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quote:

Originally posted by tiesto14 ya and people shouldnt do alot of things..that made nosense

it was a joke. I said I didnt have an answer.

And yeah I do think a lot of people get aids for being drug users and other stuff. if you look at percentages of people (and disregard sub saharan Africa for several reasons) the majority are in the gay/bi sexual/drug using/prostitute categories. And dont get so worked up about this. Discussions are calm rational conversations where people calmly try to get their point across. Your message sounded Upset and dont be. Im just putting an opinion. If you dont agree im interested in why not. Im more than open to new ideas. Everyone just be cool. As soon as it starts getting to the point where you are attacking eachother instead of the issue, tis wrong we are all TAs here

**and STDs arent abortions. Life is full of situations. im talking about abortion. Im not going to try to apply abortion principles to atomic decay theory either**

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax And yeah I do think a lot of people get aids for being drug users and other stuff. if you look at percentages of people (and disregard sub saharan Africa for several reasons) the majority are in the gay/bi sexual/drug using/prostitute categories.

so that means they desrve to die a horrible death?...being gay is not a crime nor is it bad...i am not gay for the record..LoL...drug addiction is bad i agree but not deserving of death and prostitution is a crime also but not desreving of death...

LoL and i am not mad or upset...this Abortion debate has gotten real heated before...this is nothing...LOL.....i jus responded to what u wrote tahts all....

Im not going to say AIDS is a punishment exactly. It merely a consequence of poor decisions. Is it bad yeah, do people deserve something horrible and severe? Im not one to judge that. But that should make it even more important to people. For the most part people really do know that yeah this has X chance of happening or this is a usual consequent of this. I know that if I drive drunk I have a good chance of killing someone. But lets say I plan to do it at 2 am when there arent that many people on the road. A cop pulls me over I get a DUI, a MIP, I lose my licence, I go to jail, pay a fine, people dont hire me, I have to go to AA meetings, my life now sucks because of one stupid mistake. these happen to be punishments but they were also consequences. No one died or even got close to being hurt but now my life is messed up? how is that fair? Did I deserve that much agony for a temporary mistake that had no bad side effects? I tried to reduce the chance of something bad happening but I still payed the price (the condom split so to speak). I dont know when I would say "in this case it is the RIGHT thing to do to have an abortion you would be wrong to not have one" are some cases morally permissable? its interesting. Will this issue EVER be resolved? probably not. Even amongst religious people of the same religion there are debates. Here is a dilemma. There is a tank coming at you that is a mile wide and travelling at 200 mph. You CANNOT dodge it. You have a missile that will destroy the tank if you hit it in the right spot. On top of the right spot is a squalling infant. Do you shoot the baby with the missile to save yourself or do you get killed? This was a LONG discussion with the people who have had this question put to them hehe.

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax I know that if I drive drunk I have a good chance of killing someone. But lets say I plan to do it at 2 am when there arent that many people on the road. A cop pulls me over I get a DUI, a MIP, I lose my licence, I go to jail, pay a fine, people dont hire me, I have to go to AA meetings, my life now sucks because of one stupid mistake. these happen to be punishments but they were also consequences. No one died or even got close to being hurt but now my life is messed up? how is that fair? Did I deserve that much agony for a temporary mistake that had no bad side effects?

well MOST deaths due to drinking and driving happen between the hours of 12 midnight and 4am...so i dont see how u reduced your risk...and yes u do desreve all that happens to u if u drive drunk because thousands and thousands of people die yearly due to drinking and driving accidents.....and if inforcing strick regulations and sentences for it lowers the chances of u doing it again then its definatley good....and all it takes is one accident to kill someone...u may get lucky 1 night but may not be so lucky the next...i persona;;y think if u get caught driving drunk the first time u get a little jail time the 2nd time more jail time and u lose your drivers license FOREVER...u forfeit your right to drive if u do it more then once...it kills too many innocent people...

