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-- What was the last great Russian leader since 1917?
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No such sources? Pffft. You're wrong. Americans, Churchill even Soviet intelligence sources knew. I own two World War II history books that state the same. Alll referenced. You're too Soviet. I know there are so-called "confirmed" reports to contradict this (just like with almost everything, all you need is someone's disagreement and it becomes a fact), but even Russian GRU service in their famous agents brochure I saw on Russian TV gave a brief story about the Soviet spy's biography (forgot the name), detailing how in December 1940 he told Stalin that Hitler was going to attack.

Oh never mind, I misread your argument. I thought you were going to spin me the Suvorov yarn again about the Soviets planning to attack Germany first.

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And I dont believe your story that only 2 million people died in Soviet concentration camps. In suburbs of Moscow few years back they digged up a former government land on which it is estimated that 20,000 people were shot dead alone. Even Russian government admitted this. Even 2 million is a huge number. It was a terrible era. Stalin killed left and right, and it is almost impossible to verify exactly how many people he killed, because there was not many people to write down the numbers and live to telll about it.

Christ, just google it. I didn't remember the exact number but I knew it was around 1-2 million people that perished in Gulags. Wikipedia said 2 million so I went with a larger number. Even so, the number is at least twice as small as Hitler's if not 3 if we factor in gypsies, homosexuals, communists, and others that died in Nazi camps.

Furthermore, your statement directly compared Soviet concentration camps to Nazi camps, not mass executions outside of camps. But trust me, you wouldnt want to compare those either. The four Einsatzkommando groups butchered far more people in the field on Eastern Front than the NKVD ever could.

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Stop defending the evil communist regime!

I am merely pointing out your incorrect "facts" and the flaws in your arguments. I'm sorry if that constitutes "defending" the "evil" Soviet regime in your eyes. At least I dont bend the facts and misquote numbers to bolster my arguments.

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Originally posted by Aquadyne Christ, just google it. I didn't remember the exact number but I knew it was around 1-2 million people that perished in Gulags. Wikipedia said 2 million so I went with a larger number. Even so, the number is at least twice as small as Hitler's if not 3 if we factor in gypsies, homosexuals, communists, and others that died in Nazi camps. Furthermore, your statement directly compared Soviet concentration camps to Nazi camps, not mass executions outside of camps. But trust me, you wouldnt want to compare those either. The four Einsatzkommando groups butchered far more people in the field on Eastern Front than the NKVD ever could. I am merely pointing out your incorrect "facts" and the flaws in your arguments. I'm sorry if that constitutes "defending" the "evil" Soviet regime in your eyes. At least I dont bend the facts and misquote numbers to bolster my arguments.

There is no solid evidence out there from either side to know exactly how many people died from communist crimes. Stalin and his successors hid it very well, and only the bones speak for themselves. Only G-d knows how many undiscovered mass graves are there across the former Soviet Union. Just like its hard to find Stalin's signature ordering the mass murder of these people, though we know he ordered it for others to carry out.

Was there international inspectors of sorts to visit the sites, count the people, check out the mass murder sites? You think Stalin would go around bragging about how many people he killed? What we know of World War II deaths and Hitler's crimes is because both Alllies and Soviets were happy to expose the crimes of Nazis. Especially the Soviets wanted to portray themselves as good and make Nazis look extremely evil. The logic is very simple.

The low estimate of 2 million is far from truth. Members of my great-grandparents family were seized in the middle of the night and never seen again. We dont know where their bones lie. THEIR NAMES NEVER APPPEARED ON ANY CONCENTRATION CAMPS LISTS. So there you go. There's at least 5 people who are "missing". Only 2 people have survived from my extended Cossack family from communist purges and they were forced to leave their native Kuban lands, roots, and move elsewhere.

2 million? More than that died in Stalin's orchestrated famines ALONE.

When you throw in the gulag system, the number of deaths easily exceeds 10 million, and is more likely 2-3X that number.

Here is some recommended reading for you (Aquadyne):

#1.

#2.

#3.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt But he was a lefty so all is forgiven by many. Viva la revolution! As Stalin often said, "Workers of the world...DIE...err...UNITE!"

