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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Israel is a state created illegitamtely just like the US and Australia, by killing off and displacing the native population and settling non-indigenous people there.

I KNEW IT! this is what it's all about. all of your other arguments are accessory to this one...making them inherently void of all reason.

so how do you feel about the Western Hemishere in general, if you believe the U.S. and those dispicable Aussies are "illegitamate"?

true colors, man...true colors.

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Originally posted by Q5echo I KNEW IT! this is what it's all about.

What? You know what? What's what all about?

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Originally posted by Q5echo all of your other arguments are accessory to this one...making them inherently void of all reason.

That's by far the stupidest thing I've ever heard from you.

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Originally posted by Q5echo so how do you feel about the Western Hemishere in general, if you believe the U.S. and those dispicable Aussies are "illegitamate"? true colors, man...true colors.

No you moron, the generation(s) living in the US & Australia are far removed from their forefathers who conquered and virtually wiped out the indigenous people of each respective continet. The present generation can't be help responsible for the crimes of people so far back in History which are non-continuos now. Plus you keep forgeting the fact that I'm American dipshit . Being highly critical of the policies of the goverment doesn't mean I hate my fellow country men , infact the two have no connection whatsoever. And the Western Hemisphere "in general" consists of people living in their ancestoral homelands.

You like making alot of false assumption Q.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r I guess it depends on what your view of what today's, "Zionism" is. The Zionism of Herzl is not the Zionism of today, so I don't know if using him as an example is really valid. (especially highlighting a quote from 1895?). Sure it may support your argument, if the year was 1895, and Zionism actually stood for finding a homeland for the Jewish people, but that's just not the case now. Remember Israel was not officially a country until 1948; a lot of the quoted articles were well before that and definitely before the eradication started in Hitler's reign, which has a lot more to do with Zionism of today than where you're trying to fit it now. That's not to take away from the fact that sure, there may be prejudices within the Jewish population, but name me any place on this Earth devoid of that?

That's a ludicrous argument at best. And I guess you didn't read all of the quotes eigther. 1979 isn't fucking centuries ago you know . And if "Zionism of today is different from what it used to be," why the fuck has Israel following the exact same doctrine and modus operandi ?

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z That's a ludicrous argument at best. And I guess you didn't read all of the quotes eigther. 1979 isn't fucking centuries ago you know . And if "Zionism of today is different from what it used to be," why the fuck has Israel following the exact same doctrine and modus operandi ?

Meh it is pointless with this guy man,dont waste your energy on him,it is like talking to a brick wall.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z What? You know what? What's what all about? That's by far the stupidest thing I've ever heard from you. No you moron, the generation(s) living in the US & Australia are far removed from their forefathers who conquered and virtually wiped out the indigenous people of each respective continet. The present generation can't be help responsible for the crimes of people so far back in History which are non-continuos now. Plus you keep forgeting the fact that I'm American dipshit . Being highly critical of the policies of the goverment doesn't mean I hate my fellow country men , infact the two have no connection whatsoever. And the Western Hemisphere "in general" consists of people living in their ancestoral homelands. You like making alot of false assumption Q.

no mother ******. you said your country is "illegitamate" exemplary of "Israel" and "Australia".

so the whole of Central America is legit to you because why? they look like Spaniards?

are Canadians living in their ancestoral homeland?

you need to clarify your shit for us before you go off backpedalling about "indigenous" rights of the rest of the world when there were Jews in Palestine for the last 2000 years. lets debate that "moron"

i didn't say you hate you countrymen but you leave little fucking doubt when you say your country is illegitamate.

you've lost the propaganda debate. no sense in digging yourself an indigenous hole

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z What? You know what? What's what all about?

i had a suspicion you didn't think Israel was legitimate as a sovereign nation.

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That's by far the stupidest thing I've ever heard from you.

it makes a lot of sense though, doesn't it?

if you don't think Israel exists legitimately to start off with then it doesn't matter to you whether the propaganda is for or against Israel as a point of contention because in your mind Israel has no right to exist in the first place.

all that bullshit about logical implications means nothing to you really IMO.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z why the fuck has Israel following the exact same doctrine and modus operandi ?

