TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Political Discussion / Debate
-- Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews
Pages (3): « 1 [2] 3 »

z, clean your pm box!

You could have just posted that in the PDDCOR, I check that pretty often. Anyways, give me a sec.

EDIT: Alright, I got rid of a few. That should be good for now.

Shaolin,

I know my history very well.

My premise lies in the fact that Israel exists because the Jews wish to have one nation in which they are not a minority to be governed by the whims of the majority.

It does not matter what some people think the Torrah says about this (afterall, what does the Torrah say about Homosexualism? The Torah also says you should also marry your brother sister if your brother dies for some reason.).

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Shaolin, I know my history very well. My premise lies in the fact that Israel exists because the Jews wish to have one nation in which they are not a minority to be governed by the whims of the majority. It does not matter what some people think the Torrah says about this (afterall, what does the Torrah say about Homosexualism? The Torah also says you should also marry your brother sister if your brother dies for some reason.).

So your principle justifies the occupation of Palestinian lands thats been going on since 1948.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium So your principle justifies the occupation of Palestinian lands thats been going on since 1948.

There is no such thing as Palestinian land, you have read your history wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus There is no such thing as Palestinian land, you have read your history wrong.

You read your history wrong. Palestine was part of the British Mandate, it was called Palestine for a long time - in 5th century CE: Byzantine Diocese of Palaestina I (Philistia, Judea and Samaria) and Palaestina II (Galilee and Perea).

It was called Palaestina until the Ottoman invasion - After the Ottoman conquest, the name "Palestine" disappeared as the official name of an administrative unit, as the Turks often called their (sub)provinces after the capital.

Formal use of the English word "Palestine" returned with the British Mandate. Finally in early 1947 the British Government announced their desire to terminate the Mandate, and passed the responsibility over Palestine to the United Nations.

"Current status
Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and neighboring Arab states eliminated Palestine as a distinct territory. With the establishment of Israel, the remaining lands were divided amongst Egypt, Syria and Jordan.

In addition to the UN-partitioned area it was allotted, Israel captured 26 percent of the Mandate territory west of the Jordan river. Jordan captured and annexed about 21% of the Mandate territory, known today as the West Bank. Jerusalem was divided, with Jordan taking the eastern parts, including the Old City, and Israel taking the western parts. The Gaza Strip was captured by Egypt."

Moostly quoted from Wikipedia. Seems like its you who are a big Zionist and obviously with disregard to the ACTUAL history, and I cant believe I have to waste my time and give you a history lesson.

Today a large portion of Israel is formerly Arab land that Jewish state has seizes by wars, and Israel nullified Resolution 181 of the UN.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus There is no such thing as Palestinian land, you have read your history wrong.

There was Palestinian land under the UN partition plan. But Israel wiped it off the map

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z So I hope for the sake of the Jewish people, and the rest of us too, this issue is resolved.

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King There was Palestinian land under the UN partition plan. But Israel wiped it off the map

I see we only have our pro-UN goggles on when it suits us best

quote:

Originally posted by Dopey I see we only have our pro-UN goggles on when it suits us best

Actually.. when the ISraeli camp consistently brings up that the UN partitioned the land.. i also try to mention that Israel failed to agree with the UN on the fundemental partition, since they violated it and wiped Palestine off the map.

Look, I won't get into the politics of it but the truth of the history is exactly what I said: "There is no such thing as Palestinian land".

Meaning, there has never been a nationally sovereign Palestinian entity that practiced its control over territory in Israel, the disputed territories, or anywhere else on this earth.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Look, I won't get into the politics of it but the truth of the history is exactly what I said: "There is no such thing as Palestinian land". Meaning, there has never been a nationally sovereign Palestinian entity that practiced its control over territory in Israel, the disputed territories, or anywhere else on this earth.

I see your point. Does it mean that then it justified the Jewish occupation and forced migration of many Palestinians?

People of Palestinian lands enjoyed occassional instances of independence throughout the centuries after the Exodus of Jews from Juadea, which they lost again at the onslaught of the 1948 war.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium . Does it mean that then it justified the Jewish occupation and forced migration of many Palestinians?

yes.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium People of Palestinian lands enjoyed occassional instances of independence throughout the centuries after the Exodus of Jews from Juadea, which they lost again at the onslaught of the 1948 war.

Actually the People of Palestinian lands never enjoyed any instance of national independence throughout the centuries since before the biblical Jews conquered their (Cnanites) areas, near 3500 years ago.

You can see this at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine
The table of contents list all the rulers and the time periods of the area. There is not one gap in this history where an independent state (that was not Jewish) existed on these lands.


