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-- Psychiatrists are pushers
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quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T eh, c'mon, who has more control of his happiness and is generally happier, a man who spent a year meditating, or a man who spent a year on the most suitable medication developed? (with both being equally depressed before the year)

you tell me. can positive thinking or meditating actually modify how the neural pathways of the brain function? i am well aware of the effects of placebos in the medical field, but to argue we all possess the capacity to alter our biological make-up through the "power of the mind" is unsubstantiated bullshit.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you tell me. can positive thinking or meditating actually modify how the neural pathways of the brain function? i am well aware of the effects of placebos in the medical field, but to argue we all possess the capacity to alter our biological make-up through the "power of the mind" is unsubstantiated bullshit.

True. It depends on the cause of depression. Was it biological or in the mind?

edit: Yea, your mind does actually have a physical effect on your brain. Not sure to what extent though.

quote:

Originally posted by Vivid Boy I had a friend that went to a psychiatrist and i got angry at her cause she bought what the doc said and she went on anti-depressants. I knew just by knowing her she wasnt clinically depressed. but whatever she goton the meds and styoped 2 months later cause they werent doing shit. I ended up teaching her a few things and her life did a complete 360. psychiatrists are bs. biochemical and med companies are manufacturers and doctors are their pushers. its big money. the truth is 90% of the time cases can be solved by understanding how ur mind works. but because doc's get huge incentives from these drug companies and theyre always so overbooked and the more ppl they see the more $$ they get, theyd rather just prescribe u the shit, push you out the door, collect their pay and drive home in their mercedes. and thats the failure of our society. right there! we'd rather get paid big money by doing a half assed job and cutting corners. its the american way. Quantity over quality....quantity over quality

Truth... I was put on paxil after afew months I got really depressed, then prozac. Then I said "wait, I don't need thuis shit." Then poped my 1st roll later that week

Its your mind, deal with it you own way.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you tell me. can positive thinking or meditating actually modify how the neural pathways of the brain function? i am well aware of the effects of placebos in the medical field, but to argue we all possess the capacity to alter our biological make-up through the "power of the mind" is unsubstantiated bullshit.

doubtlessly the meditating fella. also, i wouldn't group positive thinking with meditation, especially in regards to changing neural pathways, an action i'm thoroughly convinced can be done via meditation, but not via positive thinking (or at the very most, to a much lower extent via positive thinking).
repeating actions creates new neural pathways, avoiding actions abolishes neural pathways (admittedly the latter takes longer).

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Considering it didn't cost me anything but the co-pay to get them, no, gullibility is not an issue here. Completely serious. The pills are Lexapro. I'm not going to take them.

lol looks like we're in the exact same situation. currently im also on lexapro and the only reason i see my therapist is so he can write out the prescription. he spends maybe about 3-4 minutes with me and tells me the exact same shit he told me the last time, everytime.

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T doubtlessly the meditating fella. also, i wouldn't group positive thinking with meditation, especially in regards to changing neural pathways, an action i'm thoroughly convinced can be done via meditation, but not via positive thinking (or at the very most, to a much lower extent via positive thinking). repeating actions creates new neural pathways, avoiding actions abolishes neural pathways (admittedly the latter takes longer).

The other problem is that (though both are usually present) no-one has a sure-fire way to tell whether someone's depression is mainly due to a physical neurological condition in their brain or just their emo way of dealing with problems - a habit they could be taught to change with some therapy. Though drugs may be helpful in the latter case too, the danger is that the drugs become the way the person deals with life permanently rather than just a tool to teach them to change their behavioural patterns.

I think that overzealous prescription of drugs as a solution to mental health problems, from depression, to ADD/ADHD etc is a real problem these days. I think people should first educate themselves about various forms of psychotherapy before they decide on a course of treatment (it also, hopefully, places them in a position where they can instantly tell whether a professional just wants to pump them or their kids full of pills and collect his payment).

Having said that if you are on the verge of suicide, drugs are a fantastic way to get you to a place where you can at least stop thinking about killing yourself and start considering your treatment options.

Re: Psychiatrists are pushers

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles They're more eager to sell their shit than "real" dealers are.

Yes, and it is more in their interest to get you addicted than to actually make you better. Funny how that correlates with that the drugs they push actually do.

dont drugs just trigger different things to be released in your body anyways? so who says u cant generate and release hormones/shit urself

I really don't understand people who go see psychiatrists and then whine that they gave them drugs. It's their freakin' job. If you don't want to get drugs go see some other kind of therapist.

my mom has vicodins, aderall xr's, weight-loss amphetamine derivatives, and other crazy shit. my mom is also a doctor!!

quote:

Originally posted by Aquarian I really don't understand people who go see psychiatrists and then whine that they gave them drugs. It's their freakin' job. If you don't want to get drugs go see some other kind of therapist.

I was commenting on the non-chalant attitude that some psychiatrists apparently have -- throw drugs at the person and send him on his way -- not at the simple fact that he gave me drugs, which is only to be expected.

