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-- Miller wants to tear down Gardiner
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| Originally posted by bluE_Neon It's all politics. Burying it would cost the government 2 billion dollars. If Gardiner would be a tunnel, Toronto would defintely make a bit step up the ladder of a raising megacity. Ffs, they want to build Toronto's skyline but yet they can't understand the fundamentals of construction anarchy. Building another boulevard would be a disaster. Doesn't matter if you have 6 or 10 lines if lights are controlling traffic  Gardiner these days is just as busy as 401, in it's peak hours. I'd say if tunnel was under construction, extend it with another 2 extra lines. City's growing and the future has to be measured. At least Americans have that figured out with Beltways.P.S. Construction disasters never happen, it's miserable management. |
I think that'd be an amazing proposal. They'd have to be extremely high because of the skyline considered as an obsticale, unless it's build outside of Toronto, on water near the T.O. islands and a seperate highway is connected into the city core. That would mean building a tunnel. Anyhow, a tunnel is needed either way because politians wouldn't want a viaduct right in the city, not that theres anything wrong with that either. Politians are ignorant in that field, go figure.
Jayx1 I feel your sorrow, we have the same problem here in MTL but multiplied twice!
The city wants to dismantle a highway and turn it into a boulevard because its not letting the citizen access the waterfront, the problem is that no one lives there(!!!).
The province wants to turn another very congested boulevard into a highway but the city refuses the project. The city argues again that it cuts access to the water, well the waterfront is the very busy port of montreal, all concrete and industrial, nothing to see anyways, and this has been hanging on for 30 years.
Sometimes i feel city-level politicians are still hippies with peace and flowers tatooed on their heart and refuse to see whats clear. Congested roads create more pollution than a freeflowing highway.
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| Originally posted by Time2Burn ruling with an iron fist |
get ready for some more annoying news... and once again the Viaduct option is not mentioned..
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$758M to tear down Gardiner
From burying it to doing nothing, plans exist. But where's the money?
Sep. 27, 2006. 08:00 PM
VANESSA LU
CITY HALL BUREAU CHIEF
A proposal to tear down the Gardiner Expressway east of Spadina Ave. would cost at least $758 million and almost a decade to complete, but waterfront officials think it crucial to revitalization efforts.
�The Gardiner may be useful, but it�s an eyesore,� said John Campbell, president and CEO of the Toronto Waterfront Revitalization Corp. �It�s ugly.�
The final decision, however, rests with city council � likely sometime in 2007. But a seven-volume, 564-page report released today outlines various options including doing nothing; spending $1.5 billion to tear it down and replace it with underground and surface roads; or redoing some ramps.
The option recommended by the waterfront corporation was the $758 million plan to remove the elevated portion of the expressway from Spadina to the Don River. Included in the cost estimate is $11 million for an environment assessment, which could take three years to complete.
It�s a hot potato issue that politicians are reluctant to tackle, especially in an election year. In fact, the report, which cost $1 million simply to write, was delivered to city officials two years ago.
But it has never been publicly released or discussed. Even councillors had not seen a copy of it until today, despite a great hue and cry to get it released.
Although he made waterfront redevelopment a key election plank in 2003, Toronto Mayor David Miller said there are more important things to worry about than the highway on the city�s front porch.
�If we could remove the part of the Gardiner that is in the vicinity of where the waterfront�s going to be revitalized, it would be terrific. But you can�t do it unless there�s a business plan and unless there�s money, and there�s no money right now.
�It would be a very good thing to do in terms of city building and the waterfront,� Miller told reporters. �It appears from the waterfront report you could address transportation needs, but without money � it�s just a theoretical concern.�
A $758 million expenditure would be almost exactly what the city of Toronto spends every year on the city�s police force. It�s also about 10 per cent of the annual city budget.
Miller has actively fought for more funding from senior levels of government on some issues, but not this one.
�This is a lower priority, for example, than fighting for public transit funding,� he explained. �We have basic things that have to get done in this city that we don�t have funding for.�
Councillor Jane Pitfield, a candidate for mayor, also argued that there are �more important priorities�� right now than talking about taking down the Gardiner.
She is in favour of having the issue become a referendum question on the 2010 municipal election ballot. Calling the Gardiner �a major east-west transportation artery� she said she doesn�t accept the �excuse� that the Gardiner is �ugly.�
The report recommends taking down the Gardiner from east of Spadina, explaining that many of the cars coming in from the west have already exited by the time they get that far. Traffic from Simcoe St. to Jarvis St. would be rerouted to 10 lanes of traffic at street level; five lanes going east and, a solid city block away, five lanes going west. An eight-lane roadway modelled after University Ave. would be built from Jarvis St. to the Don River.