Not that I believe the history has anything really to do with this conflict, but if you are going to spew history, at least spew the facts.

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Actually the People of Palestinian lands never enjoyed any instance of national independence throughout the centuries since before the biblical Jews conquered their (Cnanites) areas, near 3500 years ago. You can see this at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine The table of contents list all the rulers and the time periods of the area. There is not one gap in this history where an independent state (that was not Jewish) existed on these lands. Not that I believe the history has anything really to do with this conflict, but if you are going to spew history, at least spew the facts.

According to you then, and ethnic groups fighting for independence have no rights because they never existed as such independent entities before, for example even such breakaway republics like Kosovo. In your view, the local people of such lands have no right to have an independent nation just because they were denied their freedom throughout history. What about other nations, like Belarus, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan - all of which never existed independently as such entities before? Why do you think some people who first of all, mostly are not from their area (Jews) in where currently is Israel, they come in on foreign land and declare it to be theirs, denying the local groups who lived there for thousands of years the right to self-determmination? Are you OK then with the oppression and destruction of native peoples around the world who for most part didnt have the concept of a powerful country but lived freely for many years before their lands were seized?

Your concept is that of I come, I take the land and its mine.

I disagree.

And, according to your principle, looking back at the history of Palestine, if some other country were to take over Israel this century, be it Egypt or Syria or whatever, it will be justified because it has happened many times in history.

How is this for a simplified explanation of this whole thing?


1947: UN creates a map, offering the Palestines/Arabs a very large chunk of land. Israel agrees to the map:

Here is a picture:

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap...t_partition.jpg

1948: Arabs REJECT that map, and the armies of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, among others, join forces, attempt to DESTROY Israel and push all of the jews into the sea.

Later in 1948:

Muslims lose the war. Israel faces down all of these armies in battle and kick their asses. So basically they say "FUCK YOU GUYS...We tried.", and take the disputed area for themselves. So in the end, the current borders of Israel today were formed the SAME WAY every other nation on the planet formed their borders...by winning a WAR over those borders. They paid the price in blood for their land.
They defeated their enemies in battle then declared their independence in that territory.

Later during the '6 day war', some of these same groups and countries again tried to destroy Israel. Once again, Israel kicks their ass. They defeated the aggressors in a war, and took another piece of their land as a penance.

Does that sum things up?

After what the Israeli people have been through in defense of that land, I fail to see how anyone can dispute their claim to it.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium According to you then, and ethnic groups fighting for independence have no rights because they never existed as such independent entities before, for example even such breakaway republics like Kosovo. In your view, the local people of such lands have no right to have an independent nation just because they were denied their freedom throughout history. What about other nations, like Belarus, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan - all of which never existed independently as such entities before? Why do you think some people who first of all, mostly are not from their area (Jews) in where currently is Israel, they come in on foreign land and declare it to be theirs, denying the local groups who lived there for thousands of years the right to self-determmination? Are you OK then with the oppression and destruction of native peoples around the world who for most part didnt have the concept of a powerful country but lived freely for many years before their lands were seized? Your concept is that of I come, I take the land and its mine. I disagree.

Look, I would have enjoyed debating with you but you have simple reading comprehension problems which would make such a debate either pointless or tedious.

This is what I wrote above:

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus Not that I believe the history has anything really to do with this conflict, but if you are going to spew history, at least spew the facts.

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt How is this for a simplified explanation of this whole thing? 1947: UN creates a map, offering the Palestines/Arabs a very large chunk of land. Israel agrees to the map: Here is a picture: http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap...t_partition.jpg 1948: Arabs REJECT that map, and the armies of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, among others, join forces, attempt to DESTROY Israel and push all of the jews into the sea. Later in 1948: Muslims lose the war. Israel faces down all of these armies in battle and kick their asses. So basically they say "FUCK YOU GUYS...We tried.", and take the disputed area for themselves. So in the end, the current borders of Israel today were formed the SAME WAY every other nation on the planet formed their borders...by winning a WAR over those borders. They paid the price in blood for their land. They defeated their enemies in battle then declared their independence in that territory. Later during the '6 day war', some of these same groups and countries again tried to destroy Israel. Once again, Israel kicks their ass. They defeated the aggressors in a war, and took another piece of their land as a penance. Does that sum things up? After what the Israeli people have been through in defense of that land, I fail to see how anyone can dispute their claim to it.

Has it ever occured to you that PALESTINE was WIPED OFF THE MAP???

and guess who did it!!!!!

There was a grwoing refugee problem in other arab nations becuase of the ethnic cleansing that was occuring..

