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-- Losing the PR war at home and abroad (Afghanistan related)
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^^^ Ah yes, an thinly-veiled attack on my patriotism/nationalism. How quaint. The rest of your post hasn't really broken any new ground in the thread, so I'll respectfully acknowledge the post... but there's nothing really new or relevant to address.

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If you think Canada has very little to gain from being in Afghanistan, then why do you agree that Canada should be there still?

Because there is room to do good, and we have made leaps and bounds (especially for the cause of women and co-op education in Afghanistan). I'm cautious, however, to see Canada get pulled into the same bear trap and economic bleeding that the Soviets did a couple decades ago.... esp. if it ends up being all for nothing, with an attritioned withdrawl after a decade of causualties and billions of dollars.

It's good to see some relatively-intelligent discourse on this board. I think I'll stick around.

Oh... and Eldar. Although I never play, I just paint 'em up.

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Originally posted by Shug Because there is room to do good, and we have made leaps and bounds (especially for the cause of women and co-op education in Afghanistan). I'm cautious, however, to see Canada get pulled into the same bear trap and economic bleeding that the Soviets did a couple decades ago.... esp. if it ends up being all for nothing, with an attritioned withdrawl after a decade of causualties and billions of dollars.

The major difference between Soviet and NATO in Afghanistan is that Soviet stayed as occupiers, where as NATO is invited to stay by Afghans. (well, most of them)

The level of resistance faced by NATO is nowhere near the level Red Army faced.

I'm curious to see level of funding Canadian govt put towards CIDA and other humanitarian projects though. Last I recall is something like 800million over 5 years for Afghanistan.

We'll have to see though. You add religious extremism to the mix and anything can happen. (Although most of that stuff seems to be directed in Iraq than Afghanistan)

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Originally posted by Shug ^^^ Ah yes, an thinly-veiled attack on my patriotism/nationalism. How quaint.

No idea what you're talking about...but ok...

That certainly wasn't my attempt, I was just posting how I felt about it.

I guess the second thing behind insta-gratification would be ego then...

I was talking about this line:

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I'm very proud of them and so should you.

Read in a certain way, it implies that I'm not proud of the Canadian military forces. Down south, it's a common attack from the right when someone criticizes the administration's actions and policies.

I love reading the conservative love-in here...problem is that whether or not the left supported this war, the reality is that the world and the info related to rationalizing this war has changed dramatically.

Conservative American agression was built on lies. Then we go to war. To support it.

And since public opinion will blame the current, rather than the previous administration the right will be out and the left will look like they were installed, with the nuts to change the war agenda.

Poor right.

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Originally posted by 7-4-7 I love reading the conservative love-in here...problem is that whether or not the left supported this war, the reality is that the world and the info related to rationalizing this war has changed dramatically. Conservative American agression was built on lies. Then we go to war. To support it. And since public opinion will blame the current, rather than the previous administration the right will be out and the left will look like they were installed, with the nuts to change the war agenda. Poor right.

Don't confuse Afghanistan with Iraq

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Originally posted by EvilTree Don't confuse Afghanistan with Iraq

i didnt.

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Originally posted by 7-4-7 i didnt.

Care to explain your reasoning? If you're going to make a statement such as you did, ppl do get curious

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Originally posted by EvilTree Care to explain your reasoning? If you're going to make a statement such as you did, ppl do get curious

which statement, there were a couple.

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Originally posted by 7-4-7 which statement, there were a couple.

Mainly curious why you think Afghanistan and Iraq is same thing. (Or am I mistaken?)

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Originally posted by 7-4-7 Conservative American agression was built on lies.

I guess you're referring to Iraq and Afghanistan?
Maybe the US should have just come out and said it was because of 9-11. However seeing that this is not a conventional war with one clear enemy (or Country)it is difficult to declare war(on a country) and get approval from the UN and public at large. Thus the WMD excuse. It's just politics for those who have a hard time with reality. Remember the Jack Nicholson line : "Because you can't handle the truth".
Bottom line is the 9-11 attack was no different than Pearl Harbour. (Except 911 targeted innocent civilians). How could you not respond to such an attack??

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Originally posted by Orbitus I guess you're referring to Iraq and Afghanistan? Maybe the US should have just come out and said it was because of 9-11. However seeing that this is not a conventional war with one clear enemy (or Country)it is difficult to declare war(on a country) and get approval from the UN and public at large. Thus the WMD excuse. It's just politics for those who have a hard time with reality. Remember the Jack Nicholson line : "Because you can't handle the truth". Bottom line is the 9-11 attack was no different than Pearl Harbour. (Except 911 targeted innocent civilians). How could you not respond to such an attack??