I still haven't seen any evidence of this other than some useless quotes from totally different era and I'm just supposed to go with ONE from 1979??
You can do better than that...

[EDIT]
Maybe to explain it a little clearer for us, what do you believe Zionism is today and do you believe in the existence of Israel?
It's obvious this is a stumbling block for both of us.
If we're to understand where you're coming from, this definitely needs to be addressed.

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Originally posted by Q5echo no mother ******. you said your country is "illegitamate" exemplary of "Israel" and "Australia".

No, I didn't. I said:

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Israel is a state created illegitamtely just like the US and Australia, by killing off and displacing the native population and settling non-indigenous people there.

There's a difference between their creation and present existance. We're not exactly going around killing native Americans and Aboriginals anymore, and taking away their land. Plus it would be kind of hard to do anyways that since they're hardly any of them left . Israel on the other hand is engaged in this process and has been since the last half century. And the underlying propaganda isn't terribly different from the rationalization used to justify it; dehuminization. Replace "savage" Indians with "savage" Arabs. That the way systematic destruction of a people and and a culture has always been rationalized.

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Originally posted by Q5echo so the whole of Central America is legit to you because why? they look like Spaniards?

Well, Latin America is mixed (native American & Spanish blood for the most part). So their ancestors are people on both sides of the conflict.

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Originally posted by Q5echo are Canadians living in their ancestoral homeland?

No.

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Originally posted by Q5echo you need to clarify your shit for us before you go off backpedalling about "indigenous" rights of the rest of the world when there were Jews in Palestine for the last 2000 years. lets debate that "moron"

The Jews in Palestine prior to immigration and the creation of the state of Israel got along just fine with their Christians & Muslim counterparts. The vast majority of Israeli's there now are not native to the region. Ashkenazis, Russian Jews, and Jews from other parts of the world who were brought and settled in are not Middle Eastern, and therefor not indigenous to the region. So there is no meaningful debate on that issue "moron."

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Originally posted by Q5echo i didn't say you hate you countrymen but you leave little fucking doubt when you say your country is illegitamate.

You should read what I wrote at the beggining again. If you think genocide and theft is a legitimate means of settling in foreign lands, that explains your support for the state of Israel and it's policies.

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Originally posted by Q5echo you've lost the propaganda debate. no sense in digging yourself an indigenous hole

The opressed and persecuted don't need propaganda to give their plight and concerns legitimacy, reality is more than enough to make their case. The agressors on the other hand can only justify their position using propaganda, twisted logic, and distorted morality.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r I still haven't seen any evidence of this other than some useless quotes from totally different era and I'm just supposed to go with ONE from 1979?? You can do better than that...

I gave you a shit load of quotes, not one. The evidence is there in the ideological literature and the practices over the last half century. Case closed. Your arrogance and dismissal is amazing.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r [EDIT] Maybe to explain it a little clearer for us, what do you believe Zionism is today

I'm not answering a retarded question like that, again.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r and do you believe in the existence of Israel? It's obvious this is a stumbling block for both of us. If we're to understand where you're coming from, this definitely needs to be addressed.

What kind of a question is that? Do you believe in mass murder, dehumanization, expulsion from your own home, and theft?

That being said, I have no problem with legitimate immigration that doesn't involve all of the above. But that's not my decision to make. It's the decision of the host population. So what I think is fairly irrelevant. Just so you know, I believe in peaceful coexistance. And that certainly doesn't come about by more murder, theft, persecution, and dehumanizing and humiliating treatment.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Meh it is pointless with this guy man,dont waste your energy on him,it is like talking to a brick wall.

Indeed. He asked me the same question again, which was retarted to being with.

Just a quick reply (as I'm in a hurry and just skimmed the thread)...

Let's all not confuse Zionism and neo-Zionism. Zionism, as it stands today I guess, is the belief that Israel should simply be allowed to exist. Neo-Zionism is the goal of establishing Greater Israel in Gaza and the West Bank.

