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-- So my friend is driving his ex girlfiend up to DC for an abortion.
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lol - the text messages I was receiving earlier are even funnier now that my suspicions were confirmed!

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Originally posted by Sunsnail Well actually that argument is flawed as well, because its illegal to commit suicide. So once you are born, you cannot legally choose not to go on with life.

That's because I'm not talking about the legal system, but morality.

In that case, I shall add that I don't condemn suicide, given the fact that it's something the one chooses to do against oneself.

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Originally posted by Ivand would you bring a child to the world knowing that you dont have the resources to maintain it?

Well, there are several solutions to this...

1) Pregnancy takes 9 months, and during this time you have the time to rethink your professional life and engage in a new career. You can't know how your life is going to be 9 months from now, so you can't simply assume you won't have the resources to maintain the child.

2) Depending on your family, you could count on the help of parents. That's up to them to decide whether they're going to take part on this.

...

n) As a last resort, you could even think of giving the child away to adoption. But, claiming that there are no other solutions means you're simply acting on bad faith.

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Originally posted by Lira But, claiming that there are no other solutions means you're simply acting on bad faith.

On this point I agree with you wholeheartedly

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Originally posted by RJT lol - the text messages I was receiving earlier are even funnier now that my suspicions were confirmed!

an abortion clinic that looks like Apollo 11? Zounds!

I assume we are not discussing a late-term abortion here, so this question seems pertinent: Is a non-conscious arrangement of cells a moral patient?

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Originally posted by Lira 1) Pregnancy takes 9 months, and during this time you have the time to rethink your professional life and engage in a new career. You can't know how your life is going to be 9 months from now, so you can't simply assume you won't have the resources to maintain the child. 2) Depending on your family, you could count on the help of parents. That's up to them to decide whether they're going to take part on this.

But cases exist in which neither of those options, nor many of the other ones that could be offered, are feasible. For a single woman already on welfare, possibly with a drug addiction, cast out from anything resembling family, to be able to raise a child is overly optimistic -- especially in an America where the face of abject poverty is a single mother with two kids and two minimum-wage jobs.

Again, I'm not arguing that abortion is ever an ideal. But as a last resort, sometimes it is the only rational choice to be made. Now, the longer this decision takes, the less likely I am to support it under any circumstance. I believe that all abortions can and should be conducted within the first trimester, well before any scientist has been able to establish significant signs of life.

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Originally posted by Demoted an abortion clinic that looks like Apollo 11? Zounds!

$49.95 at your local costco. Hear it makes great mulch as well.

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Originally posted by astroboy To me robbing someone of "choice" is not a problem in itself. The problem is that in not giving someone a choice with regard to their own life you may be forcing them to undergo an experience that is contrary to their will. A fetus has no will, it only has the potential to develop into something that has a will - a "reasonable creature in being". If the choice involved is something like circumcision, this involves pre-emptively making a decision that will permanently place a reasonable creature in being into a condition that he may not have chosen for himself had he the choice. Here robbing the creature of choice has caused it to undergo an experience against its will, for this reason the removal of choice or free will is wrong in this case. In killing a fetus you are not forcing any reasonable creature in being to undergo any experience, let alone one contrary to its will.

hhmm... the argument does seem sound, but I'm having some difficulty with the concept of a fetus having no will. Is the will to live a will? I've read reports on children trying to defend themselves from intra-uterine devices used for abortion, and I'm assuming that this is a pre-rational demonstration of a will to live.

My stance on this matter is that, given the fact that we don't have a indirect contact to the conscious of a fetus (through language, for example), I'd rather err on the safe side (i.e. that dodging from the devices is a way to "avoid harm").

ps.: By the way... is there a plural for the word "fetus"? I don't believe it's "feti"

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I assume we are not discussing a late-term abortion here, so this question seems pertinent: Is a non-conscious arrangement of cells a moral patient?

