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-- What's harder to Mix? Hip-Hop/RnB or EDM
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Its all good Ricky H...

To be honest, I'm pretty tired of talking about hip hop so much(especially on a trance forum). The only reason I even posted on this thread was because I was just kinda shocked to see that people actually thought hip hop was harder to mix than EDM. After succesfully/commercially spinning both types of music for many years, and knowing many succesful and well known hip hop DJs(and edm DJs) who agreed 100% of the time, when brought up in conversation, that hip hop is easier to mix... I guess I just assumed it was common knowledge.

quote:

Originally posted by Stealth The vocals aren't supposed to clash thats why hip hop DJs use instrimentals. If you mix hip hop the proper way you will see how easy this stuff really is to mix, especially compared to EDM! Sorry but in all my years as a hip hop DJ I have never seen or heard anyone mix two rnb songs togather for 1 or 2 minutes. I've heard DJs mix an rnb instrimental with a rnb acappella of a different track... but I've also heard many more EDM DJs mix acappellas, so mixing acappellas shouldn't really have anything to do with debate of 'which is harder to mix'. Trance "loops" are always evolving and changing unlike hip hop. Even when hip hop loops do change the songs always follow the same predictable cookie-cutter format. I think it would pretty obvious that trance and other genres of EDM are much more complex than hip hop (therefore making it more difficult to mix than hip hop). Like I said before, vocals should not be an issue when mixing hip hop or rnb if you mix them the proper way. Again, the length of intros should not be an issue if you are mixing hip hop or rnb the proper way. You don't need a sampler when mixing hip hop. No offence to anyone, but I'm noticing a pattern here, the DJs that are saying hip hop is harder to mix don't really seem to know how to mix hip hop properly. They are making it a lot harder on themselves than its supposed be. If you mix hip hop the way its supposed to be mixed you will see how much easier it is compared to mixing EDM. once again, this is how simple it is to mix hip hop: play track 1, then begin to mix in track 2(instrimental version) at the beginning of the track 1 chorus(usually the second chorus), then at the end of track 1 chorus cut to track 2(instrimental version). Then mix in track 2(vocal version). thats it.

there is no proper way to spin hip hop... i know quite a few hip hop dj's and very rarely do they play instras and then the original w/ vocals... maybe a few times a night.. most hip hop dj's i know will either scratch into a track on beat (which is pretty hard) or drop in a track and fade out of the other.. the guys i know do beat juggling more than they do itstras into originals.

everyone is different. hip hop allows you to develop your own style. as i said before.. i like to make instra loops at the beginning and end of tracks and mixing in/out of tracks. i like doing that... dont tellme how i should mix buddy ~ i am making a good living off of djing and i can pack any bar in my city!

but why am i wasting my breath... you already know it all!!

They're both easy damnit.

quote:

Originally posted by nchs09 can someone post a dj set of rap? i want to know what it sounds like.

DJ Rap plays DnB not R&B ...Sorry, I'll get my coat.

Ricky, I reckon people here on a trance forum are bound to say it's harder to mix hip hop - something thats alien will always appear harder to do

This has made interesting reading, cheers

This is a totally dumb arsed thread with some really stupid comments in it.

Firstly, Hip Hop and Trance mixing is very different.

For the most part we have EDM enthusiasts who put all their time into mixing trance or prog etc. and have only dabbled in mixing Hip Hop. Of course it�s going to be hard. Keep in mind that a lot of Hip Hop DJs are not turntablists either, and there is a big difference.

The learning curve is just as steep for a Hip Hop DJ to learn to mix trance. The crowd dynamics are different along with the flow and feel of the music.

What also has to be said is that the styles are different for good reasons.

Hip Hop uses drum loops that have been sampled from real drummers and as some of you may not know, there are very few drummers in the world who can keep a rhythm so steady that you would be able to mix them without doing crazy amounts of corrections.
This is true especially for East coast styles.

Most intros in Hip Hop are too short to mix the way we do and don�t provide that opportunity, they may also start with vocals straight away and you would have vocals clashing in the tracks.

A quick scratch with the opening beat is often the way to do it and it works nicely and is not difficult to do.

What you also have to keep in mind is that most Hip Hop DJs don�t really beat match. I know guys who can scratch up a storm but can�t string two dance tracks together.