Waterfront officials estimate that the changes would add four minutes to the current 14-minute, morning rush hour trip for in-bound traffic from the Humber River to King and Bay, and an additional two minutes for outbound traffic. In the evening, it would take an additional five minutes for traffic into the downtown, but outbound traffic would remain the same, at an estimated 18 minutes.
That�s because the waterfront corporation is counting on the Front St. extension � which would handle a big chunk of existing expressway traffic � being built. However, plans for the two-kilometre road from Bathurst to Dufferin have been on hold for years because of escalating costs.
Originally one of the waterfront corporation�s key priority projects � the price tag for the Front St. extension has skyrocketed from $170 million to $255 million. However, councillors have also been concerned about rising costs so its future is on hold until city council makes a final decision on the Gardiner.
The Front St. extension would take four years to complete, and the teardown of the Gardiner � in three major chunks � at least five years.
Any proposal to tear down or alter the Gardiner is sure to generate public and political opposition. Nearly three-quarters of all Gardiner users do not live in Toronto, but work in the city. As well, recent traffic studies show just as many people are leaving the downtown core in the morning as are coming in to the downtown.
Campbell argues the time is now to act, noting that as more development takes place near the Gardiner, it will become harder to take it down.
�This is the opportune time,� he said. �For me, it�s a question of what kind of city do you want.�
Campbell argued that the city should invest in public transit instead of meeting car demand. �What�s the cost of being a city like L.A. or Las Vegas, or another city with a better quality of place.�
The report also warns that �time is of the essence,� noting that costs will only continue to escalate once the corridor is built up further, and �the missed opportunities greater, and the benefit less.�
However, the biggest stumbling block to any changes to the elevated expressway is how to pay for any improvements. Construction on the Gardiner began in 1956 and it was fully opened in 1965 at a cost of $103 million in 1960 dollars. If city council choses to do nothing, it still costs about $12 million a year for maintenance and repairs.
The report does not closely examine how to pay for the proposed solutions.
It suggests a variety of ways are possible, including imposing an extra gasoline tax in the Golden Horseshoe area, or imposing a parking surcharge in downtown Toronto.
Setting up road tolls on the Queen Elizabeth Way, Highway 427 and Don Valley Parkway could raise up to $130 million a year, it says.
The report also estimates that property values along the lakeshore will increase if the road system is improved, which will generate and extra $12.4 million a year in property taxes.
Waterfront officials also acknowledge that the $758 million price tag is an underestimate since the report was first written with inflation and rising construction costs.
It�s unlikely that the other levels of governments would be eager to jump in with cash even though both are committed to waterfront revitalization.
�It�s premature for the province or the federal government to venture an opinion until the city decides what they want to do with a city roadway,� said Ontario Public Infrastructure and Renewal Minister David Caplan.
�We�ll have to cross that bridge when we get to it.�
Councillor Gloria Lindsay Luby, who chairs the city�s economic development and parks committee, argues that the Gardiner should stay up, possibly with some changes to the ramps.
�I think the Gardiner is indispensable,� she said. �I think creating this grand avenue is not going to help the city. I see it contributing to further congestion and gridlock.�
Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong, who fought for the release of the report, argued city council needs to take bold action and find ways of saying yes.
�We shouldn�t use the price tag as an excuse to throw it (the report) back into the filing cabinet.�
with files from Jim Byers, John Spears, Donovan Vincent, Paul Moloney and Kerry Gillespie
source:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...ol=968793972154
here's the official report Gardiner/Lake Shore report:
http://www.towaterfront.ca/dbdocs/451ad1fc5015e.pdf
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Hi Emilio, I really appreciate your interest on the Toronto Waterfront Viaduct proposal, and for taking the time to contact us. As for your concern about the media attention on the TWV, I have been working to contact them and I've managed to get some attention, like a short story on the National Post, and a very good article on Eye Weekly magazine. I have also contacted some Toronto councillors and candidates for this election, and I have got a very positive reaction from the ones who have responded, especially mayoral candidate Jane Pitfield, who liked the proposal, much more than dismantling or tunneling the Gardiner. I am still working to get more media and political attention, as I am assured that the TWV is a far better proposal to the issue with the Gardiner and the rail corridor. In the mean time, I invite you to get involved in this effort by promoting the TWV, and by giving any future suggestions or concerns you might have. The lines are open. Best regards, Jose R. Gutierrez T.O. Viaduct [email protected] www.toviaduct.com |
Tearing down an important downtown artery road because it's "ugly" would be a very short-sighted thing to do. Before they tear down ANY peice of the Gardiner, they would need to vastly improve public transportation. Make THAT a priority first, then focus on the ugly roadways that are required at the moment to handle the large volume of cars coming into and out of the city.
its time to make this a wedge issue for the election.