I agree, if we're going to have any sort of sensible debate about the morality of abortion, a timeframe has to be set up under which it can be discussed. First trimester is vastly different than immediately before delivery in terms of embryonic/fetal development.

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Originally posted by Lira hhmm... the argument does seem sound, but I'm having some difficulty with the concept of a fetus having no will. Is the will to live a will? I've read reports on children trying to defend themselves from intra-uterine devices used for abortion, and I'm assuming that this is a pre-rational demonstration of a will to live. My stance on this matter is that, given the fact that we don't have a indirect contact to the conscious of a fetus (through language, for example), I'd rather err on the safe side (i.e. that dodging from the devices is a way to "avoid harm"). ps.: By the way... is there a plural for the word "fetus"? I don't believe it's "feti"

The one problem I have with astroboy's argument is that using the same logic, we should not give birth to children, as it "involves pre-emptively making a decision that will permanently place a reasonable creature in being into a condition that he may not have chosen for himself had he the choice"

Fetuses defending themselves? Seems interesting.

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Originally posted by Lira ps.: By the way... is there a plural for the word "fetus"? I don't believe it's "feti"

Fetuses.

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Originally posted by Lira I'd rather err on the safe side (i.e. that dodging from the devices is a way to "avoid harm").

I really think that's only the case in late-term pregnancies. Earlier on there aren't even signs of brain waves, much less heart tissue, etc.

The question to be answered is at exactly what point does an embryo become a sentient being?

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I really think that's only the case in late-term pregnancies. Earlier on there aren't even signs of brain waves, much less heart tissue, etc. The question to be answered is at exactly what point does an embryo become a sentient being?

More than likely it's a gradual process. Way too much gray area to be concrete.

You know what I say guys? Abortions for some, children for others, and birth control for intelligent folks! That's how it should be!

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Originally posted by RJT You know what I say guys? Abortions for some, children for others, and birth control for intelligent folks! That's how it should be!

lol

/thread.

I'm gonna go watch a movie, but I'll probably check to see if there are any more arguments in the morning. Thoughtful conversation in the cor, who woulda thunk?

I like conversations like these. I am hopelessly addicted to philosophy, for better or worse.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles I like conversations like these. I am hopelessly addicted to philosophy, for better or worse.

Yeah, me too. I was going to minor in it, but I get tentative about taking a position sometimes. I took two courses before I realized I wasn't going to be able to finish the minor with everything else on my table, so I unfortunately never pursued it. I like philosophy though -- it really teaches you how to think, whether outside the box or more concretely.

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Originally posted by Sunsnail The one problem I have with astroboy's argument is that using the same logic, we should not give birth to children, as it "involves pre-emptively making a decision that will permanently place a reasonable creature in being into a condition that he may not have chosen for himself had he the choice"

Well constricting freedoms in some way is inevitable, and we do have that biological imperative to breed. My point is that if there is any wrong in depriving a person of choice, it lies in that line of reasoning.

But your point is well made and demonstrates that in many cases not having an abortion may be even more immoral than having one. If people were more mindful of the point you raised before they bumped uglies there would be a lot less suffering in this world. In following our biological imperative to breed people should consider whether we have taken every precaution to ensure that we have provided the creature we are about to bring into this world with optimal conditions for development and growth.

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Originally posted by Lira hhmm... the argument does seem sound, but I'm having some difficulty with the concept of a fetus having no will. Is the will to live a will? I've read reports on children trying to defend themselves from intra-uterine devices used for abortion, and I'm assuming that this is a pre-rational demonstration of a will to live.

There is ofcourse the problem of defining will and intelligence to comprehend it's environment or what it is undergoing. My stance is that humans have special rights with regards to their will (as opposed to animals) as a result of their intelligence and capacity to comprehend the experiences they undergo. As far as I'm aware for a foetus in the first trimester there is little or no higher brain activity...

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ps.: By the way... is there a plural for the word "fetus"? I don't believe it's "feti"

I believe we've all been lazy in our spelling, it's actually "foetus" and "foetuses" in the plural form.

