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-- Everyone is right all of the time.
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Originally posted by Arbiter Ok, there's a couple of things here that you should consider. First, there's a big difference between being actually right and thinking you are right at the time. Also, you might want to clarify what exactly your mean when you say "right" to avoid accidental equivocation. In particular, distinguish between moral "rightness," justifiability (in terms of what criteria?), and accuracy or correctness.

I mean both morally and in accuracy/correctness. What the majority of people think is right.

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Okay, is the person "thinking" they are right at the time or "feeling" they are right at the time? There is a difference. I'm also a little confused with the use of the word "correct" here: correct in what sense? Are these things objectively verifiable or are they correct in some person's subjective opinion?

Both feeling and thinking (you could argue they are the same when it comes to decision making). The person has a desire that they feel they are making the right decision to attain.

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Ok, now you're just sounding naive. Given the evident diversity of the human species, how can we really believe that everyone is "equal?" And even if we could, how would that facilitate making the world a "better" place? Better in what way? As for the "betterment" of society - everyone's going to have different opinions about what is better for society, so even if everyone were making decisions based on it, there still wouldn't be consensus.

We're equal because we're all human, all on planet earth and all at the mercy of each other. Without selfishness there would be consensus.

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Make no mistake, if it weren't for selfishness, none of us would even be here to contemplate such matters. No offense, but the ideal of "everlasting peace and happiness" sounds like something out of a children's book. The desire for nothing but peace is not one that all people share - and even those that desire it would likely not find themselves more fulfilled if they actually found it. As for happiness... it is really not realistic to expect continuous happiness regardless of one's circumstances. No matter how favorable those circumstances might be, they will eventually become the baseline and only things "better" than usual will elicit happiness.

Granted, you can't be happy all the time because you would forget other emotions and become braindead.. but things like hard work and exercise can provide the negative counter-balance.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On Selfishness and Self-interest are two sides of the same coin... the coin that seems to flip at a moment's notice for some people. :/ I see what you mean - if humans worked with another more and less for themselves, it would be much easier to deal with many of the issues in our world right now that are neglected simply due to lack of support. Also, many of the blaring 'popular' issues that people seem to take heart in (war, famine, plague, pestilence?) would be dulled as people began to realize that these struggles are only caused by selfish peoples' preservation. But what would the world become were it not for selfishness and self-interest? In theory, I think that many of the problems people face on a larger scale would fade, but how would the quality of lifestyle be if people could not and would not do things for themselves? Eliminating selfishness is like taking out the ability to have chocolate ice cream - if all you have is vanilla, what does vanilla really taste like without chocolate to compare it to? I know metaphors of duality don't really get us anywhere, but my point is that people's self-interest is a good thing because it helps us survive through the extremes - selfishness is just overindulgence in this creed, and is usually considered bad, sure, but it's absolutely necessary to the human condition because it is what sets us apart from one another in most cases. Who are we if we have no investment in ourselves?

This idea of total unselfishness sounds, on the surface, like people would have to sacrifice loads, lose their souls, become robots. But ultimately science/technology/etc. would advance so much that any compromise or sacrifice made by an individual would soon become insignificant due to the massive benefits gained by everyone.


+++++

I mean, I'm kinda playing devil's advocate here because of course I recognise the arguments you guys are bringing up. I think what I gained from this is quite simple - there will always be enough people who have such strong desires that they will take the destruction of mankind and the planet in order to obtain those desires. Theoretically my idea would work, and I'd like it to but realistically there's not a chance!

Shit, you can see how that could heavily depress some people.

One thing I'd like to add..

I dream like this from time to time, and I no doubt will again. But I reckon it's better than being Nou!

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Originally posted by Synchronicity But I reckon it's better than being Nou!

I think the world would be a much better place if we stopped ridiculing and vilifying the people we do not know or understand.

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On I think the world would be a much better place if we stopped ridiculing and vilifying the people we do not know or understand.

Of course, that was a bit rotten.

I mean the 'world is a piece of shit, hate everything' attitude he had. I genuinely hope he is doing well.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Everyone is right all of the time.

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Originally posted by Ed G Crime is a lie. Selflessness is a lie.

Ed,

I meant to ask you what you meant by this?