Miller is playing it off so that he can get into power again and then tear it down. Dont trust that sneaky weasel.
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| Originally posted by Spam Tearing down an important downtown artery road because it's "ugly" would be a very short-sighted thing to do. Before they tear down ANY peice of the Gardiner, they would need to vastly improve public transportation. Make THAT a priority first, then focus on the ugly roadways that are required at the moment to handle the large volume of cars coming into and out of the city. |
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| Originally posted by Fir3start3r Not if they're going to go about it like the TTC did when they got their shot in the arm from the government. According to a friend of mine, they didn't even tender the contract out for the new TTC subway cars. They just gave it all to Bombardier. I mean, what kind of cronyism is in this place?? |
lol, the viaduct would be an even bigger eye-sore than the current gardiner..
i'm all for dismantling it and replacing it with a boulevard if they can't finance burying it..
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| Originally posted by mute79 lol, the viaduct would be an even bigger eye-sore than the current gardiner.. i'm all for dismantling it and replacing it with a boulevard if they can't finance burying it.. |
None of the scenarios involving the Gardiner are all that great. Yes, the Gardiner is an ugly stretch of highway. However, this really only matters to the Lakeshore Revitalization people who are completely out to lunch anyways. We've already mentioned the problem of condos already acting as a barrier to viewing the lake. Then let's toss in the problems with people on the island trying to live in a noise vacuum. Anythinn that's built that would attract people to the lakeshore will be protested by island residents because of the potential noise. I think it's about time to kill the revitalization pipe dream.
Burying it sounds like a good idea, but isn't economically feasible. It would take at least 5 years (many experts are quoting closer to 10) to build, traffic would be chaotic, and the project would be stalled midway through while municipal politicians renegotiate with new federal and provincial governments to continue the funding. Sounds like the 'Big Dig' all over again.
The Viaduct Plan has the same problem as the existing Gardiner, it would be an eyesore. Let's face it, concrete isn't pretty.
Repairs and upgrades on the existing structure are already costly and as the roadway ages, these costs will only continue to climb.
The Gardiner was an ill-conceived highway, in an age where highways were seen as the cure-all to traffic congestion. Now Torontonians are stuck with zero good options and a lot of politicking.
the viaduct appears to be more like abuilding with a highway on top. It would also become a landmark.
Various structures like the brooklyn bridge and golden gate show us that highways can be done properly and turned into a landmark/tourist attraction.
How did i know that toronto would turn the montreal collapse into an opportunistic call to tear down the gardiner?
These idiots just wont rest until toronto traffic is in even more chaos it seems
Credit to milelr for not jumping on that bandwagon, yet. But shame on the media for trying to stir unnecissary BS.
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| As safety inspections continue in Quebec following the weekend collapse of a Laval viaduct that claimed five lives, questions are being raised over whether Torontonians face a similar risk when they take to the roads. Toronto spends between $10 million and $12 million each year maintaining its streets and overpasses, including the Gardiner Expressway. However, chunks of concrete have fallen from the busy highway in the past and engineers caution that it could happen again. The future of the Gardiner was discussed in city council last week when a report was released detailing the cost of several options including maintaining it, tearing down part of it, or replacing it with a tunnel. Maintenance is tabbed at about half a billion dollars, while the most expensive option, building a tunnel, would reportedly cost about $2 billion. The Gardiner is 60 years old and carries 16,000 vehicles a day. Some experts say it's not unusual to have pieces of concrete fall off it, as was the case in February of 1999 when a large chunk fell from the highway's underside. "It can be any size of concrete falling off. I mean it could be a little piece, (or) it can be a big rock," said engineer Jose Gutierrez. Drivers around the GTA didn't seem too concerned about the possibility of the Laval scenario replaying itself in Toronto. "In general I think it's unlikely to happen," said one motorist, Sergio. "I wouldn't worry about that." Mayor David Miller says road collapses like the one that occurred at Bathurst St. and Sheppard Ave. in April are uncommon. "Our bridges are inspected annually and for the first time in a very long time this year we started addressing the backlog in road repairs and I'm proud of that investment," Miller said. City officials say Toronto's 530 bridges are inspected in detail by structural engineers annually and checked daily to make sure they're safe. |
