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-- Jehovah's Witnesses - religious insanity?
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Originally posted by muzzybear Everyone has their own beliefs, Smitty, and I'm sorry that someone was so harsh with you! But quite frankly we're all "sinners" according to the scriptures. We're all in a "sinful" state because of "inherited sin", and "the wages sin pays is death." I'm a "sinner" because I was a fornicator (sex outside of marriage), and a "drunkard" etc. Yep. I can live with it. But I won't take a blood transfusion either.

well that's cool man. You should be able to decide if you personally don't want to have one since you are over 18 and should be able to make those decisions (part of the reason I support euthanasia to a degree).

But the issue here (and the only reason I brought this article to everyone's attention) is that the people involved in this case were infants whose parents were willing to let them die! TWO of their OWN CHILDREN already died. That's the real issue here. Who decides whether a minor who is unaware of the larger issues lives or dies?

In this case, I think most people feel the government made the right call.

Take the Jehova's Witness quiz.
http://www.thebentinel.com/jw-quiz.php

I got "You are 40% Jehovah's Witness!"

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 my opinion only but probably that of many others as well, as can be seen from this thread.

Popular opinion doesn't make something right or true. Do you have rocks in your head? LoL.

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Originally posted by jennypie Popular opinion doesn't make something right or true. Do you have rocks in your head? LoL.

Uh oh. Jenny's on a warpath!

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 well that's cool man. You should be able to decide if you personally don't want to have one since you are over 18 and should be able to make those decisions (part of the reason I support euthanasia to a degree). But the issue here (and the only reason I brought this article to everyone's attention) is that the people involved in this case were infants whose parents were willing to let them die! TWO of their OWN CHILDREN already died. That's the real issue here. Who decides whether a minor who is unaware of the larger issues lives or dies? In this case, I think most people feel the government made the right call.

Those babies were severely premature and not having a blood transfusion wouldn't have likely made a difference to their recovery (see how many sextuplets have died in the past with blood transfusions). Children are under the care of their parents until they are of legal age. It's disturbing to think that you can't protect your children and raise them with your beliefs in this country.

My brother married a non-witness and she has the legal right to implement whatever treatment she wants for her and my brother's kids. Thank goodness there hasn't been any issues yet, but imagine what a can of worms that's gonna be if it comes up in the future!

This all recently came up too, with the 16 year old who fled BC to come to Ontario because she was undergoing chemo and they wanted to force a transfusion on her. Is 16 too young to know what you want to do with your own body?

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Originally posted by jennypie Popular opinion doesn't make something right or true. Do you have rocks in your head? LoL.

lol, no, I have a brain and it works...sometimes. Of course popular opinion doesn't make it true or false. It just adds some perpsective to this debate.

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Originally posted by Abercrombie Take the Jehova's Witness quiz. http://www.thebentinel.com/jw-quiz.php I got "You are 40% Jehovah's Witness!"

I'm 53% ! Hahahahaha!

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 lol, no, I have a brain and it works...sometimes. Of course popular opinion doesn't make it true or false. It just adds some perpsective to this debate.

True enough.



Welp...see ya later!

quote:

Originally posted by Abercrombie Take the Jehova's Witness quiz. http://www.thebentinel.com/jw-quiz.php I got "You are 40% Jehovah's Witness!"

I'm 27%. You're a freak!!!!!!

In any case, it is interesting to discuss the pros/cons/whatever, but I still fail to see how any alternative for a transfusion can be given to a baby. True, there are plasma, saline, and other alternatives, however, these are only viable as a one-time use alternatives, and as a resort if there is not enough donor blood. Stating the Red Cross to be a money making company...well...as relevant as that is, its not really all that much in line with the discussion of the moment. Saline replacement and whatnot would have provided a very dangerous replacement for a transfusion. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that from a strictly 'technical' viewpoint, a transfusion sometimes IS the better way.

Maybe I'm a little too ignorant of JW, but I've spoken to a few, sometimes quite at length, and I just do not agree with a strong belief like that. Then again, are they SO different than other religions to be found today?
I just don't understand some things. For example, I've had it said that as a JW, if your family isn't, contact with them will be discouraged. I don't know why this part stood out. There is a lot of unity there, but a lot of clut-like behaiviours, IMO.

Just a question muzzybear if you don't mind. How do your family and their JW contacts feel about your way of life? I hope I'm not prying, and I don't mean to be offensive. I'm genuinely curious as to the family dynamic..

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Originally posted by zokissima Just a question muzzybear if you don't mind. How do your family and their JW contacts feel about your way of life? I hope I'm not prying, and I don't mean to be offensive. I'm genuinely curious as to the family dynamic..

I, like many people, have no trouble talking about myself or my beliefs! Har har! My Great Aunt always used to tell me that "bad association spoils useful habits" because she didn't like my friend Nancy (who was a Roman Catholic and "loose as a goose" in high school to put it mildly!)