The reality of the situation is that we are not comparing like for like and that�s about the only conclusion that you can draw from this comparison. A lot of EDM DJs do feel threatened by Hip Hop DJs but should not feel that way.

I have seen Kool DJ Herc play who is the Hip Hop DJ of all DJs as he is practically the reason the whole movement exists and his skills are pretty basic and not to mention hit and miss at best. This still does not detract from the simple fact that he is one of the best DJs I have seen period due to his tune selection and energy. And that is something you are born with and can�t be taught and goes beyond the style of music you play.

What defines us ultimately as DJs is not our mixing/scratching ability but who we are as people and what we give to the performance in terms of Charisma and our understanding of our audience. This is something that goes beyond Genre.

Cheers
Nem

^^^ Damn, its good to have you back man!

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 This is a totally dumb arsed thread with some really stupid comments in it.

If it was sooo dumb, why did you read it then?

If you read it properly, we weren't talking about track selection and all that. We were just discussing the technical side of mixing.

quote:

Originally posted by nchs09 can someone post a dj set of rap? i want to know what it sounds like.

i will but it won't be for a couple days because my equip is at the club and i have a bunch of shit to do today... i will most likely post it late on tues night.

can you give me some instructions on how exactly i can post a set on here?

bisco

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Ricky H If it was sooo dumb, why did you read it then? If you read it properly, we weren't talking about track selection and all that. We were just discussing the technical side of mixing.

It's impossible to tell how stupid a thread is until you read it.

quote:

Originally posted by Stealth WTF??? 1-minute transitions?! I have heard thousands of different hip hop Djs(unfortunately) mixing at different clubs, radio stations, house parties, etc but I have never heard any hip hop DJ doing 1-minute transitions! Hip hop DJs keep transitions short(always during the chorus and never during the verses) because most hip hop/rnb tracks are musical and have melodies... just like you wouldn't mix the main body of one trance track to the main body of another trance track.

Heh, I didn't really explain clearly enough. I do edits on all of my tracks, so it's not like I'm just mixing the standard 12" cuts for a minute straight. And I obviously didn't mean 1-minute EVERY TIME; I was just making a point saying I mix hip-hop harmonically just like EDM DJs mix harmonically (most of them). My hip-hop transitions are usually 64 bars though.

I just read most of the posts. I am going to throw myself from my upstairs window.


mike

can i watch

I'll have the girl i just dumped take pictures of the impact. I'm sure she'll be more than happy to do that!


Mike

hip hop

hands down.

why? just try mixing it yourself, and come back to say i was right.

lol

I'm gonna throw a grenade into the works, and ask a question:

Beatcounters...

they instantly help an RnB Dj beatmatch trance beats(on any reasonable CDJ)....

But with the broken RnB/Hip-hOp beats, can they still be used accurately, by multiplying/diving by 1/4,2/4,/3/4?

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 This is a totally dumb arsed thread with some really stupid comments in it. Firstly, Hip Hop and Trance mixing is very different. For the most part we have EDM enthusiasts who put all their time into mixing trance or prog etc. and have only dabbled in mixing Hip Hop. Of course it�s going to be hard. Keep in mind that a lot of Hip Hop DJs are not turntablists either, and there is a big difference. The learning curve is just as steep for a Hip Hop DJ to learn to mix trance. The crowd dynamics are different along with the flow and feel of the music. Cheers Nem

WEll.. totally dumb-arsed thread...


I kinda mentioned all that at the very start, as something to keep in mind, as there were alread like 4-5 votes for Hip-Hop, and none for anything else, and I"m sure that's because the people voting didn't think of that....

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Hip Hop uses drum loops that have been sampled from real drummers and as some of you may not know, there are very few drummers in the world who can keep a rhythm so steady that you would be able to mix them without doing crazy amounts of corrections. This is true especially for East coast styles. Cheers Nem

uh..... are u sure of that ...

I've been to forums out there for Hip-Hop Artists, and i'm sure that now-a-days most use digitization...

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Most intros in Hip Hop are too short to mix the way we do and don�t provide that opportunity, they may also start with vocals straight away and you would have vocals clashing in the tracks. Cheers Nem

As much as I respect you, i don't think you've done your reading...