LOL, I can actually picture Stalin saying that .

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There is no solid evidence out there from either side to know exactly how many people died from communist crimes. Stalin and his successors hid it very well, and only the bones speak for themselves. Only G-d knows how many undiscovered mass graves are there across the former Soviet Union. Just like its hard to find Stalin's signature ordering the mass murder of these people, though we know he ordered it for others to carry out.

From Wikipedia
The total deaths shown by the declassified archives in the GULAG from 1931 to 1953 amount to about 1 million in "corrective labor camps." Another archival document contains the number of roughly 1.6 million deaths in both "corrective labor camps" and "corrective labor colonies" during the years 1930-1956 (figures for colonies are included from 1935 onwards). These figures include deaths of political and common prisoners, but they do not include executions of camp inmates that occurred during various waves of terror. The majority of these deaths occurred during World War II when conditions in the USSR deteriorated due to the war with Germany. After the war, the death rate for prisoners dropped sharply. [2]

There's plenty of archival evidence to estimate how many have died in the Gulags.

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Was there international inspectors of sorts to visit the sites, count the people, check out the mass murder sites? You think Stalin would go around bragging about how many people he killed? What we know of World War II deaths and Hitler's crimes is because both Alllies and Soviets were happy to expose the crimes of Nazis. Especially the Soviets wanted to portray themselves as good and make Nazis look extremely evil. The logic is very simple.

Oh, were there inspectors for Nazi camps? Did Hitler go bragging about how many he had killed? The information that constituted the bulk of evidence for the formation of Holocaust estimates was Nazi documents. Much like the formulation of Gulag death estimates was constituted by declassified Soviet archival documents.

Yes, the logic is indeed quite simple. You should utilize and stop applying a double standard to both sides.

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The low estimate of 2 million is far from truth. Members of my great-grandparents family were seized in the middle of the night and never seen again. We dont know where their bones lie. THEIR NAMES NEVER APPPEARED ON ANY CONCENTRATION CAMPS LISTS. So there you go. There's at least 5 people who are "missing". Only 2 people have survived from my extended Cossack family from communist purges and they were forced to leave their native Kuban lands, roots, and move elsewhere.

I'll let you in on a little secret. In debate, anecdotal evidence is worthless unless you are trying to emotionally sway the audience or your opponent. You will be dissapointed to hear that I don't feel an iota of pity for your family, regardless of how many letters you capitalize to emphasize it.

By the way, if you don't think that was an unjust fate for your family - imagine how Stalin felt when he realized that his people were collaborating with the Nazis. But of course you know better than I do that Cossacks fought for the Nazis.

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Originally posted by Aquadyne I'll let you in on a little secret. In debate, anecdotal evidence is worthless unless you are trying to emotionally sway the audience or your opponent. You will be dissapointed to hear that I don't feel an iota of pity for your family, regardless of how many letters you capitalize to emphasize it. MY GREAT-GRANDPARENTS FOUGHT AGAINST NAZIS, MY GREAT-GRANDFATHER DIED IN THE BATTLE OF NOVORISSIYSK. By the way, if you don't think that was an unjust fate for your family - imagine how Stalin felt when he realized that his people were collaborating with the Nazis. But of course you know better than I do that Cossacks fought for the Nazis.

I get it. You are just trying to look cool here, but its not going to work this time. I dont have the stamped documents approved by Soviet government saying my great-grandfather and his family disapppeared.

Stalin had no proof. He was a complete lunatic, and didnt even trust doctors. He orchestrated enoough trials that were obviously backed by no evidence - thats why Krushchev denounced Stalin afterwards. So there you go. No point in arguing you. I know for sure that the deaths from concentration camps, ethnic removals, famines caused by collectivization, communist party show-trials, great purge, and other murders amount to at least 20 million deaths of innocent people. Dont you remember the deportations of Crimean Tatars and Chechens, the ENTIRE populations? AND YOU THINK the whole population supported Germans??? ALL ARE GUILTY? Man, you are starting to get on my nerves. Plus the massacres of Abkhazian, Ossetian, Georgian, Ukrainian peoples, and as well as Stalin's campaigns at scorched-earth elimination of peasant unrest in Orenburg, Orel regions where many people died. The list of communist crimes is endless. There's no way by any means he was a great leader.