My sister is a non-witness too, and we have little contact with my brother who is a really bad example of a baptized Witness (I probably do a better job of preaching than he does, and I don't go to the Kingdom Hall!).

I'm totally close with my very faithful mother, but she's always throwing in little nuggets of scripture to kind of scare me back to the faith. I hear stories of how my mom's uncle Percy was disfellowshipped 5 times because he stole from the treasury. Too funny! I totally believe in what they teach, but have not had great experiences with some of the Witnesses, so I choose to live my life outside of the faith and have friends who don't judge me and I don't judge them (I guess I'm prepared to "die with my eyes wide open" for lack of a better way to put it). There's been many great 4am chats, and I have a lot of knowledge of the scriptures, so it's always fun to talk amongst ourselves about what makes us tick.

quote:

Originally posted by muzzybear

Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time.
lol at your mom throwing little comments. Sounds like a typical good mom
Did you find that the younger crowd of the JW are a lot more judgemental than the older individuals whom have kids and whatnot?

I'm just curious muzzy...from my experience, pride in your nationality, and more importantly, participation in the political system, is discouraged by the JW faith, no? My friend was never allowed to vote and always complained about my passion for politics, history, etc.

So if you're going to point to the virtues of our "free" society, isn't that already contradicting a solid JW belief? I mean, JW's can't really claim to have legal and political rights when, in theory, they are opposed to the entire system? It's like having your cake and eating it too, or however that expression goes.

anyway, I"m off to class. My first years are waiting for another exciting tutorial on European governments in the interwar period!

quote:

Originally posted by zokissima Did you find that the younger crowd of the JW are a lot more judgemental than the older individuals whom have kids and whatnot?

On the contrary... they younger ones threw parties that made our parties look lame, which really troubled me. It's a scriptural obligation to help one another for healing and spiritual growth and to paraphrase "be greased with oil by the older ones in the congregation" so they can get back on the "right track" so to speak. I was threatened with a "you better not tell on us" so I kind of limped away since I figured it was hypocritical of them to be this way. The older ones in the congregation are the ones I remember for their faith and loving way. There was an old missionary couple in their 80's who spoke urdu and used to hold hands during the meetings. I loved the older ones! I felt rejected more by ones my age.

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Originally posted by jennypie Well said!

+1 to that

Very thought provoking posts Caroline.

P.S. I hope your mom is doing well.

I am still trying to form a good paragraph or 2 togehter....but i will reply soon on the issue...

However...


I don;t have a probelm witn anyones belief. I may not believe the same thing, but what others believe is non of my business.

What i DO have a problem with is when you come to my door and try to preach to me. I really don't care that its part of the religion or whatnot. Its really annoying to me and it pisses me off that my time is being wasted. Everyone can believe what they want, just don't force it on others. I THINK THIS IS STUPID! Yes i am sounding ignorant. TOO BAD! SUCK IT UP!

"Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think" - Schopenhauer

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Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 I'm just curious muzzy...from my experience, pride in your nationality, and more importantly, participation in the political system, is discouraged by the JW faith, no? My friend was never allowed to vote and always complained about my passion for politics, history, etc. So if you're going to point to the virtues of our "free" society, isn't that already contradicting a solid JW belief? I mean, JW's can't really claim to have legal and political rights when, in theory, they are opposed to the entire system? It's like having your cake and eating it too, or however that expression goes. anyway, I"m off to class. My first years are waiting for another exciting tutorial on European governments in the interwar period!

As I say, I don't vote (as it would nullify my vote in "God's kingdom") and I don't complain about who's in power. I think I was pointing out a concern for all of you who wish to practice freedom of religion that you've all fought so hard for. My Uncle was imprisoned for not fighting during WWII as he would not take up arms against another man. We pay "Ceaser's things to Ceaser and God's things to God." I pay my taxes, don't kill people, and respect authority. And am entitled to proper representation if I should go to court because I pay my taxes and don't disrespect the system.

There is a story about two kids brought into a principal's office (one a witness and one a non-witness) and both were asked to spit on the flag. The non-witness kid did as he was told, but the witness kid didn't because it was disrespectful to the "higher authority". Like how Shadrack, Meshack and Abednego didn't bow down or worship the king. We don't sing the anthem, but respect the laws of the country. How's that for an answer? (man, it's been a long time since I've posted on TA and GLTV gave me an old computer of hers and here I am posting all afternoon! Hahahaha!)

quote:

Originally posted by *~LiSa-LoO~* +1 to that Very thought provoking posts Caroline. P.S. I hope your mom is doing well.

