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-- Chavez threat to seize food shops
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Originally posted by tathi ive met quite a few Venezualans in South America so far and i plan to visit the country after i spend a few months in Colombia, every Venezualan ive met HATES Chavez (these are the people who can afford to travel in south american countries outside of Venezuala) it just goes to show how polarised the country is, in the provinces and in the slums of Caracas im sure ill meet people who idolise the man.

Chavez was democractically elected by over 62% of people who voted. I guess by that analogy you can see the state of the country - the rich hate him, the poor love him, and there at least a 60% poverty rate there, partially credited to Chavez and mainly to his predecessors. And oil-rich country when there's a lot of poor people ... thats been an issue for Venezuela for so many years now, long before Chavez ....

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Chavez was democractically elected by over 62% of people who voted. ....

yeah, we get that point mate. you have beaten that horse past the point.

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Originally posted by MisterOpus1 Sorry, too much coffee this morning......

Too much wine for me mate!

Read me Reviews, ha ha ha

Remember: Its not communism, its Chavism!

How it works...

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Remember: Its not communism, its Chavism! How it works...

Pavlov's Dog would be proud!!

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Originally posted by LazFX yeah, we get that point mate. you have beaten that horse past the point.

Yes, the point is that Venezuelan people chose communism, not democracy. Chaves is no democrat. His platform in 1998 involved rewriting the constitution. Read my previous posts over ... there are not good choices for Venezuelan people, because the fight for political domination continues!

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Yes, the point is that Venezuelan people chose communism, not democracy. Chaves is no democrat. His platform in 1998 involved rewriting the constitution. Read my previous posts over ... there are not good choices for Venezuelan people, because the fight for political domination continues!

Communism and democracy are not mutually exclusive. Theoretically, it is possible to have both at the same time.

However, don't let me interrupt you talking out of your ass though.

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Originally posted by Aquadyne Communism and democracy are not mutually exclusive. Theoretically, it is possible to have both at the same time. However, don't let me interrupt you talking out of your ass though.

Stop trying to wretch theory on actual events. In theory communism is supposed to be perfect, right? Well, well, in YOUR DREAMS is it possible to have BOTH at the same time. Everything is possible, but thats not the point here, the point here is whats happening. You're the one interrupting my thoughts by talking out of your own ass ;-)

Yeah, it's comments like these...

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Yes, the point is that Venezuelan people chose communism, not democracy

That make me realize that you have no idea for the most part of what you're talking about.

You are equating an economic system with a political system.

Democracy is a form of government
Communism is an economics system.

Learn to tell the difference.

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Originally posted by Aquadyne Yeah, it's comments like these... That make me realize that you have no idea for the most part of what you're talking about. You are equating an economic system with a political system. Democracy is a form of government Communism is an economics system. Learn to tell the difference.

Chavez changed the constitution to make him able to do these things in his 1998 election. Chavez is no democrat. He is a communist, and judging by being inspired by communist revolutionaries, he intends to create a communist union to fight against American domination.

He is doing it both economically, and politically.

He's a social democrat, sparky.

Proving once again, that democracy and principles of communism/socialism are not mutually exclusive

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Originally posted by Aquadyne He's a social democrat, sparky. Proving once again, that democracy and principles of communism/socialism are not mutually exclusive

So, you're saying that you never expected or anticipated that Chavez would do this??? You didnt think he would nationalize the industries, corporations? That was his campaign, to shut down America's influence in his country. Aimed against the rich and foreign powers like USA. Thats not very democratic now, is it?

I think you're confusing Capitalism with Democracy there.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium So, you're saying that you never expected or anticipated that Chavez would do this??? You didnt think he would nationalize the industries, corporations? That was his campaign, to shut down America's influence in his country. Aimed against the rich and foreign powers like USA. Thats not very democratic now, is it?

I can't make sense of your insane ramblings, you crazy hobo. You'll have to clarify what you are trying to say.

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Originally posted by Sunsnail I think you're confusing Capitalism with Democracy there.

Capitalism and democracy go hand in hand in the Western world ;-) Capitalism is the freedom and right to make your own fortune or something like that. Attack on capitalism would look like an attack on freedom, attack on democracy ;-)

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Originally posted by Aquadyne I can't make sense of your insane ramblings, you crazy hobo. You'll have to clarify what you are trying to say.

My point is:

Did you expect Chavez when elected to nationalize, close monopolies, corporations and foreign (primary American) influence in Venezuela? His campaign is aimed against the rich, against the American-backed forces.

Now ask yourself - if he made such vows during the election campaign, why do you whine about Chavez attacking "democracy"? Chavez' attempt to do his "reforms" and policies like in this food shops case, is no different than passing Patriot Act in United States - thats an attack on democracy.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Capitalism and democracy go hand in hand in the Western world ;-) Capitalism is the freedom and right to make your own fortune or something like that. Attack on capitalism would look like an attack on freedom, attack on democracy ;-)

LOL, I am making this into my sig. Comedy gold.

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Originally posted by Magnetonium My point is: Did you expect Chavez when elected to nationalize, close monopolies, corporations and foreign (primary American) influence in Venezuela? His campaign is aimed against the rich, against the American-backed forces. Now ask yourself - if he made such vows during the election campaign, why do you whine about Chavez attacking "democracy"? Chavez' attempt to do his "reforms" and policies like in this food shops case, is no different than passing Patriot Act in United States - thats an attack on democracy.