Look at Russia today - still partly Stalinist, many people like ones on here are who voted for Stalin not shy to declare that Stalin was the best leader. Yet at the same time they have dumb double-standards at criticizing "lack of democracy" in Russia today. Thats fucked up. The ones who survived the purges coontinued on with the mentality of Stalin. And much of the communists today in Russia miss Stalin.

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Originally posted by Aquadyne By the way, if you don't think that was an unjust fate for your family - imagine how Stalin felt when he realized that his people were collaborating with the Nazis. But of course you know better than I do that Cossacks fought for the Nazis.

People like you are real scum, you have offended me with that statement. My great-grandfather died in the Battle of Novorossiysk fighting AGAINST the fascists.

Wikipedia:


Kuban Cossacks on Victory Parade, Red Square, June 24 1945

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:KubanCossacks2.jpg

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Cossacks in World War II When the war broke out the Cossacks found themselves on both sides of the conflict. Most fought for the Soviet Union; however, some chose to settle old scores by collaborating with the Germans, especially after the Soviet Union's initial series of defeats, including the loss of much of the army of Ivan Kononov, a former Soviet major who defected to the Germans on the first day of war with some of his 436th regiment, and served around the German-occupied city of Mogilev, guarding lines of communications against Soviet partisans. In the summer of 1942 the German armies entered territories inhabited by the Cossacks. There in the open steppe resistance was futile, but nevertheless many, despite their hatred of Communism, refused to collaborate with the invaders of their country. Whilst collaboration was inevitable, most of the leaders were former Tsarist officers who wanted to avenge their defeat by the Communists. On some occasions relatives separated by the Russian Civil War met each other again on different sides of the conflict and killed ruthlessly. During the Battle of Stalingrad Cossacks were able to fully justify their reincarnation in 1936. Attacks, some led by the legendary Semyon Budenny, were able to keep the Germans from entering the Caucausus, where particularly the Terek and the Kuban Cossacks were able to prevent the Germans from taking the mountains. Failing to overcome the Cossacks by their useless propaganda about an independent Cossack state, the Germans turned their attention to the indigenous mountain dwellers of the Caucasus. This violent ethnic instability was ended only when the Soviet Union deported entire populations of Karachevs, Balkars, Ingush and Chechens and the Cossacks were once again able to live in their native land. From 1943 the Cossacks were kept mostly in the southern part of the front, where their use in reconnaissance and logistics proved invaluable. Many went on through Romania and into the Balkans during the final stages of the war. For the collaborators their options were thin. It should be pointed out that most of the collaborators, who some say numbered over 250,000 (although more realistic current figures claim the true number was not even a third of that) were the Don Cossacks, who, formerly the largest and strongest host, suffered the worst under Soviet collectivization policies. Kuban and Terek Cossacks, on the other hand, fought almost exclusively for the Red Army, and even in most desperate situations their heroism was evident. Being the largest Red Army Cossack host, the Kuban Cossacks in 1945 triumphantly marched on Red Square in the famous Victory Parade. Many of the collaborators fled the Soviet advance (often chased by Soviet Cossacks) but under Soviet-Allied agreements thousands of them were handed back to the USSR. Surprisingly, following the death of Stalin, large numbers of the repatriated were allowed to return to their native lands, under a promise of secrecy. Only after 1991, with the collapse of the Communist regime in the USSR, could they openly mourn the lost members of their communities.

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2 million? More than that died in Stalin's orchestrated famines ALONE. When you throw in the gulag system, the number of deaths easily exceeds 10 million, and is more likely 2-3X that number. Here is some recommended reading for you (Aquadyne):

The argument was about German vs. Soviet concentration camps, not the Ukrainian famine. Reading comprehension is a good thing, get with the program. Furthermore, it is still debated whether the Ukrainian famines were intentional or unintentional.

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I get it. You are just trying to look cool here, but its not going to work this time. I dont have the stamped documents approved by Soviet government saying my great-grandfather and his family disapppeared.

