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-- Future of mixing Software is bleak!
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Re: Re: Future of mixing Software is bleak!

quote:

Originally posted by skip i'm commenting mostly on the bold section. so now djs would have to lug around their own TTs everywhere instead of records/cds/laptop+serato box? they'd have to plug their own TTs with hdds to the mixers in the clubs?! sounds like a fucking stupid idea if you ask me. how on earth did you come up with something like that?

here's why: the only reason why you have to use a program like Final Scratch is because it ONLY exists on a computer right now. the TT---cable----computer-----Final Scratch chain is an example of a system in it's first generation. all someone has to do is develop a TT that has it's own processor/media storage and you won't need to hook all that other crap to it.

if you are a die-hard Final Scratch user, i bet you would JUMP at the chance to break the chain to your computer & access everything on the TT's processor.

so they only thing u carry around is your poeckt-sized hard drive to plug in...

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Originally posted by TwistedDUO True that. Does it really matter to the dancers what median you use?

yes it does matter because this is the "DJ Booth" forum - not "Dancers" forum

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Z yes it does matter because this is the "DJ Booth" forum - not "Dancers" forum

You took that out of context, but it's cool. Let me elaborate.
This is the DJ Booth, where dj's talk shop. But does it matter in the performance? No it doesn't. The only people who are impressed by what media a dj uses are other dj's. Since there are far too many of us to try to gain the respect of all, it's left to the dancers (the people we actually perform for) to make the call.

Nemesis, I agree that there are plenty who jump on the bandwagon and go straight to digital means (software, computers, etc) to perform. For this, I can agree that it's not right. This is why I always suggest to newbie producers to get on the decks before they start pushing thier music. The perspective of the dancefloor has a powerful message. For Ableton users who have never experienced that, it could mean the difference between a good night and bad.

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Originally posted by TwistedDUO Wow I pity your myopic view. You must live in some bubble with a relentless attitude to hold on to things that are "classic". You might want to do yourself a favor (as a dj and musician) and accept digital technology as a friend. Contrary to what you're stating, I Digital technology provides for enhancability and adapatation to the dj's set. Which, IMHO is what makes a good dj, a great dj.

i know the software side of DJing & enjoyed it, at first. but broke away from it because i get a personal sense of ACCOMPLISHMENT from having to nudge/sustain beats together manually (beatmatching in the headphones)...i just don't get the same sense of accomplishment when i am pushing a mouse. if you want to use the software, that's just fine.

someone else's threshhold for sense of "accomplishment" may peak at mastering the mouse & nuances of software. using software is not enough for me - using crude controls to maintain the beats is what i consider challenging. for the DJ, there is DANGER in miscalculating your drop, DANGER in a trainwreck.

i hold it in higher regard than the mouse because beatmatching is a skill that is PERSHIABLE...you have to practice to get it right & keep the edge. THERE IS NO OTHER SKILL LIKE IT. you could use the same words to describe someone learning a new software suite, but you know it's not the same.

so again, my point is we are never going to stray very far from beatmatching using bare hands and tables/wheels as an art form because it's human nature to challenge ourselves that way.

we did not become the superior race by eating grass...we became the superior race by eating MEAT!!!!

I guess it lies in the age old question, "What is a 'skilled' dj?"

For me it's about knowing music and being able to manipulate sound. It's also about being able to read people and move a crowd. Things like mouse clicking or crossfading are otherwise mechanical skills that can be taught. My son has been watching me mix for years. I'm sure if he applied himself to the craft, he'd be a great technical mixer. But does he know sound and music? Does he know how to move a crowd? Since he has never witnessed it for himself, since he doesn't follow the production methods of electronic music, then the answer would be no.

I feel that it'd not the means of what a dj does, but the ends of the means that matters. It's not what the uses to make people dance but how he does it. If the dj is capable of tweaking a sound in such a way to make the crowd go into a frenzy. Then the dj has done his job. His skills come out in the noise and show as a result of what happens on the dancefloor.

Now whether the dj uses a computer, vinyl acetate, or cd's, it becomes irrelevant because it's the effect the media has on the dancefloor that is the true measure of a dj's skills. Digital media allows me to become one step closer to being a performing musician. It allows me more options to tweak the sound and thus send the dancefloor into a frenzy.

