experiences, and drugs may have been aids in this over the years, but with the advancement of research in the mind and emotions, we can someday learn new ways of experiencing things and combating depression without the need for drugs. Haha it sounds like scientology, but it's not (another thing I can't stand along with the new age movement). I guess you could say, we have a lot more to learn about the mind and our emotions and I hope that someday drugs wont be needed.

quote:

Originally posted by Pinokio some people get spiritual experiences thorugh meditation only.

that's me

This thread delivers.

Fuck the music.

It's all about the state of mind.

Just ask them crazy brits and the rise of garbage oops garage i mean.

Drugs are bad. They make people do weird things like shitting in their pants.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 And as illicit drugs like X or LCD or PCP might have some beneficial uses to the user..as these types of experiences I was describing in some of my other posts on here, they still don't offer anything that would be healing or theraputic.

First i'd like to say i've found reading your posts quite interesting despite not agreeing with everything you have to say

The section i've quoted is one i disagree with, by talking to ecstasy users i think you will find many many people that have experienced genuine and long lasting therputic benefits from ecstasy. The empathy and feeling of togetherness it creates often carries on long after usage. It can certainly help people with confidence issues allowing them to be open where normally they would be shy and reserved. The use in medicine (psychology) is also quite well documented, for example it can be used as an aid for post traumatic stress to allow people such as rape victims to express their feelings.

The issue of neurotoxicity i think is quite a simple one, put all studies aside (including the brain scan images which seem very bias or suspectable at the very least*) and i think it's safe to say that ecstasy does kill brain cells. The feeling during and after usage is pretty conclusive evidence as far as i'm concerned.

And lastly you seem to imply that people take drugs to enjoy the music, for me it is much the opposite; i take drugs BECAUSE i enjoy the music.



Pete

* One study i saw showed the brain of a non user with the eyes clearly visable in the scan alongside a scan of an ecstasy user with large parts of the brain 'missing' and also *shock horror* the eyes. You heard it here first folk ecstasy makes your eyes fall out!

Thanks for reading my posts and it's okay to disagree, you don't have to agree with me haha. It may have "percieved" theraputic effects, as I have read that it was used in the 1920s for married couples...in counseling, but I am not a believer that drugs are the cure all for mental illness or problems people may have in life. I'm going to write a position paper in my logic class on this. I could go into details but I don't feel like it right now. But I will say that as a psychologist, I will not be someone who will push them into seeing a psychaitrist to become medication. Then again, I wont really be dealing with the kinds of people that would need them. Labels wont be important to me, as my only goal is to find the root causes of the problem, not just a percieved problem based around stringent criteria. And from this help them through various means. Mental illness is much more than just looking at the DSM-IV and diagnosing someone with an illness.

I don't know how genuine the feelings are from taking drugs, it seems almost like your forcing your mind and yourself to have these feelings of empathy by taking these drugs rather than making adjustments in your own life to change things so that you will get better. Say you have social anxiety and are afraid to talk to people, the best way is to realize you have this problem and role play...and think of ways in which you can start talking to people. Once you know you have the problem, your chances for combating it our much greater than not acknowledging it or believing you do. So someone does need to come to that point that they do...just like a drug addict or alcoholic.

I don't think drugs, whether they are illegal ones like Ecstacy or legal ones like Zoloft, are the cure all for people's depression or mental illness. And I think the music is the drug in and of itself, and like I said in another post, if you can allow the music to carry your imagination into inner realities, then you are having much more of a genuine experience then that created through drugs. Sometimes drugs may be needed in some severe forms of mental illness, like scizophrenia, severe drepssion and bi-polar, but like I said, not the cure all for someone's ills. You shouldn't need drugs to allow you to experience empathy, you should be able to experience it genuinely. But then the question remains, what is genuine experience? That's something to think about. Again, i'm not saying "drugs are bad, don't do them" but I'm just saying what I believe. Someday that might change, but right now this is where I stand.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 I don't think drugs, whether they are illegal ones like Ecstacy or legal ones like Zoloft, are the cure all for people's depression or mental illness. And I think the music is the drug in and of itself, and like I said in another post, if you can allow the music to carry your imagination into inner realities, then you are having much more of a genuine experience then that created through drugs. Sometimes drugs may be needed in some severe forms of mental illness, like scizophrenia, severe drepssion and bi-polar, but like I said, not the cure all for someone's ills. You shouldn't need drugs to allow you to experience empathy, you should be able to experience it genuinely. But then the question remains, what is genuine experience? That's something to think about. Again, i'm not saying "drugs are bad, don't do them" but I'm just saying what I believe. Someday that might change, but right now this is where I stand.