I mean, it's already been mentioned that this is the reason why a lot of the Hip-Hop artists out there use Instrumentals before mixing in the vocals...

speaking of which.... how can you accurately throw on an ACapella on top of an instrumental... do you have to have the tracks... "beatmatched", or playing at the same speed, so to speak? (In RnB/Hip-Hop)

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Ricky H So that means that the "proper" way of mixing trance is wait till the last 32 bars of the trance song and overlap it with the first 32 bars of the incoming song. Isn't that the proper way to mix trance?...yes and no.....yes, meaning that the way trance is structured this would be the proper way to mix, no, meaning that there is no creativity.

Uh, i don't think that's right... trance tracks aren't structured the same, especially when it comes to length of chorus and verses...

It's been months since i've touched a deck, but i'm pretty sure the number of beats in the outro and intro are different in a lot of tracks... but don't quote me on that....

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Ricky H If it was sooo dumb, why did you read it then? If you read it properly, we weren't talking about track selection and all that. We were just discussing the technical side of mixing.

If you bothered to read my post properly you will also have noticed that I did actually explain why the mixing styles are different and also talked about technical aspects. Not to mention some untangible factors that are critical to making you a DJ that are common ground over all genres.
Also making the point that just because someone plays and mixes Hip Hop it doesn't make them a turntablist i.e. they don't have to scratch, beat juggle and crab etc.

Keep in mind that turntablism and playing a set of Hip Hop are two different things, something that was slightly overlooked by some people. Turntablism doesn't even have to be performed using Hip Hop music although for the most part it is the music of choice for them.

The bottom line is that it's no big deal for either genre, they are both easy. To be good at either genre takes time and to make a comparisson is daft because they are not the same skill sets and different natural ability and inclination will decide which you are better at and which you find the easiest.

To become a turntablist on the other hand is like learning to play an instrument.

The main point is that people should not feel that their skills are threatened by other genres.

Does it matter which is harder? If you don't enjoy playing Hip Hop (a term I use lightly as most people have lost sight of what it actually is) why should you care how hard it is?

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 Does it matter which is harder? If you don't enjoy playing Hip Hop (a term I use lightly as most people have lost sight of what it actually is) why should you care how hard it is? Cheers Nem

WEll, RnB DJs I know claiming that trance is easy and requires no skill, and is over respected... And everyone i know (that doesn't DJ) agreeing that RnB must surely be harder...

I'm not bothered by that... I DJ because i enjoy it, and listen to trance because i love it.... but the experience did make me actually pretty curious about RnB as as a genre to mix, and whether it really is harder and deserving of more respect, or is does it just seem like that because of lack of trying?

I was just curious...

quote:

Originally posted by Jarvmeister My view: Hip Hop and RnB is rubbish, the scene is even more rubbish. Thats my view, which I'm pretty sure I'm entitled to.

+.5...


It used to be good, now it's become fucked now that everyone's started listening to it...

I don't mind a bit of hip-hop here and there, but mostly the older stuff I like, around and before Tu-Pac's era. Some of the underground stuff is still great today.

But i hate the music right now, not because of the music, but mostly because of the scene... I hate going into RnB clubs... i can't stand the people, adnd the attitudes. If you go to a proper trance night, with real trance fans, the scene is completely different, and more-so seeming like the old psy-trance "enjoyment" days that ishkur is constantly ranting and whining about.

quote:

Originally posted by Stealth Trance songs are so diverse that you can't follow a '32 bar rule'...

surely you cant be serious! If theres any rule you CAN follow in mixing trance it's a 32 bar rule (notice I said can, doesnt mean you have to)

quote:

Originally posted by Abhay As much as I respect you, i don't think you've done your reading... I mean, it's already been mentioned that this is the reason why a lot of the Hip-Hop artists out there use Instrumentals before mixing in the vocals... speaking of which.... how can you accurately throw on an ACapella on top of an instrumental... do you have to have the tracks... "beatmatched", or playing at the same speed, so to speak? (In RnB/Hip-Hop)

Don't worry Abhay, I can handle healthy discussion as much as the next man...

I hear you, but don't agree. My initial post was not aimed at you personally for starting the thread, just the fact that you have people who aren't totally clued up totally and are stating that things are harder than they are... and this goes for both genres.