This is why I choose digital media and why I think many others do as well.

quote:

Originally posted by TwistedDUO The only people who are impressed by what media a dj uses are other dj's.

I'm going to give you two scenarios, and I'd like you to tell me which one would get the better reaction...

1.) Sasha or another Ableton DJ uses an echo and a filter during a build, by adjusting the knobs on their MIDI controller, and then push a button and overlay a vocal from another tune.
2.) Donald Glaude scratches with his foot, his nose or his chin on a vinyl record, or Zabiela scratches on CDJ + EFX.

The crowd is going to love seeing #2, as opposed to #1. They'll be impressed and go, "Oh shit!" at Glaude or Zabiela, as opposed to not even knowing what Sasha or the Ableton-DJ is doing.

The medium can, indeed, affect the crowd reaction.

So then your reasoning for using non-digital means is because "it's more flashy". This is absurd since it takes much greater skill to create a musical composition live than to do a simple scratch.

quote:

Originally posted by TwistedDUO So then your reasoning for using non-digital means is because "it's more flashy". This is absurd since it takes much greater skill to create a musical composition live than to do a simple scratch.

Where did I say that this was my reason? I simply stated that it appeals more to a crowd.

I'll be pleased just to hear solid sets, no matter the medium.

A good DJ is a good DJ - whether it's two pieces of wax or X number of audio channels in Ableton.

quote:

Originally posted by Nemesis44 I'm not going to argue for or against one medium or another. It really doesn't matter. What I will say is that I have never been impressed by anything I have seen on Ableton as a DJing tool. I have seen guys drop vocals over tracks, I have seen them loop stuff and use basslines from other stuff etc. The point is that I have seen this done with both decks and CDJs too. The one difference in these cases is that if you see somone doing this on Ableton, you know that it's actually not that difficult. You see someone do this on decks and you know the guy has skills. The best Ableton performances I have seen have been from guys who already knew how to DJ before they started using this. Guys who where just Ablton users have in my experience missed the finer points of DJ and replaced it with a look what I can do attitude which seldom works in the clubs. That said you get some really sucky vinyl and CDJ performances also so it's each to their own. My only dislike on Ableton users is that some are prepared to put themselves on the same level as DJs who have been working for years just becase they can acheive a similar result but don't have the dues paid. I think you will find that a lot of clubs still shy away from laptop performances unless you are established and even then will frown on it, although I believe this will change. My dislike from the otherside of DJing is that traditional DJs will slate digital without understanding it. I love CDJs at the moment and personally think it's the best format for playing out. I still drop the occasional vinyl. It will probably be a cold day in hell before I play on Ableton as I find it really boring. But who knows what the future holds... as some bright spark with big green ears once said, "Always in motion the future is, not possible to see what may or may not come to be". I think Z's comment is valid in someways as I also believe that the Ableton format will change and there will be some breakthrough in technology that renders all that we know today obsolete. But the most important thing that we need to take with us as DJs whether we use Digital or Analogue is our ability to make people have a good time. Cheers Nem

+1

the djs who go straight to digital often don't have that polishing that you find with those of us who've learned on vinyl and transferred what we know to digital

i too was a huge vinyl fan but have now switched to cdj for playing out, it's easier because i don't have to worry about losing records, if i lose a cd, i re-burn it

it's not the vehicle that counts but the journey

ultimately, it's about everyone having a good time with good music

Re: Re: Re: Future of mixing Software is bleak!

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Z here's why: the only reason why you have to use a program like Final Scratch is because it ONLY exists on a computer right now. the TT---cable----computer-----Final Scratch chain is an example of a system in it's first generation. all someone has to do is develop a TT that has it's own processor/media storage and you won't need to hook all that other crap to it. if you are a die-hard Final Scratch user, i bet you would JUMP at the chance to break the chain to your computer & access everything on the TT's processor. so they only thing u carry around is your poeckt-sized hard drive to plug in...

Okay, so what your proposing is a DJ just carries his own HD around with him, plugs into the club's new digital interface turntables, right? That's not practical at all.