When Shaolin is criticising "Zionism" (I think?) he is criticising Neo-Zionism (ie all the settlers and those who support their activities). When then have those criticising him using Zionism as the belief Israel should be allowed to exist.

Personally, I am against Neo-Zionism (ie settlements etc) and for Zionism (ie that Israel should be allowed to exist)

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I gave you a shit load of quotes, not one. The evidence is there in the ideological literature and the practices over the last half century. Case closed. Your arrogance and dismissal is amazing. I'm not answering a retarded question like that, again. What kind of a question is that? Do you believe in mass murder, dehumanization, expulsion from your own home, and theft? That being said, I have no problem with legitimate immigration that doesn't involve all of the above. But that's not my decision to make. It's the decision of the host population. So what I think is fairly irrelevant. Just so you know, I believe in peaceful coexistance. And that certainly doesn't come about by more murder, theft, persecution, and dehumanizing and humiliating treatment.

Then you sir, need to learn about Western society in general and thanks for side-stepping all the questions.
You've pretty much answered everything.

I remember listening to Eli "Weasel' some time ago. I forget the details, but he was dong his usual "we must never forget" speeches. He went into lurid detail aboutthe horrors of the holocaust. I guess such words fall on deaf ears in the great and glorious nation of Israel...perhaps its that pent up angst from WW2?

Of course they can't take it out on the Germans who slaughtered MILLIONS so why not fire on innocent Palestinan women? If only those "tough" and "brave" (yes firing on children and women with a high-powerd assault rifle is a sure sign of bravery) should watch some reels of those Nazi soldiers sniping down civilians for the fun of it

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Originally posted by LeSamourai If only those "tough" and "brave" (yes firing on children and women with a high-powerd assault rifle is a sure sign of bravery) should watch some reels of those Nazi soldiers sniping down civilians for the fun of it

I missed the ones with the women and children shielding armed Jewish militants. Would you provide a link please?

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Then you sir, need to learn about Western society in general

No not really. You need to learn how to not be a hypocrite and have a minimal sense of morality when dealing those you don't consider to be "your people."

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r and thanks for side-stepping all the questions. You've pretty much answered everything.

I answered all of them you lying dishonest fuck, except your last line of horseshit. "Is Zionism today what it used to be?" The only reason why you're resorted to such asinine logic is because there is no justification for any of it.

Something else many of you delusional people should read:

51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration With the Nazis by Lenni Brenner

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From Wikipedia: Lenni Brenner (born 1937) is an American Marxist historian. In the 1960s, Brenner was a prominent civil rights activist and a prominent opponent of the Vietnam War. Brenner was born into an Orthodox Jewish family. He became an atheist at age 12 and a Marxist at age 15. Brenner's involvement with the American Civil Rights Movement began when he met James Farmer of the Congress of Racial Equality, later the organizer of the "freedom rides" of the early 1960s. He also worked with Bayard Rustin, later the organizer of Martin Luther King's 1963 "I had a dream" March on Washington. (Neither were Marxists.) Brenner was arrested three times during civil rights sit-ins in the San Francisco Bay Area. He spent 39 months in jail when a court revoked his probation for marijuana possession, because of his activities during the Berkeley Free Speech Movement at the University of California in 1964. He was an anti-war activist from the first days of the Vietnam war, speaking frequently at rallies in the Bay Area. In 1963 he organized the Committee for Narcotic Reform in Berkeley. In 1968 he co-founded the National Association for Irish Justice, the American affiliate of the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association. In the 1990s, he and Kwame Ture (aka Stokely Carmichael), the legendary "Black Power" leader of the Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee, co-founded the Committee against Zionism and Racism. They also published The Anti-War Activist.