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T doubtlessly the meditating fella. also, i wouldn't group positive thinking with meditation, especially in regards to changing neural pathways, an action i'm thoroughly convinced can be done via meditation, but not via positive thinking (or at the very most, to a much lower extent via positive thinking). repeating actions creates new neural pathways, avoiding actions abolishes neural pathways (admittedly the latter takes longer).

doubtlessly? doubtlessly? obviously the word must mean something different in israel. ok then, you go tell someone with bipolar or schizophrenia that all they need to do is meditate to control their illness. seriously psy-t, what a load of horseshit

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN doubtlessly? doubtlessly? obviously the word must mean something different in israel. ok then, you go tell someone with bipolar or schizophrenia that all they need to do is meditate to control their illness. seriously psy-t, what a load of horseshit

i recently saw some show on discovery or national geographic where they brought a buddhist monk from tibet who has spent more than 20 years doing meditation and such to an MRI scan where he was asked to exhibit his control over his emotions regardless of circumstances, by request. the scientists said 'generate happiness' and no matter everything else, he generated what is commonly regarded by the scientists as a 'happy reading' in MRI scans, they asked him to be angry, and right there and then he was angry according to the MRI, so they went through the common emotions they research and he showed absolute control, to less than 5 seconds of notice.

beyond that, i can do the same because i've had my own share of practice, though 1. it takes me quite a bit more time than it does him, and 2. i haven't had an MRI.


as for your hypothetical suggestion, bring over a bipolar man and a schizophrenic man who are both capable of meditation and i'll send you back two healthy men. good luck finding them.

Meditation can also allow you to resist physical pain:



Thich Quang Duc, one of the Vietnamese monks who burned himself, never moved as he burned to death.

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T as for your hypothetical suggestion, bring over a bipolar man and a schizophrenic man who are both capable of meditation and i'll send you back two healthy men. good luck finding them.

thats exactly my point. plus, even if they were capable of such, there is no evidence to suggest they could overcome their diseases any more than meditating can cure AIDS.

your argument requires your monk to have bipolar to be valid

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN thats exactly my point. plus, even if they were capable of such, there is no evidence to suggest they could overcome their diseases any more than meditating can cure AIDS. your argument requires your monk to have bipolar to be valid

eh? i didn't argue for bipolars at any point here. you offered bipolars and schizophrenics in your hypothetical and i nullified that point

we're talking about depression here, and depression can and is being resolved via meditative and introspective techniques on a daily basis around the world. though it seems the trend is to stop that, and just hand people addictive pills instead.

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T eh? i didn't argue for bipolars at any point here. you offered bipolars and schizophrenics in your hypothetical and i nullified that point

how'd you nullify it? by talking about an unrelated monk who had neither condition?

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T we're talking about depression here, and depression can and is being resolved via meditative and introspective techniques on a daily basis around the world. though it seems the trend is to stop that, and just hand people addictive pills instead.

im not denying meditation and non-drug treatment can help. im doubting that those that have a biological cause for their depression are going to be helped much by hugging trees and going to their happy place.

All these drugs, and yet the suicide rate is still above what it was in the 50s in the US.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN im not denying meditation and non-drug treatment can help. im doubting that those that have a biological cause for their depression are going to be helped much by hugging trees and going to their happy place.

It's true.

quote:

Originally posted by jennypie It's true.

eh? whats true? that hugging trees helps or those with biological depressive issues (such as bipolar) are better helped with stabilising medication?

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN how'd you nullify it? by talking about an unrelated monk who had neither condition?

are you being dense on purpose or something? i nullified it by noting how the people from your hypothetical are in an overhwleming most of the cases incapable of using the methods in question, hence they're irrelevant, or in other words, the hypothetical you suggested has been nullified.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN eh? whats true? that hugging trees helps or those with biological depressive issues (such as bipolar) are better helped with stabilising medication?

Sorry...that people with biological disorders are better helped with meds.

i was once in line for movie tickets and someone pushed me from behind and i turned around and was like "hey who the hell do u think u are?"
and he replied "a psychiatrist"

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T are you being dense on purpose or something? i nullified it by noting how the people from your hypothetical are in an overhwleming most of the cases incapable of using the methods in question, hence they're irrelevant, or in other words, the hypothetical you suggested has been nullified.

oooh! touchy! fine, now im on the same page. forgive me, i had a job interview and wasnt paying too much attention

so then, if you accept that people with those extreme psychological disorders are incapable, you must therefore entertain the idea that those with "simple" depression, caused by an actual biological fault, may also be incapable, or at least that the meditation might not be as successful as stabilising medication.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN oooh! touchy! fine, now im on the same page. forgive me, i had a job interview and wasnt paying too much attention so then, if you accept that people with those extreme psychological disorders are incapable, you must therefore entertain the idea that those with "simple" depression, caused by an actual biological fault, may also be incapable, or at least that the meditation might not be as successful as stabilising medication.

i don't see why i must entertain that idea, especially considering no one has even suggested a link exists between depression and meditation capability, not to mention presented a case to support such a link.

however, if you meant to say that people who are incapable of utilizing meditation and introspection due to a bioligical fault (or any other reason) can't reap the benefits of meditation, not only would i agree, i would also note the redundancy of the notion.

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