For one thing, it would be a bitch to develop and execute in any sort of useful fashion. The biggest problem is that you would need some sort of screen and GUI so that the DJ can look through and select songs from his collection. Where would this screen be placed? a tiny iPod sized screen and accompanying controls nestled into the corner of a turntable would not only be a bitch to squeeze in, but the size and limited controls would make it a bitch to navigate and read. You could argue for some sort of larger, external screen, but that just adds cost and complication. Despite that, you'd still need more than a tiny batch of buttons with which to navigate your music collection, and by the time you add that, why not just use a fucking laptop? One reason why Serato and FS are so popular is because you can catalogue your music and search for it quickly and easily. You can't do that when it's just indexed on a hard drive. Not to mention the added complexity and cost that you get from putting a small processor/OS into a turntable. It's just one more thing that can break down. There is a reason why Technics are the undisputed industry standard, and that is because they are simple, reliable machines that are free from unnecessary bullshit. They work every time.

And then there's the problem of implementation. You envision
DJs only needing to carry a hard drive with their music, correct? In order for that to actually work, these multimedia turntables would have to somehow upheave Technics AND CDJs as the undisputed industry standard (good luck). What happens when a DJ shows up at a club with his HD only to find the club has regular turntables and a mixer? Globe trotting A list DJs can get away with just about any sort of equipment requests they desire, but for the other 99% of DJs out there, it's either use what the club already has or BYOE. If you're going to BYOE then it completely and utterly defeats the purpose you are hoping to complish. One reason Serato/Final Scratch is popular becuase just about every decent club/bar in the world has Technics. You're hardly ever in for any suprises. Hell, I've even considered switching from CD to Serato simply for that reason, becuase I don't want to have to worry about inferior CD decks at any potential gigs (I even made a thread about it a couple of weeks ago).

A laptop is NOT difficult or troublesome to carry to a club. I have a small laptop bag, about the size of a briefcase. I can fit my laptop external sound card (which is the same size as a Serato control box) in there EASILY. I could get two records in there no sweat (which could potentially be my two Serato control records). Seriously, I carry this thing all over the place on a regular basis anyways. You'd have to be majorly fucking lazy to complain about that sort of ease. Setting it up at the club isn't a big deal either. Hell, I've seen James Zabiela bring his own laptop and EFX-1000 to a club and set them up within a matter of 10 minutes, and that's while the warmup DJ was still playing, and this is with the two of them crammed into a tiny fucking booth. Traditional bands have to setup and soundcheck well before their scheduled performance. DJs really have it easy in the setup department.

quote:

someone else's threshhold for sense of "accomplishment" may peak at mastering the mouse & nuances of software. using software is not enough for me - using crude controls to maintain the beats is what i consider challenging. for the DJ, there is DANGER in miscalculating your drop, DANGER in a trainwreck. i hold it in higher regard than the mouse because beatmatching is a skill that is PERSHIABLE...you have to practice to get it right & keep the edge. THERE IS NO OTHER SKILL LIKE IT. you could use the same words to describe someone learning a new software suite, but you know it's not the same.

Actually, beatmatching is like riding a bike for DJs who have been donig it long enough. You just don't forget. It becomes second nature.

And if using software is "not enough for you," then you are obviously not taking it nearly as far as it can go. It's one thing prefer a traditional turntable setup as a matter of personal preference--that's fine. But if you are dismissing something like Ableton as being too easy then you've only just scratched the surface on its potential. Why not do like Richie Hawtin and James Zabiela and keep the decks, and integrate Ableton in alongside it?

quote:

Originally posted by TwistedDUO it's the effect the media has on the dancefloor that is the true measure of a dj's skills.

Dance floor full of drunk/rolling/cracked out dickwads that don't know what or who they're hearing most of the time.. some of us in hear care more about the music and the art of mixing rather than trying to impress random shitheads flapping their meatsticks in the air thinking your tiesto.

personally I think that skill doesn't give much music-wise.

I mean, you can do insane two-hands-two-feet-one-dick scratch on 4 vinyls accompanied by Ableton, CDJ, EFX1000 and eventually send SHIT over the wires to the PA system. I'd prefet to listen to someone like Lemon8 mixing one sweet track into another that see Zabiela or Sasha play minimal-electro-breaks with all toes at once. I'm not talking about good or bad mixing, I'm talking about the MUSIC!!! the ELECTRONIC MUSIC that brought us together on TA somewhere in 200... ))))

Numark Hdx.

i think your thinking about something like this.

I hope vinyl lives on, its such a rush getting new records.

quote:

Originally posted by starboy Dance floor full of drunk/rolling/cracked out dickwads that don't know what or who they're hearing most of the time.. some of us in hear care more about the music and the art of mixing rather than trying to impress random shitheads flapping their meatsticks in the air thinking your tiesto.