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A Review from Amazon: 243 of 300 people found the following review helpful: Rating: 5 Stars Lenni Brenner is a Courageous Speaker of the Truth, October 11, 2003 Reviewer: William Hughes (Baltimore, MD USA) History can be deceptive. It's fair to say that some of the sensational never-published-before documents, in this book, will shock those who have accepted Zionism and its supposed history, at face value, as a political movement that was the hope of the Jews. Lenni Brenner, the intrepid author of "Zionism in the Age of Dictators," reveals disturbing new evidence in his latest effort, that suggest just the opposite. In fact, he makes a compelling case that the Zionist record was "dishonorable." You can consider this excellent tome as a worthy sequel to his first expose' on the myopic Zionist zealots of that bygone era. For openers, Brenner showed how the Zionists had a long history of shameless cooperation with the Nazis, especially after the dictator Adolph Hitler had came to power in 1933. The Zionists were also in bed, to some extent, with the other members of what later became known as WWII's "Axis of Evil," that included Benito Mussolini's Italy, and Tojo Hideki's Japan. For example, in March 29,1936, Zionists praised Il Duce, and his regime, at the opening of a maritime school, funded by the Fascist government, at Civitavecchia. This is where a Zionist youth group, the "Betar," trained its sailors for the future Revisionist state. The speakers ignored the fact that on Oct. 3, 1935, Italian troops had invaded Abyssinia. On another front, the "Third Congress of the Jewish Community of the Far East," was held in Jan., 1940, in Harbin, Manchuria, then reeling under a brutal military occupation by the Japanese imperial forces. At that time, too, Tokyo was already aligned with Hitler and Italy's Mussolini, in the notorious Anti-Comintern Pact. Also, keep in mind, that the Japanese's murderous "Rape of Nanking," had occurred in Dec., 1937, and the "Crystal Night" incident on Nov. 9, 1938. Nevertheless, the Zionist confab went out of its way to legitimize the Japanese occupation by certifying it as a guarantor of the "equality of all citizens," in that beleaguered land. The Zionist also had a trade plan with the Berlin government by which German Jews could redeem their property in Nazi goods exported to then British-occupied Palestine. And to top it all off, the infamous SS-Hptscharf. Adolf Eichmann, had visited Palestine, in October, 1937, as the guest of the Zionists. He also met, in Egypt, with Feivel Polkes, a Zionist operative, whom Eichmann described as a "leading Haganah functionary." The chain-smoking Polkes was also on the Nazis' payroll "as an informer." Brenner isn't the first writer to address the mostly taboo subject of how the Zionist leadership cooperated with the Nazis. Rolf Hilberg's seminal "The Destruction of European Jews"; Hannah Arendt's "Eichmann in Jerusalem"; Ben Hecht's "Perfidy"; Edwin Black's "The Transfer Agreement"; Francis R. Nicosia's "The Third Reich and the Palestine Question"; Rudolf Vrba and Alan Bestic's "I Cannot Forgive"; and Rafael Medoff's "The Deadening Silence: American Jews and the Holocaust," also dared, with varying public success. After the Holocaust began in 1942, Eichmann dealt regularly with Dr. Rudolf Kastner, a Hungarian Jew, whom he considered a "fanatical Zionist." Kastner was later assassinated in Israel as a Nazi collaborator. At issue then, however, was the bargaining over the eventual fate of Hungary's Jews, who were slated for liquidation in the Nazi-run death camps. Eichmann said this about Kastner, the Zionist representative, "I believe that [he] would have sacrificed a thousand or a hundred thousand of his blood to achieve his political goal. He was not interested in old Jews or those who had become assimilated into Hungarian society. `You can have the others,' he would say, `but let me have this group here.' And because Kastner rendered us a great service by helping keep the deportation camps peaceful. I would let his groups escape." Readers, too, will be surprised to learn, that after the Nuremberg Anti-Jewish Race Laws were enacted in Sept., 1935, that there were only two flags that were permitted to be displayed in all of Nazi Germany. One was Hitler's favorite, the Swastika. The other was the blue and white banner of Zionism. The Zionists were also allowed to publish their own newspaper. The reasons for this Reich-sponsored favoritism was, according to the author: The Zionists and the Nazis had a common interest, making German Jews emigrate to Palestine. As early as June 21, 1933, the German Zionist Federation was sending a secret memorandum to the Nazis, which said, in part: "It is our opinion that an answer to the Jewish question truly satisfying to the national state [German Reich] can be brought about only with the collaboration of the Jewish movement that aims as a social, cultural and moral renewal of Jewry- -indeed, that such a national renewal must first create the decisive social and spiritual premises for all solutions..." Incredibly, Avraham Stern, the leader of the notorious "Stern Gang," late in 1940, made a written proposal to Hitler, by which the Jewish militias in Palestine, would fight on "Germany's side," in the war against England, in exchange for the Nazis help in resolving the "Jewish Question" in Europe, and their assistance in creating an "historic Jewish state." By this date, German troops had already marched into Prague, invaded Poland, and had built the first concentration camp at Auschwitz. The deranged Stern had further bragged about how the Zionist organizations were "closely related to the totalitarian movements of Europe in [their] ideology and structure." Stern's obscene proposal was found in the German embassy, in Turkey, after WWII. Finally, I think Brenner was right, when he wrote, "This book presents 51 historic documents to indict Zionism for repeated attempts to collaborate with Adolf Hitler. The evidence, not I, will convince you of the truth of this issue...Exposing the Zionist role in the Nazis era is part of the scrutiny of the past, required of historians."