I'm not even sure what the purpose of this is. I'm just telling you that you can stop bawling your eyes out in front of me. Your family and their problems are meaningless to me, so you can stop bringing them up.

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Stalin had no proof. He was a complete lunatic, and didnt even trust doctors. He orchestrated enoough trials that were obviously backed by no evidence - thats why Krushchev denounced Stalin afterwards. So there you go. No point in arguing you. I know for sure that the deaths from concentration camps, ethnic removals, famines caused by collectivization, communist party show-trials, great purge, and other murders amount to at least 20 million deaths of innocent people. Dont you remember the deportations of Crimean Tatars and Chechens, the ENTIRE populations? AND YOU THINK the whole population supported Germans??? ALL ARE GUILTY? Man, you are starting to get on my nerves. Plus the massacres of Abkhazian, Ossetian, Georgian, Ukrainian peoples, and as well as Stalin's campaigns at scorched-earth elimination of peasant unrest in Orenburg, Orel regions where many people died. The list of communist crimes is endless. There's no way by any means he was a great leader.

I dont argue that. Your original claim compared Stalin to Hitler and then compared their respective body counts in their respective concentration camp systems. You lied about the number and I called you on it. Now you're changing the scope of the argument in order to backpedal and starting to include collectivization, famine, ethnic removals and a partridge in a pear tree into the mix in order to inflate the number as much as possible.

So I don't really see what you are trying to argue here. That your people were innocent? They fought with the White Army against the Red Army in the Civil War and then some of them collaborated with Nazis. I don't know why you thought that someone like Stalin would give you a free pass for betraying his country twice, obviously your people were a volatile and an unpredicatble, as well as dangerous element.

What is exactly your definition of a great leader?

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People like you are real scum, you have offended me with that statement. My great-grandfather died in the Battle of Novorossiysk fighting AGAINST the fascists. Wikipedia:

Oh Jesus, again with the fucking Novorossiysk. You can get over now over that pissant battle by now. You have my permission.

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Russian Liberation Army (Russian: Russkaya Osvoboditel'naya Armiya Русская Освободительная Армия, abbreviated in Cyrillic as POA, in Latin as ROA, also known as the Vlasov army) was a group of volunteer Russian forces allied with Nazi Germany during World War II. The ROA was organized by former Red Army general Andrey Vlasov, who tried to unite all Russians in opposing the regime of Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin. Amidst the volunteers were Soviet prisoners of war, eastern workers (Ostarbeiter), and Russian White emigr�s (some of whom were veterans of the anticommunist White Army during the Russian Civil War). On 14 November 1944 it was officially renamed the Armed Forces of the Committee for the Liberation of the Russian Peoples (VS-KONR).

More Here

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In 1942, Novorossiysk was occupied by the Wehrmacht, but a small unit of Soviet sailors defended one part of the town for 225 days, until it was liberated by the Red Army on September 16, 1943. Heroic defense by the Soviet sailors retained possession of the city's bay, which prevented the Germans from using the port for supply shipments. Novorossiysk was awarded the title Hero City in 1973.

Was your grandfather a sailor or red army soldier?

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Originally posted by Aquadyne The argument was about German vs. Soviet concentration camps, not the Ukrainian famine. Reading comprehension is a good thing, get with the program. Furthermore, it is still debated whether the Ukrainian famines were intentional or unintentional. I'm not even sure what the purpose of this is. I'm just telling you that you can stop bawling your eyes out in front of me. Your family and their problems are meaningless to me, so you can stop bringing them up. I dont argue that. Your original claim compared Stalin to Hitler and then compared their respective body counts in their respective concentration camp systems. You lied about the number and I called you on it. Now you're changing the scope of the argument in order to backpedal and starting to include collectivization, famine, ethnic removals and a partridge in a pear tree into the mix in order to inflate the number as much as possible. So I don't really see what you are trying to argue here. That your people were innocent? They fought with the White Army against the Red Army in the Civil War and then some of them collaborated with Nazis. I don't know why you thought that someone like Stalin would give you a free pass for betraying his country twice, obviously your people were a volatile and an unpredicatble, as well as dangerous element. What is exactly your definition of a great leader? Oh Jesus, again with the fucking Novorossiysk. You can get over now over that pissant battle by now. You have my permission.