Originally the threat was created in Iraq, which we have all later understood was never the case, sure Hussien was a despot, however the same could be said of many countries. At the end of the day it was determined that as a result of 9/11 Iraq was felt to have WMD and Afghanistan was a sesspool of Taliban activity; people who helped a promoted the "events" of 9/11. However the original afghanistan mission was to a certain degree a success. The taliban were rendered either obsolete or they were pushed to the fringes of society. All while the iraq invasion occured, which has, to say the least been far beyond the already low expectations. I refuse to explain exactly why iraq has been such a disaster, if you dont see it then it comes down to a matter of perspective.

When I say "built" on lies, there were never weapons of mass distruction there in the first place, the republican admisitration fabricated them...is that an untrue statement?

With the taliban movement relativley muzzeled at this point...the situation there is made worse by the fact that the war against Islam in iraq, is to say the least agrivating islamic people in eastern islamic nations...and as a result, Islamic militancy is becoming worse and worse in nations that are currently under western occupation ie: Afghanistan and Iraq.

I am not misunderstanding this situation, I am saying that they are interrelated.

Sure this is not a conventional war i agree and we could argue whether it was ever right to take this mission on in the first place, But for me whether or not this is a conventional mission or not, they are failing miserably. They are losing control, america has no alliances, the sunis, shia's (pardon the SP's) and other groups are fighting wars amongst each other while maintaining their communal distrust, hate and agression against the americans.

One of the postings here made a very solid point to the effect that if you join the army, you understand the awful consequences (I may be over simplifying) however that statement says nothing for the fact that the republicans need to acknowledge that they are in a situation that they appear to have lost control, and posible the mission . They have not made that determination and continue to use the soldiers as fodder, and each day another one dies, and for what exactly?

With Canada locked up in this mess, they are fighting the groups, who will forever resist occupation.

So is it US who made it a war on Islam or did the Islamic fundamentalists that did it?

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So is it US who made it a war on Islam or did the Islamic fundamentalists that did it?

As with everything this is complicated and goes way back to the forming of isreal and the US support through Pakistan to anti soviet rebels in afghanistan. The short of it is that US money diverted through (Islamic) Pakistan was sent mostly to radical islamics (whom Pakistan supported at the time). This was great when the US was trying to thwart the soviets at the time. This funding gave great power to these radicals who have now diverted their attention to other obvious 'infidels' the isreali supporting americans. It is also worth mentioning that at the time of the soviet occupation of afghanistan the Saudis were matching every dollar sent by the Americans. The saudis obviously also supporting fundamentalist Islamic leaders.
Great idea at the time that's come back to haunt them. Not to mention lots of unaccounted for stinger missiles in circulation still.

Ok, I have to add that i'm impressed with the level of objective knowledge I'm seeing here. Not to hijack this thread but I've always had a theory that 'Trance addicts' are people with a propensity towards the abstract sciences and arts. (Techno/trance is more abstract than other forms of music). In my opinion these sorts of people are more intelligent and have more things in common than just musical tastes.

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Originally posted by EvilTree So is it US who made it a war on Islam or did the Islamic fundamentalists that did it?

^^^^ agreeing with the two above statements.
I beleive that this issue is one which has long since been in the making. What osama bin ladens orginal motivations were, are differant from those of Sadams, the taliban, insurgents and other islamic centered groups.

If you find a specific place to pinpoint blame write a book, it will sell.

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Originally posted by 7-4-7 ^^^^ agreeing with the two above statements. I beleive that this issue is one which has long since been in the making. What osama bin ladens orginal motivations were, are differant from those of Sadams, the taliban, insurgents and other islamic centered groups. If you find a specific place to pinpoint blame write a book, it will sell.

If you're going to to go that route, well, might as well go back to Christians vs Muslims since before Crusades. Because Islamic fundamentalism did not start from OBL, (though he made it cool for a lot of Muslims)

It is a difficult subject to really ponder considering there aren't many concrete facts that you can make a case out of, at least not without taking into consideration too many different factors.

The Great Satan is not the primary cause (but one of many primary cause) of rise of Islamic fundamentalism.

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Ok, I have to add that i'm impressed with the level of objective knowledge I'm seeing here. Not to hijack this thread but I've always had a theory that 'Trance addicts' are people with a propensity towards the abstract sciences and arts. (Techno/trance is more abstract than other forms of music). In my opinion these sorts of people are more intelligent and have more things in common than just musical tastes.

It takes all kinds of ppl from different culture, background, beliefs, careers in TOTA

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