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Originally posted by Slylee in other words, every moment has it's own truth.

It's interesting you say that because that's part of what I meant, niggling at the back of my mind but not surfacing!


Anyway, I'm into the double posting and talking to myself now . Time to go.

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Originally posted by Synchronicity niggling

THAT'S RACIST!

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Originally posted by Ygrene I think you were wrong to post this thread.

lol nice one.

its impossible to ask people to live for others. we're all inherently selfish.

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Originally posted by RapidFire its impossible to ask people to live for others. we're all inherently selfish.

We are capable of change though.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Everyone is right all of the time.

Originally posted by Ed G
"Crime is a lie.

Selflessness is a lie."

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Originally posted by Synchronicity Ed, I meant to ask you what you meant by this?

The concept of crime requires that one recognize a consistant and measurable "right" and "wrong". What is criminal ultimately is different for everyone, so meaningless. Right and wrong are concepts that are supposedly used to create some form of justice for a majority. Fat chance!

No one stands up to the test of selflessness. Not one human.

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Originally posted by Ygrene I think you were wrong to post this thread.

Post of the year, no wait, the century, no wait, the millenium...

no...wait wait...

POST OF THE UNIVERSE HISOTRY OFALl TIMES LOLOL!!!

A product is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Synchronicity I mean, I'm kinda playing devil's advocate here because of course I recognise the arguments you guys are bringing up. I think what I gained from this is quite simple - there will always be enough people who have such strong desires that they will take the destruction of mankind and the planet in order to obtain those desires. Theoretically my idea would work, and I'd like it to but realistically there's not a chance!

you might wanna read some utopic/dystopic writing:
Huxley's Brave New World,
Thomas More's Utopia,
Yevgeny Zamyatin's We.

Synchronicity... I'll tell you my own tale of Finches that surpasses anything to do with The Galapagos.


One day, I needed some stuff for my dorm room (I was in residence at York University), so off I went to the nearest mall I could find. This being the Jane and Finch mall. I returned home, a couple of cheap blankets stowed safely away in my steamer's trunk.


The moral of the tale? On the Island COR (a contraction of Coruscant) Ygrene has one of the biggest beaks, and I do believe he's snatched your seed

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Originally posted by Subey ...and I do believe he's snatched your seed

he he

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Originally posted by Subey Synchronicity... I'll tell you my own tale of Finches that surpasses anything to do with The Galapagos. One day, I needed some stuff for my dorm room (I was in residence at York University), so off I went to the nearest mall I could find. This being the Jane and Finch mall. I returned home, a couple of cheap blankets stowed safely away in my steamer's trunk.

Ok so obviously I ignored that bit!

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The moral of the tale? On the Island COR (a contraction of Coruscant) Ygrene has one of the biggest beaks, and I do believe he's snatched your seed

There is no seed, I'm not in competition. With all due respect to Ygrene because he is a funny and witty guy, it was a pretty obvious reply that would have been posted by someone else had he not been here.

Everyone is right all the time, but only from their perspective. I meant that from the start but never clarified it. Unfortunately I then blindly debated the contrary out of stubborness. When you take that into consideration, Ygrenes comment isn't relative.

Stirring.

Re: Everyone is right all of the time.

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Originally posted by Synchronicity Everyone is right all of the time. Every decision a person makes, they make because they think it is right at the time. Even if it goes against their usual morals, or the generally accepted morals of society, they think it is right at the moment they choose to make it. So in order to understand a persons behaviour, you have to understand why the person feels the choices they make are correct at the time they make them. At the moment the decision is made, three factors influence the decision: Past experiences, present situation and foresight. So in order for people to start respecting each other as equals, join together and make the world a better place, people would have to compromise and make decisions based on the betterment of society rather than just themselves. Most religions seem like an obvious candidate for solving this problem, as they encourage acting for the benefit of society/the greater G(o)od rather than (D)evil. Unfortunately, many religions have set ideas dating back thousands of years, which do not accept believers in other religions, or athiests. Of course, it would be wrong to say 'ditch religion', the point is that some religions could be more tolerant of other beliefs. A friend of mine and I were discussing this, and agreed that it all comes down to selfishness.. it's the only obstacle (within our control) in the way of everlasting peace and happiness for everyone.