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| Originally posted by Jayx1 How did i know that toronto would turn the montreal collapse into an opportunistic call to tear down the gardiner? These idiots just wont rest until toronto traffic is in even more chaos it seems Credit to milelr for not jumping on that bandwagon, yet. But shame on the media for trying to stir unnecissary BS. |
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| Originally posted by dEsidEL btw. i emailed the Viaduct plan co-ordinator and receieved a response which I posted a few posts earlier .. interesting to know that Pitfield supports the idea, tho i'm still surprised that there was no mention in the recent Star article about it.. |
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| Originally posted by Jayx1 How did i know that toronto would turn the montreal collapse into an opportunistic call to tear down the gardiner? These idiots just wont rest until toronto traffic is in even more chaos it seems Credit to milelr for not jumping on that bandwagon, yet. But shame on the media for trying to stir unnecissary BS. |
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| Originally posted by malek yep bandwagon jumpers, they could've used any of the overpasses that collapsed in the USA in the last few years as examples instead if it was a valid argument. |
Ha, the Gardiner made Wired.com's list of
'10 Highways That Should Be Razed Now'
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| * Alaskan Way Viaduct, Seattle, WA � (pictured) Built in 1953, this north-south route along Seattle's Elliot Bay stands between the city and an open Seattle waterfront. * Sheridan Expressway, Bronx, NY � Known as I-895 and built in 1963, it was designed to connect the Bruckner Expressway with the New England Thruway in the Bronx, but local opposition limited it to a one-mile road that mars the Bronx River waterfront. * Skyway and Route 5, Buffalo, NY � Built in 1953, this 1.4-mile long, 110-foot tall bridge begins at the Inner Harbor downtown, crosses the Buffalo River and touches down as Route 5 in the Outer Harbor. It blocks access to the waterfront, and there is no pedestrian access between downtown and the Outer Harbor. * Route 34 - New Haven, CT � This highway begins at the junction of Interstates 95 and 91 and extends on columns into downtown New Haven for 1.1 miles, but plans to extend the road another 10 miles were never realized. Six hundred families were displaced to make room for this project, which was built in 1959. * Claiborne Expressway, New Orleans, LA � In the 1950s, this highway rolled over one of New Orleans' thriving African-American communities. With construction of the more direct I-610 in the 1970s, calls for the removal of the Claiborne have been increasing. * Interstate 81, Syracuse NY � When Interstate 81 was finished in the late 1950s it destroyed an African-American community, and today is an eyesore that does little to promote growth in downtown Syracuse. * Interstate 64, Louisville, KY � This six-lane highway separates downtown Louisville from its waterfront. In 2003, the Federal Highway Administration proposed a $4.1 billion expansion of I-64, which has been loudly opposed by area activists. * Route 29, Trenton, NJ � This four-lane road runs along the Delaware River and has a higher-than-average rate of collisions. Its removal would pave the way for a mixed-use waterfront development. * Gardiner Expressway, Toronto, ON � Finished in 1966, this eight-lane highway separates downtown Toronto from its waterfront and costs $10 million a year to maintain. * 11th Street Bridges and the Southeast Freeway, Washington, D.C. � The Southeast Freeway is a 1.39-mile stretch of freeway running through Washington, D.C., built in the late 1960s. It connects Interstate 395 to Interstate 295 at the 11th Street Bridges and was prevented from continuing west due to local opposition at the time. |
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| Originally posted by Orko Ha, the Gardiner made Wired.com's list of '10 Highways That Should Be Razed Now' |
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| Transportation plays a pivotal role in sustainability and truly efficient transportation � walking, bicycling, and transit use � is only possible where there is compact, urban form. |
they should rebuild it, and charge a fare for use. so it encourages commuting as well.
before people start going nuts and saying why should we have to pay for it, well its because the city has to pay for the gardiner, not the federal government. this way, after its been rebuilt, the tolls can go to doing the onward repairs/maintenance for it, and theyre should be cash to be spent on something else instead of 40 years later, lets spend another billion dollars to rebuild it.
maybe we should just ban traffic so i we don't have to worry about rebuilding the gardiner.
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| Originally posted by lol internet they should rebuild it, and charge a fare for use. so it encourages commuting as well. before people start going nuts and saying why should we have to pay for it, well its because the city has to pay for the gardiner, not the federal government. this way, after its been rebuilt, the tolls can go to doing the onward repairs/maintenance for it, and theyre should be cash to be spent on something else instead of 40 years later, lets spend another billion dollars to rebuild it. |
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