Thanks, Lisa Loo! She's finishing her radiation next week and is doing well! GLTV and I are both doing the 60k Breast Cancer Walk again this year, so I hope you make it out to a fundraiser again! Good times, good times! Not sure if you know, but I'm having a wee one in a few weeks, so I'll have to get a sitter to get out to some of them! They'll be at Lolita's Lust again! :-)

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Originally posted by Cro_Addict What i DO have a problem with is when you come to my door and try to preach to me. I really don't care that its part of the religion or whatnot. Its really annoying to me and it pisses me off that my time is being wasted. Everyone can believe what they want, just don't force it on others. I THINK THIS IS STUPID! Yes i am sounding ignorant. TOO BAD! SUCK IT UP!

I haven't been door to door in over 10 years. But unfortunately it's part of the mandate to preach. The right to preach was only granted in Quebec in the 80's! Again, part of freedom to practice your religion! The mormons do it too. Matthew 24:14 says "and the good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth and then the end will come." Jesus preached door to door as well as performed sermons too. Just be polite and tell them you're not interested. For lack of a better way to put it, I'm sure if you felt passionately that you had a cure for cancer you'd go banging on people's doors to tell them too! Love your neighbour! :-)

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Originally posted by minimax "Religion is the masterpiece of the art of animal training, for it trains people as to how they shall think" - Schopenhauer

yes I would say I concur with that broad line of thinking. I am not religious at all and am glad my dad resisted my mom's urging to have me sent to Sunday school, attend church, etc, etc. Then I discovered Darwin at age 14.....

But Muzzy, thanks for the clarification. I might not agree (at all) but everyone has a right to their beliefs in our society. It's just that I found it funny my friend's mom got into a minor car accident when I was in grade 10 and she went on and on about "my (her) rights, my right to this, my right to that" but at the same time told her kids that politics was evil, etc. Maybe she's a bad example though.

Another thing too actually. She actively encouraged her kids not to try in school because Armageddon was "imminent", and any academic inspiration they might have had was sapped. Again, she's a bad example.

quote:

Originally posted by muzzybear Thanks, Lisa Loo! She's finishing her radiation next week and is doing well! GLTV and I are both doing the 60k Breast Cancer Walk again this year, so I hope you make it out to a fundraiser again! Good times, good times! Not sure if you know, but I'm having a wee one in a few weeks, so I'll have to get a sitter to get out to some of them! They'll be at Lolita's Lust again! :-)

Good to hear. It really makes me smile to know how dedicated you are to the cause.

Keep me posted on when your fundraisers are and I'll try my best to come out again. It's harder for me to come out - even if only for a few hours - since I live in Windsor. But I'll do my best

quote:

Originally posted by muzzybear I haven't been door to door in over 10 years. But unfortunately it's part of the mandate to preach. The right to preach was only granted in Quebec in the 80's! Again, part of freedom to practice your religion! The mormons do it too. Matthew 24:14 says "and the good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth and then the end will come." Jesus preached door to door as well as performed sermons too. Just be polite and tell them you're not interested. For lack of a better way to put it, I'm sure if you felt passionately that you had a cure for cancer you'd go banging on people's doors to tell them too! Love your neighbor! :-)

I understand the passion, but I don't like people coming to my door if I don't want them there.

I try to be polite when they come. I pretty much always say "Thank you, but I worship Satan in my basement". This usually leads to an awkward silence then they just turn around and leave.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 But Muzzy, thanks for the clarification. I might not agree (at all) but everyone has a right to their beliefs in our society. It's just that I found it funny my friend's mom got into a minor car accident when I was in grade 10 and she went on and on about "my (her) rights, my right to this, my right to that" but at the same time told her kids that politics was evil, etc. Maybe she's a bad example though. Another thing too actually. She actively encouraged her kids not to try in school because Armageddon was "imminent", and any academic inspiration they might have had was sapped. Again, she's a bad example.

Good chats, my friend! I was encouraged to attend university but dropped out at the beginning of my third year. We can find bad examples everywhere! My dad used to tell me that I didn't celebrate christmas because having a christmas tree was a fire hazard and would burn the house down! Sheesh! It wasn't until I stayed with Witness family in England when I was 18 and was shown scripturally why I didn't celebrate christmas and many trips to the British Museum that I apprecaited how I had been raised.

Just a quip here.

Science is not against religion, but are compatible with each other.

Ah well. God has a lot to answer if I ever get to heaven

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Originally posted by *~LiSa-LoO~* Good to hear. It really makes me smile to know how dedicated you are to the cause. Keep me posted on when your fundraisers are and I'll try my best to come out again. It's harder for me to come out - even if only for a few hours - since I live in Windsor. But I'll do my best

I'll be going to Windsor to do baby pics in a few months. I was there three weeks ago for preggo pics - check out my "myspace" page
Muzzybear's myspace page

Next time I'll get in touch. I can now that I've got this damn contraption at home!!!

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