Couple of things

Firstly take 2 different people; both have just had one of the best and most enjoyable nights of their lives, person a took all manner of drugs while person b spent the night sober. Was person b's night more genuine? Will person a look back on his night in a false light because of drug use? From experience i would say both nights are as real, valid and genuine as each others. I look back on some of the best nights of my life with the same fondness irrelevant of whether i was sober, drunk or under the influence of drugs and when it comes down to it i think that's all that really matters.

It's worth noting that i think from a non-drug user's (particularly people with anti-drug beliefs) point of view it's easy to dismiss your friends account of his enjoyable night because he took drugs. I've heard comments such as "i could have just as much fun if i took that crap" and the simple fact is probably yes you could BUT it still doesn't mean the person in question had any less fun.



And secondly by saying things such as "You shouldn't need drugs to allow you to experience empathy, you should be able to experience it genuinely." you are strongly suggesting that drug users cannot do this when i'm sure you are aware this isnt the case. Some people do take it as a shallow and easy way of experiencing these feelings and then i think you're views are valid but to a far greater majority it is just a very pleasant side effect.



Also thridly (i know i said 2 things!) i would be very interested to see how your views on drugs were to change (if at all) after experincing them first hand..

quote:

Originally posted by Grrrrr And secondly by saying things such as "You shouldn't need drugs to allow you to experience empathy, you should be able to experience it genuinely." you are strongly suggesting that drug users cannot do this when i'm sure you are aware this isnt the case. Some people do take it as a shallow and easy way of experiencing these feelings and then i think you're views are valid but to a far greater majority it is just a very pleasant side effect. Also thridly (i know i said 2 things!) i would be very interested to see how your views on drugs were to change (if at all) after experincing them first hand..

I didn't mean to say that drugs users can't experience these things without it, but if someone is taking these things so they can experience empathy, then that would be considered not a real experience. I mean empathy doesn't come from drugs, and if that is the only way someone can experience it, then there must be something else going on with that person that needs to be addressed...ie. personality or identity conflicts, adjustment issues or issues with their environment, or an experience that greatley troubled them that caused them to be this way...ie. PTSD.

There's got to be another way, a better way, then using medication or illegal drugs like ecstacy. I mean I'm not completely anti-drug, but i'm not for drugs either. I wouldn't tell someone to do drugs, nor would I actively tell not to. My biggest issues is dependency, which I raised in another post. People become dependent on things like drugs in order to get "high" or feel things that they might not feel in real life, but there's got to be (and I believe there is) other ways..natural and safer ways of experiencing things and getting "high".

There's many ways of having "peak experiences" or feelings of transcendence and guys like Abraham Maslow (a famous psychologist) and Ken Wilber (a famous philosopher) layed out many ways in which people can and do experience these things without the use of drugs. And this is precisely my point...that there is and should be other ways. And the same with music...of experiencing music...and music is a way one can experience these transcedent forms of consciousness (chanting and drum beating are some of the oldest forms of music and still very much prevalent today, esp in EDM). Ask any Buddhist out there....and they will tell you. Though i'm not Buddhist myself (i'm Christian-Catholic by my upbringing, but my beliefs are much more than those of my upbriging, you can say i'm a lot more than a Catholic, I don't really like to label myself or my beliefs).

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