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I answered all of them you lying dishonest fuck, except your last line of horseshit. "Is Zionism today what it used to be?" The only reason why you're resorted to such asinine logic is because there is no justification for any of it.

wow, did we touch a soft spot?

Maybe you should read what I was reading then; it might explain where I'm coming from...

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While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, the modern movement was mainly secular, beginning largely as a response to rampant antisemitism in Europe during the 19th century...

>>Source<<

So that's not to say you're wrong, but in the context you put it, was a little misleading since Zionism don't have the same meaning today as when the founder founded it.

So am I still lieing?

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r wow, did we touch a soft spot? Maybe you should read what I was reading then; it might explain where I'm coming from... >>Source<< So that's not to say you're wrong, but in the context you put it, was a little misleading since Zionism don't have the same meaning today as when the founder founded it. So am I still lieing?

What the fuck does being secular or not have to with anything? And at least fucking read what you post.

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19th Century

When are those quotes from? 1882 - 1979!

god damn women standing outside the god damn mosque.. that'll show em.

oh, wait, sorry, that's all wrong.. i mean, uh..

crazy muslims.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z What the fuck does being secular or not have to with anything? And at least fucking read what you post.

What?
As opposed to wanting a state for the Jews....?
Only the difference between what Zionism stood for then (wanting a homeland) and what it 'mostly' stands for now (secular / antisemitism) thanks to the Nazis.
The meaning has changed for the most part, however you're throwing it around like it only has one - some evil, hideous agenda with absolutely zero support in that context in which you paint it other than some, 'quotes'; wow.

I'm AM reading it, are you?

Besides there's no argument that those the Israelis were after are beneath using human shields; it's very well documented and should come to no surprise to anyone.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r What? As opposed to wanting a state for the Jews....? Only the difference between what Zionism stood for then (wanting a homeland) and what it 'mostly' stands for now (secular / antisemitism) thanks to the Nazis. The meaning has changed for the most part, however you're throwing it around like it only has one - some evil, hideous agenda with absolutely zero support in that context in which you paint it other than some, 'quotes'; wow. I'm AM reading it, are you? Besides there's no argument that those the Israelis were after are beneath using human shields; it's very well documented and should come to no surprise to anyone.

Its simple, dont complicate the issue. Zionism strives to maintain a jewsih character in a previously arab inhabited land. IN order to keepthat jewish character, FORCE must be used to keep the Jews a majority.. otherswise, Isaels fundemental pillar will collapse.

Zionism is a racist, and disgusting ideoleogy.

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Originally posted by Cyrus King Zionism is a racist, and disgusting ideoleogy.

Unlike Jihadism of course, in which case any excuse will do...

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Unlike Jihadism of course, in which case any excuse will do...

I hate all religions, you should know that by now

zionism isnt a religion...

I swear to god some days I wish I was an israeli citizen so I could join the army. And those women were shielding terrorists no reason not to shoot at them.

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