You mention digitization.
But keep in mind that digitized beats is a more resent development in the history of music and Hip Hop has been around for longer than I have been alive so a lot of the good 'real' Hip Hop will not benefit from this technology.

Any Hip Hop DJ worth his salt will own stacks of old Hip Hop which does suffer from this issue. Speaking from personal experience I was both a Hip Hop DJ and turntablist in the 80s and 90s. That's why the Electro side of it was much easier to work with. The electro was always easier as it was created with drum machines as indeed the Hip in about 85 went through a phase of the same type of rythm structure. Around the time Public Enemy came out (late 86ish) that all changed and samplers started being used more. Although in this period the human drummer factor was still an issue as the samples were still not digitized.

As Sampling technology has improved it does become easier to deal with. But you do also get a lot of groups who have gone away from the idea of loops and started using real drums too which again introduces the problem that I mentioned about human drummers.

Edit - It's also worth remembering that the samplers of that time were crude devices and this goes for even the top of the range EMU-SP1200 which did not give the option of wave editing as we know it so the drum loops were defianatly not as tight.

If you listen to various different styles within the genre you will also notice that some depend specifically on having loops that arent actually cut in the right place so you get an off tempo style sound. Typical Wu-Tang trait.

Things like Beatmunging and applications like Re-Cycle have made a large difference, as has time stretching technology etc.

But also remember that a lot of producers in Hip Hop don't use it as they feel that it damages the flow of the sample and would rather deal with this than a less soulfull sample.

It does depend on the production ideology used by the producers but it does vary greatly, so I conceed in that aspect that it may not be a problem these days... only problem is that I can't personally stand the new Hip Hop... well Rap actually as Hip Hop is technically the collective term for Rapping, Scratching, Breakin, and Graffiti.

---------------

Accapellas...

With regards to the question about accapellas. If the Accapella is from the same source then it would in theory go at the same speed as the instrumental. The only thing you have to watch out for with some is that the pauses don't always correspond to the length of the instrumental breaks in the vocal version.

But even if you start with the instrumental you don't necessarilly have to use the accapella, you can cut in the vocal but just juggle it in or use cut backs.

Or just hit the stop button and drop the Pharoah Monche - Simon Says intro.

quote:

WEll, RnB DJs I know claiming that trance is easy and requires no skill, and is over respected... And everyone i know (that doesn't DJ) agreeing that RnB must surely be harder...

I agree, that would anoy me too as they clearly don't know what it takes to be good edm DJs (or probably don't). Simple test is just to let them put their money where their mouth is and make them mix edm.
And they say it's over respected.... hmmmm this is where tune selection comes into it. It's not your skill as a DJ that defines you it's what you do with your music. Your skill is secondary. That is in most cases what makes the greats great. And I bet you this is true even for RnB.

The art of beatmatching isn't a hard skill to learn, and genre is not important as the fundamentals are the same, but as you don't practice with a particular style of music you are not going to be as aware if the intricacies.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Ricky H So that means that the "proper" way of mixing trance is wait till the last 32 bars of the trance song and overlap it with the first 32 bars of the incoming song. Isn't that the proper way to mix trance?...yes and no.....yes, meaning that the way trance is structured this would be the proper way to mix, no, meaning that there is no creativity.

Not sure if you are stating that this is how we do it because it's the only option available to us and follow this blindly and have no creativity as a result, or you are stating that if we following this it would be boring but we should break the rules?

In the case of the later I agree, it's all about creativity. If you are refering to the former then I disagree with you and would state that you haven't understood the art of DJing, but as I said I am not entirely sure what you mean.

Sure it does tend to follow a certain partern but so does Rap and RnB. Virtually all western music does, but it's the DJs job to understand it and then use it creatively and then ulitmately break the rules, I'm sure you probably agree.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by Abhay It's been months since i've touched a deck, but i'm pretty sure the number of beats in the outro and intro are different in a lot of tracks... but don't quote me on that....

No i was wrong there, it is 32 bars...

BUt personally, i think that's way too late a stage to mix in the next track. There should always be a variation, and creativity. It's not about counting beats.

About 50% of my mixes I start lining up the tracks on my headphones long before the outro finishes (usually shortly after the breakdown)...

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