so the moral of your story is live with the consequences of my stupid decision

that was a made up story BTW

hehe... boy oh boy, what did I start!!!!
Well Im glad to see there is a good debate going on in here.
ORBAX.. I see you are a JUNIOR TRANCEADDICT... WELCOME!!! As you may NOT know, TIESTO14 is somewhat of an argumenter!(if that's a word) (which isn't a bad thing by the way!).. and can sometimes come across as if he is being rude, mean, and DIFFICULT!..
I think both of you are making some valid points...
I made this thread for a REASON, and it wasn't to start *fights* even though I think you guys AREN'T fighting, but instead debating.. the point is that this is not what I started this thread for.. it was for OPINIONS that I needed in order to make a choice!.. Luckily, there was no need for me to have to make that choice.. (thank god), but I still say abortion is wrong.. about 70% of me says wrong, and 30% of me says yes depending on the circumstances. It all depends on the person, and the situation I think. blah
I thank you all (TA friends) for your input!

~S~

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax so the moral of your story is live with the consequences of my stupid decision that was a made up story BTW

YES u should...and i see what your trying to do...there is a difference between the consequences of drinking and driving and having sex....when u drink and drive you jeopardize the lives of many others because of your poor actions...when u have sex and have an abortion u are jeopardizing only yourself...so inturn since with DWI u run the risk of killing or hgurting other INNOCENT individuals u should face the consequences..unlike abortion which it still remains to be seen that u are hurting anyone but yourself...there is ZERO evidence that a fetus is yet a person....

quote:

Originally posted by Waxen hehe... boy oh boy, what did I start!!!! Well Im glad to see there is a good debate going on in here. ORBAX.. I see you are a JUNIOR TRANCEADDICT... WELCOME!!! As you may NOT know, TIESTO14 is somewhat of an argumenter!(if that's a word) (which isn't a bad thing by the way!).. and can sometimes come across as if he is being rude, mean, and DIFFICULT!..

LoL...me an arguementer...LoL.,..NEVER...=)

this is not a yes or no question...

abortion is a powerful tool that needs to be used but not abused.

funny how all of the people saying no are guys...

I am pro-choice. I believe it is up to each person to decide individually what is right for them.

I do not think that we should limit it to only people who have been raped. For instance, say there is a lady who is perfectly capable of raising a child but really doesn't want one, what kind of mom is she going to be? If she doesn't want it that badly I'd rather her give it up then raise a kid she could care less for and won't take care of properly

the easy answer to that is "give it for adoption then"...do you know how expensive it is to be pregnant and be healthy? Not to mention you have to take maternity leave because most women couldn't work right into labour and go back the next day...and maternity leave (at least in canada) is only 60% of your pay.

Plus someone who doesn't want the baby and is just going to give it up because they believe abortion is wrong is more likely to drink/smoke/drugs while they're pregnant because what do they care? as far as they're concerned it's not their kid.

not to mention the fact that an abortion is a really difficult thing for a woman to go through. First it can be terrible physically and in younger girls there is an increased chance of infertility. Plus it is HORRIBLY damaging emotionally...and even if the girl manages to deal with it okay at the time there is a really good chance she'll relapse a few years down the road. It's a decision I would never want to have to be faced with.

that's why I would never pass judgement on someone. You might believe it is wrong but sometimes keeping the kid is more detrimentle (however you spell that) to the kid's safety. Something that is only a couple organisms big isn't a baby to me and if you're going to argue that you're taking it's life away then I sure hope you're not using contraceptives that might harm sperm or a girls eggs because in my opinion it's the same thing and you shouldn't preach about one thing and be okay with the other. However if you whole heartedly believe both are wrong then I won't argue with you because at least you're steadfast in your beliefs and not a hypocrite and even if I disagree I admire that.

quote:

Originally posted by Waxen But don't you think that it's your problem. I mean.. if you were stupid enough to get pregnant in the first place why should you end your creations life because of a mistake you made? It's just an opinion but I think if your responsible enough to have sex then you should be responsible enough to raise that baby. I think abortion is just a selfish act to cover up a mistake someone made.. you just have to wipe your hands clean like it never happenned and move on with your life.. I think that is somewhat wrong. ~S~

what do you consider stupid enough to get pregnant? I mean, to you is sex only for the act of procreation? because it sure isn't to me. It's an act of of love and also of pleasure. If someone is not using any contraceptives at all, then yes, that's incredibly stupid, but it's easy to get pregnant when you're doing everything right.