Agree 100%

I�m actually amazed of the few people who are showing support.

The ideal of having total happiness for everyone is difficult to prove because it hasn�t happened, yet. But stating it is just a �fairy tale� is also unfounded (it makes me sad to see these blinding effects of society on people).

The key to this whole matter is evolution. If we look back centuries ago, we are actually evolving into this ideal of well-being for everyone. Unfortunately we started with the left foot (monarchies, slavery, division of states, etc) and the path to turn the whole situation upside down is going to be really long.

The only way to �prove� this ideal is viable is by looking its effects on minor scales. Companies that apply this kind of policies, or people who constantly act based on the ideal, they are all successful entities. And by success I mean happiness.

Changing someone�s paradigm by just chatting is a difficult work (consensus). That�s why people who already have this ideal incorporated should feel fortunate. That personal culture is a gift. They will certainly see the benefits upon the people that surrounds them, and their happiness state will be guaranteed, as the long path will maintain them constantly evolving.

Synchronicity, what do you study? Just out of curiosity.

Re: Re: Everyone is right all of the time.

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Originally posted by The Master Agree 100% I�m actually amazed of the few people who are showing support. The ideal of having total happiness for everyone is difficult to prove because it hasn�t happened, yet. But stating it is just a �fairy tale� is also unfounded (it makes me sad to see these blinding effects of society on people). The key to this whole matter is evolution. If we look back centuries ago, we are actually evolving into this ideal of well-being for everyone. Unfortunately we started with the left foot (monarchies, slavery, division of states, etc) and the path to turn the whole situation upside down is going to be really long. The only way to �prove� this ideal is viable is by looking its effects on minor scales. Companies that apply this kind of policies, or people who constantly act based on the ideal, they are all successful entities. And by success I mean happiness. Changing someone�s paradigm by just chatting is a difficult work (consensus). That�s why people who already have this ideal incorporated should feel fortunate. That personal culture is a gift. They will certainly see the benefits upon the people that surrounds them, and their happiness state will be guaranteed, as the long path will maintain them constantly evolving. Synchronicity, what do you study? Just out of curiosity.

I study Multimedia Technology at university, I'm in the third year. An unlikely source for a lot of my beliefs is Bruce Lee. I've got a book of his called 'Striking Thoughts' and I think half the reason Bruce Lee was such a good fighter was down to his open-mindedness. My parents are socialists (my mum spoke at labour party conferences etc. with M.P.s, and top socialists like Alan Woods and the late Ted Grant are friends of the family), so I've learned a lot from them. Ted Grant and Alan Woods have dedicated Wikipedia articles if you're interested. But more than anything, I talk with mates a lot about the way the world is.

I think part of the reason a lot of people don't like to agree with the idea of a happy world for everyone (particularly guys) is the cool factor. I think the gay stereotype, the media (in terms of figures like Arnie, Rappers etc.) and historical leaders will play a part in this.

I don't want to go on about religion much, because it's incredibly boring and a catalyst for nonsense.. but I do think religion is one of, if not THE, biggest factors in the slowing down of evolution. Like I said before, and is relevant to Bruce Lee's 'No Styles' attitude, these religions don't allow for progression. For religion to progress, mistakes in the scriptures would need to be admitted to, and changed. That can't happen because you have to believe in the word of god, and that whatever is written in these books, no matter how crazy, is true. Women have to suffer child birth and inferiority to men because a snake told a chick called eve to eat an apple. 'Nuff said.

Most of our generation can't be bothered to fight for equality any more because of the comfortable level we're kept at by the government/capitalists. We have just enough to get by and if your situation and intelligence is strong enough, or you kiss the right asses you can earn a lot of money. It's still not a fair society but people aren't pissed off enough to do anything about it.

I agree that we are evolving to think this way, I wish we would just evolve faster! It has to benefit those in power too though, otherwise we're screwed. That's one of the downfalls of politics IMO, you can't make the world better by trying to crush those in power because, well, they're in power!

There's a book written by Ted Grant and Alan woods called 'Reason In Revolt'. It's hardcore! There's a section called 'The Selfish Gene?' which is relevant to this thread.

http://www.marxist.com/rircontents.htm

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