No offense, but you've wasted your life with obtaining your dimploma in WW2-related issues. You were fed some information from sources that dont know themselves about the actual extent of the terror. I said I BELIEVE 20 million people died. You say 2 million. Those 2 million are hard evidence. Communists hid their crimes when they could, the number is greater. I know because my family members were not included in the purges (the "official" documents). Why? Because often times communists would NOT do paperwork on every seized person suspected of being anti-communist. They would be rounded up, driven away, blidnfolded, shot and buried somewhere far away. Easy as that. No papertrail, no proper trial, no evidence. I repeat, my family never found out what happened to our relatives, just like to many other Soviet citizens. The ones in the camps were mainly political, religious prisoners to be made examples of. There was anywhere up to a thousand concentration camps all over the country. Some of them were later converted to civilian uses.

Seriously, stop denying. The truth is, noone knows exactly how many people perished but I swear its much greater than 2 million. 2 million is a slap in the face to the millions of citizens who suffered under Stalin, and communism in particular. Plus those 2 million (the LEAST confirmed number) is only a SMALL portion of all the communist crimes against innocent people.

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More Here

I'm quite familiar with Vlasov's army. Whoever NKVD could get their hands on that participated in it was executed. Hiwis were executed. Russian POWs were executed as well.

What's your point? That Russians betrayed their country too? Sure, I don't argue that. Subsequently they received the same punishment as the Cossacks did.

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Was your grandfather a sailor or red army soldier?

Red Army soldier.

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No offense, but you've wasted your life with obtaining your dimploma in WW2-related issues. You were fed some information from sources that dont know themselves about the actual extent of the terror. I said I BELIEVE 20 million people died. You say 2 million. Those 2 million are hard evidence. Communists hid their crimes when they could, the number is greater. I know because my family members were not included in the purges (the "official" documents). Why? Because often times communists would NOT do paperwork on every seized person suspected of being anti-communist. They would be rounded up, driven away, blidnfolded, shot and buried somewhere far away. Easy as that. No papertrail. I repeat, my family never found out what happened to our relatives, just like to many other Soviet citizens. The ones in the camps were mainly political, religious prisoners to be made examples of. There was anywhere up to a thousand concentration camps all over the country. Some of them were later converted to civilian uses.

No, you said that more people perished in Stalin's camps than in Hitler's camps (crucial point) and I called you on it pointing out that about 2 million died in Stalin's camps, whereas at least 5 million if not 6 died in Hitler's camps.

Then you realized that you fucked up and started bringing in collectivization, famine, ethnic displacement to inflate the number of deaths that you wanted to attribute to Stalin.

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I repeat, my family never found out what happened to our relatives, just like to many other Soviet citizens.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

So let's recap what we have here. You posted a topic, was offended when Stalin started winning by 50% and started arguing against it using inflated facts and false arguments and comparisons of Hitler to Stalin (god knows why).

I corrected you, pointed out your errors and showed to you that Hitler was in fact much worse thasn Stalin if you really wanted to make that comparison. Then you realized that you screwed, you forgot to factor in famine, collectivization and ethnic displacement in order to inflate the total amount of death that you can attribute to Stalin and that's fine. Inflate that number all you want.

The fact remains that Stalin transformed an 18th century agrarian society into a 20th century world power in a span of 20 years, defeated a foe that was the greatest enemy that Russia has ever faced, a foe that was not only contend to subjugate the Russians as the Teutons or the Mongols might have been content with in times past - but a foe who wanted nothing short of exterminating the Russian people. Finally Stalin placed Russia on a global pedestal and made it one of the 2 major superpowers in the world with the consequences that reverberate into the 21st century as evident by Russia being one of the few states possessing nuclear weapons and retaining 1 of the 5 UNSC permanent seats out of 198 countries that could have been instead.

The price paid by your traitorous brethren was a small one to elevate a country and a people to ther level of prestige that it currently enjoys. And if it wasn't for Stalin, Russia would be just about as relevant in 2007 as some backwater cossack republic in bumfuck, Asia.