I'm going to agree with this, and I would have to think the bedroom DJs here would as well.

quote:

Originally posted by starboy Dance floor full of drunk/rolling/cracked out dickwads that don't know what or who they're hearing most of the time.. some of us in hear care more about the music and the art of mixing rather than trying to impress random shitheads flapping their meatsticks in the air thinking your tiesto.

That's harsh considering it's those "dickwads" that keep you in business, right? You can assume without knowing me or who I am that Id don't care about the art or the music. But it's actually because of these reasons why I choose a digital format. I'm not going to go through it all again, you can read up-thread some to figure it out.

Thanks for your input, though.

I think Starboy is actually partially right, there is a percentage on the dancefloor who definately fit into that category.

But you can break clubbers down into four categories and it goes a little something like this (hit it)

1. You have your critical bedroom DJs who will anorak you to death and they either love you or hate you. Some secretly hate you but will be trying to grease you so that they can get a break. Some will want to know everything you have done, will want to know what tunes you played that they didn't recognise and so on. Some will come and tell you that one tune just needs to be speeded up a little, just to make themselves seem in the know (besides the fact that your not actually mixing at the time. A large group of these guys are genuinly nice people who are just looking for a break and who can blame them, being a DJ is the best feeling in the world.

2. You have the group that just want to get loaded no matter what and no matter how, they just want a good vibe and to meet someone to get it on with. Who can blame them, it's an escape from the mundane and makes life worth living for some people. It's not everyones idea of a good time but we are all different.

3. You have the random clubber who doesn't necessarily know Eddie Halliwell from Pete Tong but loves clubbing and enjoys a good time and will appreciate a good hard working DJ that performs well and they will definately understand someone that's into the music and plays well.

4. Your clubbers who go with the sole purpose of wanting an exceptional DJ performance and who DO know their tunes even though they don't DJ themselves. And trust me, these guys are not a minority by any means. These guys will have their favourite DJs and they do actually communicate on forums of their own and spread the word, especially if a DJ has been a tit towards someone. This is the power of the internet for you.

Most importantly, let's not forget that if this people didn't exist we would not have any reason to DJ other than the fun of it. For most guys and gals on this forum or sole purpose for being is to prove that we have what it takes to play to the afore mentioned people (I know there are exceptions). Word to the wise my friends, don't bite the hand that feeds you. Smile and be nice, you may not be remembered for it, but they will definately remember if your attitude sucks towards them. It's part of being a proffesional, you may be tired and not into it, but it's what you are getting paid for, remember that.

Cheers
Nem

quote:

Originally posted by RJT I'll be pleased just to hear solid sets, no matter the medium. A good DJ is a good DJ - whether it's two pieces of wax or X number of audio channels in Ableton.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

The music > *

I learned all my basics and a few other tricks on my CDJs, I learned how to beatmatch/how to phrase and how to mix 2 tracks together.

Mixing 2 tunes together over and over, does it for some people and I respect that, that's the mark of a classic DJ that does it for the music purely and doesnt give much of a fuck about the method, given the tediousness of it.


I switched over to Ableton Live, I dont regret it, I love spending hours on end to find a new little trick, I love how it's a frontier yet to be fully discovered/mastered, and I love how you can DJ with it as a "classic" DJ would, 1 track into the other, or take on mixing from a different perspective, try new things and maybe surprise a few people by doing something totally unexpected!


To say programs like Ableton wont last I believe is silly, to crap on it is also silly and means you're afraid that the big scary digital DJ is gonna shit on your pillow and sleep with your girlfriend.


GO VINYL! GO CDJ! GO SOFTWARE! To each his own, play the music, enjoy the music in whatever you want, so long as you arent standing behind those decks insulting the club goers by putting on an ass performance, then you're ok in my books!

Also in regards to the music...

We listen to the most "futuristic" sounding music, a music that evolves "imo" a lot quicker than many many other forms of music, the way we make it changes, the way we play it is bound to change and is bound to evolve just as the music does!

Our music is teh pwnz boys and girls, it's the future, it scares people, it gives little kids nightmares and makes robots wish they had pants to shit themselves in, I think there's gotta be some harmony between how we first started mixing the music, and how we will continue to mix the music in the future!

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