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Originally posted by Lira hhmm... the argument does seem sound, but I'm having some difficulty with the concept of a fetus having no will. Is the will to live a will? I've read reports on children trying to defend themselves from intra-uterine devices used for abortion, and I'm assuming that this is a pre-rational demonstration of a will to live.

Well that's quite an assumption. If a tomato happens to roll off the cutting board when I'm reaching for the knife am I to assume it has a will to escape being cut?

Also, the level of development is pretty important here. I doubt we'll see a blastula exhibing any behavior that could be conceivably interpreted as "defending itself" anytime soon.

quote:

My stance on this matter is that, given the fact that we don't have a indirect contact to the conscious of a fetus (through language, for example), I'd rather err on the safe side (i.e. that dodging from the devices is a way to "avoid harm").

It would seem to me that the safe side is to protect the rights that clearly do exist, including a woman's right to personal sovereignty, before we start worrying about making guesses about the rights which may or may not exist that an entity of dubious capacity for volition might or might not want to exercise if in fact it's capable of having an opinion on the matter at all.

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Originally posted by Arbiter

Welcome.

We've been waiting for you.

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Originally posted by astroboy Welcome. We've been waiting for you.

Works just like clockwork I suppose. Can't resist an argument.

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Originally posted by Lira That's because I'm not talking about the legal system, but morality. In that case, I shall add that I don't condemn suicide, given the fact that it's something the one chooses to do against oneself. Well, there are several solutions to this... 1) Pregnancy takes 9 months, and during this time you have the time to rethink your professional life and engage in a new career. You can't know how your life is going to be 9 months from now, so you can't simply assume you won't have the resources to maintain the child. 2) Depending on your family, you could count on the help of parents. That's up to them to decide whether they're going to take part on this. ... n) As a last resort, you could even think of giving the child away to adoption. But, claiming that there are no other solutions means you're simply acting on bad faith.

well i dont agree with you like someone said some people dont have any of these solutions offered by them.....a teenager who has no diploma at all what can she expect even for a job?then i dont think u can always count on parents ....and giving the child away to adoption lira......

well i hope u are aware than only a few kids are lucky and privileged to be given in adoption....a lot of these kids will end up in "host families" (dunno if it's the good word) but these host families can be good and can be bad because they get paid by the state so some of the families just do it for the money and dont care about the kid and in worse cases they just cause him harm

so u gotta be more realistic i think why keep a baby if u dont want it ?if u have no desire to raise it and love it?
indeed the story u wrote about the raped girl who kept the baby .....it's the first time i heard something like that but i think it's exceptionnal because i rather heard stories of raped girls who aborted ......

so i dont think the state should force you to decide what u want when it comes to give birth to an another human being and then raise it ....support it because i consider abortion like a right to say no like a kind of freedom offered to women but then again i condemn excesses i condemn abuses but unfortunately when u offer something to people some always abuse of it so that's why its controled but not enough
the question of morality .....well morality is something subjective i would say but the question is do moral has to condemn all our actions or at least the whole politic of the state?

i dont really know but though i think moral is useful

and yeah u spoke about the foetus i would rather call it at this state "embryo" and no the embryo isnt here at least considered like a human being ........

If a foetus in a late stage of pregnancy has been considered a few times like belonging to the family (was to go through problem of immigration) i dont think it has been the case of the embryo .....so can we ever consider it at this time like a full human being with habilities?

i dont think so it isnt build yet

babies in the females body are just gross parasites, seriously, gross.

Accidents happen even with contraception, in fact very few of them are 100% effective. So does things like 'statuatory rape of a minor', which I'm hoping the original poster isn't making fun of and sincerely hope the girls 16 or older.
As for my pro-choice when it comes to terminating a pregnancy, stay out of my way with the bibles, placards and abuse or you'll have a real cause to complain about homicide.

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