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Originally posted by Aquadyne I'm quite familiar with Vlasov's army. Whoever NKVD could get their hands on that participated in it was executed. Hiwis were executed. Russian POWs were executed as well. What's your point? That Russians betrayed their country too? Sure, I don't argue that. Subsequently they received the same punishment as the Cossacks did. Red Army soldier. No, you said that more people perished in Stalin's camps than in Hitler's camps (crucial point) and I called you on it pointing out that about 2 million died in Stalin's camps, whereas at least 5 million if not 6 died in Hitler's camps. Then you realized that you fucked up and started bringing in collectivization, famine, ethnic displacement to inflate the number of deaths that you wanted to attribute to Stalin. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. So let's recap what we have here. You posted a topic, was offended when Stalin started winning by 50% and started arguing against it using inflated facts and false arguments and comparisons of Hitler to Stalin (god knows why). I corrected you, pointed out your errors and showed to you that Hitler was in fact much worse thasn Stalin if you really wanted to make that comparison. Then you realized that you screwed, you forgot to factor in famine, collectivization and ethnic displacement in order to inflate the total amount of death that you can attribute to Stalin and that's fine. Inflate that number all you want. The fact remains that Stalin transformed an 18th century agrarian society into a 20th century world power in a span of 20 years, defeated a foe that was the greatest enemy that Russia has ever faced, a foe that was not only contend to subjugate the Russians as the Teutons or the Mongols might have been content with in times past - but a foe who wanted nothing short of exterminating the Russian people. Finally Stalin placed Russia on a global pedestal and made it one of the 2 major superpowers in the world with the consequences that reverberate into the 21st century as evident by Russia being one of the few states possessing nuclear weapons and retaining 1 of the 5 UNSC permanent seats out of 198 countries that could have been instead. The price paid by your traitorous brethren was a small one to elevate a country and a people to ther level of prestige that it currently enjoys. And if it wasn't for Stalin, Russia would be just about as relevant in 2007 as some backwater cossack republic in bumfuck, Asia.

I dont dispute that less people died in Stalin's camps than in Hitler's anymore. I dispute the number of people who perished in ALL STALIN'S PURGES, NOT JUST CONCENTRATION CAMPS. And many more died without the papertrail. Stalin was still evil. He hurt and altered the country in such a way, that ethnic minorities are still scarred today, 50 years from the events. Stalin was the fuck up because of whom Russia has so many problems. His dumb collectivization methods eventually ruined the Soviet economy, and Soviet Union collapsed in a pile of smoke. And all the lies emerged ;-)

HHAHAHAHA, HIGH LEVELS OF PRESTIGE MY ASS Who gives a shit about prestige when half of your family is fucking dead??? Fuck prestige. I'd rather have my family. And so would you.

HAHAHA, placed on global pedestal BECAUSE OF SLAVE LABOUR, FORCED INDUSTRIALIZATION that cost millions of people their lives. Yay, what a great achievement, build on people's blood.

You just admire the communists too much.

These people who opposed the communists werent traitors. THey were fighting against the dictatorship and oppression they thought was hurtful to their way of life, their culture, religion. These people were right for not just sitting there and watching while communists butcher people, detroy churches, history, family connections, instilling feat into people, forcing famine, etc. etc. etc.

Man oh man, this forum is filled with idiots. There are too few bright minded people here. All people who admire dictators like Stalin are insane. Anyone who oppressed his people so much would have been able to achieve super-human developments torturing people like that. Monsterous.

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Originally posted by Aquadyne I'm quite familiar with Vlasov's army. Whoever NKVD could get their hands on that participated in it was executed. Hiwis were executed. Russian POWs were executed as well. What's your point? That Russians betrayed their country too? Sure, I don't argue that. Subsequently they received the same punishment as the Cossacks did. Red Army soldier.

So now both you and magnetonium have relatives who died in russia in world war II?

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Originally posted by Krypton So now both you and magnetonium have relatives who died in russia in world war II?