The israeli people are defending land they stole!!..

take your head out of your ass.. youre spewing shit out of your mouth

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King Has it ever occured to you that PALESTINE was WIPED OFF THE MAP??? and guess who did it!!!!! There was a grwoing refugee problem in other arab nations becuase of the ethnic cleansing that was occuring.. The israeli people are defending land they stole!!.. take your head out of your ass.. youre spewing shit out of your mouth

Wow! Great rebuttal Cyrus!

Cyrus, when will you admit this is NOT really about any particular piece of land, but about fanatical muslims attempting to MURDER every Jew on the planet, in accordance with their twisted views of Islam? Israel could fall back into something the size of a cardboard box, and it still would not please the "Palestinians". They would insist on seeing that box burned to ashes, because it had non believers inside it.

Bottom line is, Arabs shouldn't have attacked Israel in 1948. They did, they lost, now they cry and cry and cry again.

If they wanted that land, they should have won the war. To the winner go the spoils. Ask some Native Americans. The best they can hope for now is a little slice of land. I'm not saying it is fair, but it is reality. Unless you drop a nuke on Tel-Aviv, the Jews aren't going anywhere, but I think everyone knows the consequences of that.

quote:

Originally posted by Dopey Bottom line is, Arabs shouldn't have attacked Israel in 1948. They did, they lost, now they cry and cry and cry again. If they wanted that land, they should have won the war. To the winner go the spoils. Ask some Native Americans. The best they can hope for now is a little slice of land. I'm not saying it is fair, but it is reality. Unless you drop a nuke on Tel-Aviv, the Jews aren't going anywhere, but I think everyone knows the consequences of that.

I disagree on the Native Americans behalf. It was the Americans who pushed them out using far superior weapons and technology, and genocidal methods like smallpox towels and other forms of disease (its funny how these are not considered as genocide of the native peoples). Natives werent a one powerful country fighting against United States. They were scarsely populated groups all over Americas that just wanted to live on their lands, in peace. And American government eventually pushed them out onto small native reserves where some of the rituals are STILL prohibited, and medicines (including halucinogenic herbs) that Natives used for many thousands of years before the Europeans even formed first empires on the European continent.

As I said before, its more appropriately to call all these policies expansionist in nature - even though you might have lived on your land along with predecessors for eons, I came to your land, defeated you and its mine now. And you have to follow my laws, speak my language, and forget your culture.

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt Cyrus, when will you admit this is NOT really about any particular piece of land, but about fanatical muslims attempting to MURDER every Jew on the planet, in accordance with their twisted views of Islam? Israel could fall back into something the size of a cardboard box, and it still would not please the "Palestinians". They would insist on seeing that box burned to ashes, because it had non believers inside it.

You really think this is about murdering jews?? That their land and their state of existance in suffering has nothing to do with their anger towards the occupying aggressor?

Is it just a coincidence that these arabs living in palestine just happen to be within the borders of their occupying force? Why arent Palestinians living in Jordan making it their duty to kill Jews around the middle east?

Its not about land????



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAH
AH
AHHAHAH
AH
AH
H
AH
AHAHAHH
HAH
AH
AHAH
H
AH
ahHahH
AHHAhahahahahahahahahah
ah
h
ah
ah


haha

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium I disagree on the Native Americans behalf. It was the Americans who pushed them out using far superior weapons and technology, and genocidal methods like smallpox towels and other forms of disease (its funny how these are not considered as genocide of the native peoples). Natives werent a one powerful country fighting against United States. They were scarsely populated groups all over Americas that just wanted to live on their lands, in peace. And American government eventually pushed them out onto small native reserves where some of the rituals are STILL prohibited, and medicines (including halucinogenic herbs) that Natives used for many thousands of years before the Europeans even formed first empires on the European continent. As I said before, its more appropriately to call all these policies expansionist in nature - even though you might have lived on your land along with predecessors for eons, I came to your land, defeated you and its mine now. And you have to follow my laws, speak my language, and forget your culture.

Very well said Magnetomium

People on the pro-Israeli camp constantly utilize the argument that "israel won the land by war".

So first.. the Arabs rejected the UN partition.. and the Jews accepted. Then the Jews VIOLATED the partition in order to expand their borders and cleanse the population with their organized terror squads (that later became the IDF) then they create their country ontop of 536 depopulated and destroyed villages,communities and neighborhoods, and then complain that they were attacked beucase they are "just jews"

Give me a fuckin break.

You go into a land... destroy the people and their homes.. make your own country on displaced peoples land.. and then you want PEACE???? AHAHAHA

ontop of that.. they didnt even withdraw from the original borders that were given to them by the UN.. they violated that!!!

So basically Capitalizt... America has full OWNERSHIP of Iraq then right????

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.