Settle down.

All I did was point out that communism and democracy are not mutually exclusive, because you seem to think that they are. Actually, if you think about states that seem to be the most prosperous and best places to live in, it is typically states with a high socialism component integrated into their political system.

For example, here's a list of top 10 states to live in according to survey by The Economist

1 Ireland
2 Switzerland
3 Norway
4 Luxembourg
5 Sweden
6 Australia
7 Iceland
8 Italy
9 Denmark
10 Spain


See what I mean?

Anyways, you seem to be highly agitated and incoherent today, did you forget to take your meds or something? Looking out for you, buddy.

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Originally posted by Aquadyne Settle down. All I did was point out that communism and democracy are not mutually exclusive, because you seem to think that they are. Actually, if you think about states that seem to be the most prosperous and best places to live in, it is typically states with a high socialism component integrated into their political system. For example, here's a list of top 10 states to live in according to survey by The Economist 1 Ireland 2 Switzerland 3 Norway 4 Luxembourg 5 Sweden 6 Australia 7 Iceland 8 Italy 9 Denmark 10 Spain See what I mean? Anyways, you seem to be highly agitated and incoherent today, did you forget to take your meds or something? Looking out for you, buddy.

Man, you are gold. You are comparing European countries that have for decades been stable politically and in most cases economically as well to an unstable Venezuela. Venezuela is no such country to match your criteria, I dont know where you get the statistics making Venezuela similar to the mentioned prosperous European countries. There was no such thing as democracy in Venezuela, otherwise leaders would not rewrite constitution every 10 years, gun down protester crowds and vow to crush America's influence, or suspend the Constitution as a pro-American "democratic" dictator in Venezuela did in 1989 to suppress public protests. Venezuela's system, economic and political status of the last three decades is nowhere near that of its European counterparts. Did Italy suspend its Constitution in last month's massive football riots in Sicily?

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Man, you are gold. You are comparing European countries that have for decades been stable politically and in most cases economically as well to an unstable Venezuela. Venezuela is no such country to match your criteria, I dont know where you get the statistics making Venezuela similar to the mentioned prosperous European countries. There was no such thing as democracy in Venezuela, otherwise leaders would not rewrite constitution every 10 years, gun down protester crowds and vow to crush America's influence, or suspend the Constitution as a pro-American "democratic" dictator in Venezuela did in 1989 to suppress public protests. Venezuela's system, economic and political status of the last three decades is nowhere near that of its European counterparts. Did Italy suspend its Constitution in last month's massive football riots in Sicily?

I wasn't saying that, though I would gladly make that comparison. What I was saying is that you seem to think that:

Communism and Democracy are diametrically opposed. They are not and I provided examples where not only principles of socialism and democracy function, but also examples where they function so well as to provide some of the best living environments in the world.

Furthermore, Chavez isn't a communist, he is a social democrat. This is fairly evident by the fact that he uses government funds to subsidize a ton of services not only for his own people, but even for people in other countries (such as heating oil for low income families in US)

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Originally posted by Aquadyne Furthermore, Chavez isn't a communist, he is a social democrat. This is fairly evident by the fact that he uses government funds to subsidize a ton of services not only for his own people, but even for people in other countries (such as heating oil for low income families in US)

Uh oh ... so I guess even the communist leaders afte WW2, who gaves trillions of dollars in money, food, arms to their friends around the world, and who actually had within their own borders free education, hospital care and such and such also fall into this category?

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Uh oh ... so I guess even the communist leaders afte WW2, who gaves trillions of dollars in money, food, arms to their friends around the world, and who actually had within their own borders free education, hospital care and such and such also fall into this category?

Depending which communist leaders you're referring to. Not everything is as absolute as you'd like to believe. In my opinion, China right now is pretty much communist in name only, some states are practicing extreme forms of Stalinism like North Korea. But that's another topic altogether.

However, in Venezuela there is private enterprise and private corporations in Venezuela as well elections - so comparing them to communist states is not only unfair, but also inaccurate.

Government controls key industries that are vital to the survival of the state, private enterprise picks up slack elsewhere. What's wrong with that?

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Originally posted by Magnetonium Uh oh ... so I guess even the communist leaders afte WW2, who gaves trillions of dollars in money, food, arms to their friends around the world

yeah that was called Communist imperialism. again, you've managed to conflate two distinct arguments and now on your way to a third defending Chavez it seems like.

BTW Venezuela's inflation rate at this moment is 18.4%, thats about standard for a post-war communist state.

That inflation rate is largely due to introducing mass credit purchasing into Venezuela in the past 2 years.

Purchase of automobiles by Venezuelans were up 70% in 2006, I believe.

It's a trade off. Inflation will stabilize, bolstered by petro-dollars but an introduction of credit purchasing into Venezuelan society is a massive milestone.

his set price controls on petroleum domestically, how does that stifle inflation?

and he is in the process of overvaluing his currency IMO
>link< in an effort control inflation.


oh, you probably mean he'll make up his petro-dollar losses domestically from his exports?

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