Russia suffered terribly since the onset of the communists. There was not a single family (except the highest eshelons of elite) which didnt lose a family member or a close relative to the communist crimes, world war 2. Millions of innocent civilians were murdered, and most intellectual fled the country. And World War II was a blunder of its own. Then there were the collectivization deaths, ethnic cleansing, trials, gulags, nkvd murders, great purges, massive resettlements of people, lies, economic blunders, destruction of historic monuments, oppression of freedoms and rights, lack of independent unbiased judicial system, etc. etc. = a TOTAL DICKTATORSHIP.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Russia suffered terribly since the onset of the communists. There was not a single family (except the highest eshelons of elite) which didnt lose a family member or a close relative to the communist crimes, world war 2. Millions of innocent civilians were murdered, and most intellectual fled the country. And World War II was a blunder of its own. Then there were the collectivization deaths, ethnic cleansing, trials, gulags, nkvd murders, great purges, massive resettlements of people, lies, economic blunders, destruction of historic monuments, oppression of freedoms and rights, lack of independent unbiased judicial system, etc. etc. = a TOTAL DICKTATORSHIP.

Now you want to save Russia from the communists. You know, you sure are sounding like a nazis. Are you a nazis? Because I heard St. Petersburg is now the capital for neo-nazis. You should feel at home there little nazis boy.

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Originally posted by metalgearsolid Now you want to save Russia from the communists. You know, you sure are sounding like a nazis. Are you a nazis? Because I heard St. Petersburg is now the capital for neo-nazis. You should feel at home there little nazis boy.

You were the one who voted for Stalin - and he wasnt much different from Hitler. No, I hated both nazis/fascists and communists/socialists.

who the hell is voting for stalin?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN who the hell is voting for stalin?

The 'kewl kidz' that think mass murder is funny I guess.

Gorbachev. how can you not like "Glasnost"?

...it just rolls off the tongue.

Stalin was a Georgian, but that's besides the point

He was a great leader in the context of leading his country through the 30's and into WWII. After that, his harsh rule didn't have any place, nor need.

My own personal choice would be Gorbachev. He realized what trouble the country was in, and how continuing along the existing path of passive-aggressive confrontation with the west was ultimately counter-productive. It's a shame that Yeltsin seized power when he did and Gorbachev didn't really get the chance to manage the post-cold-war transistion to a greater extent.

Putin is an evil genius. He scares the fuck out of me, yet I find him to be a very intriguing character.

Gorbachev was a weak leader. He was unable to succeed in his reforms - I remember waiting in long lines for food rations - and he was a factor to blame for the eventual fall of Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was over when Gorbachev abdicated. And the last time Russian leader abdicated, another empire collapsed - the Russian Empire when Nicholas II abdicated. Yay, history repeated itself. And the rest is miserable history ...

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Gorbachev was a weak leader. He was unable to succeed in his reforms - I remember waiting in long lines for food rations

where do you think you would be if the CP was still in power?

it was his reforms that had the most influence in what we know today. what i think is so revolutionary for him was that he was the CP and thus led to it's demise. am i talking out of my ass?

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and he was a factor to blame for the eventual fall of Soviet Union.

thats why he should be revered IMO

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Originally posted by Q5echo where do you think you would be if the CP was still in power? it was his reforms that had the most influence in what we know today. what i think is so revolutionary for him was that he was the CP and thus led to it's demise. am i talking out of my ass? thats why he should be revered IMO

Gorbachev wanted to transition to democracy in 5 years. He rushed it too fast, and he lost control over the communist hardliners within the Party. The economic sectors and industry was unable to match up with changes in planning, production and distribution. As a result, there was massive mismanagement of production. At the same time Gorbachev ran the unpopular Afghan war that sapped a lot of money. He basically ran the Soviet economy into the ground. By the time Yeltsin came around and put the final nail in the coffin of Soviet Union's existence, the mass runoff of intelectuals, capital and everything else with that went out of the window. There's a reason why they called it a Russian "brain drain" of early 1990s, when a large number of scientists and intellectuals moved abroad. Over 250 billion in capital, not including military equipment and technology also disappeared. Many former Soviet military chose to either join mafia or move their expertise abroad, and conflicts around the world.

I'm not really on anyone's side there but this is really begining to sound alot like a major Russian apologist thread.

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