For instance, I can not take oral contraceptives or depo provera (the shot), I am also allergic to spermicide and I am too young for a doctor to put an IUD in me. That leaves ONLY condoms. Condoms do break, they do slip, used properly they are 99.999% effective...but there is still that 0.001% that gets pregnant. Are you calling that woman stupid?

I'm guessing going by what you said aobut being stupid enough to get pregnant that you only have sex with someone after discussing and deciding that you want to have a kid with them sometime down the road...?? I sure hope so because otherwise you're being a terrible hypocrite.

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax this ones easy. No. because abortion should never happen in the first place. The mistake isnt made in saying Yes ill get an abortion. the mistake is made saying Ill have stupid unprotected sex when im not prepared for the consequences kind of stuff.

same goes for you...you don't have to be having unprotected sex to get pregnant...

*senses a fiery debate in the distance*

If you want to look at sex from a biological standpoint the ONLY point of it is sex. If it feels good then the species is likely to do it more and have more offspring. People associate someone doing something that feels good to them as an act of love or friendship. If they do something that hurts they are an enemy. You dont have sexx with enemies. The whole thing is rigged up to spark procreation. Like all our teachers said in sex ed "The only 100% surefire way to not get pregnant is abstinence". To put it crudely, if you dont want to have kids, dont F*CK. Anything else is accepting you might have a kid. If a woman doesnt want to have a kid but still wants to have sex...? that is called having your cake and eating too and not wanting to turn into a lard ass.

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax *senses a fiery debate in the distance* If you want to look at sex from a biological standpoint the ONLY point of it is sex. If it feels good then the species is likely to do it more and have more offspring. People associate someone doing something that feels good to them as an act of love or friendship. If they do something that hurts they are an enemy. You dont have sexx with enemies. The whole thing is rigged up to spark procreation. Like all our teachers said in sex ed "The only 100% surefire way to not get pregnant is abstinence". To put it crudely, if you dont want to have kids, dont F*CK. Anything else is accepting you might have a kid. If a woman doesnt want to have a kid but still wants to have sex...? that is called having your cake and eating too and not wanting to turn into a lard ass.

If this means you don't have sex at all without first making sure the girl would want to have a baby with you if she got pregnant I can totally respect your opinion. Completely.

My main beef is with people, guys usually, who believe abortion is wrong and yet just have sex because they're not the one that can get pregnant so they don't have to feel responsible for any abortion decision a girl makes, y'know? that's completely unfair. And I'd say about 80-90% of the guys who say abortion is wrong fit in this category. They never have to worry about having to make the decision themselves so they adopt a holier than thou attitude about the whole thing, makes me sick.

quote:

Originally posted by bug_bite same goes for you...you don't have to be having unprotected sex to get pregnant...

it is the most frequently used method of conception. but you are right you also get pregnant by having protected sex. So where does that put you in decisions on whether or not you are gonna have sex. Because any sex (normal sex...the regular definition of normal, not what is normal for you lol.) can lead to pregnancy you gotta say "by my having even a 99.999% of not conceiving there is that .0001% chance that I will. Am I willing to take that risk and accept the toss of the dice if I roll a .001? Thats like a gambler being pissed at the cards for the next one being a 5 instead of the Ace he really wanted. Not the cards fault...you shouldnt have been gamblin

And yes. A guy should never have sex without making the same committment to possibility. If you love someone enough to have sex with em you gotta be willing to have a kid with them. Although I dont think its right, there are many ways to create pleasure for a loved one. Sex is the ultimate.

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax it is the most frequently used method of conception. but you are right you also get pregnant by having protected sex. So where does that put you in decisions on whether or not you are gonna have sex. Because any sex (normal sex...the regular definition of normal, not what is normal for you lol.) can lead to pregnancy you gotta say "by my having even a 99.999% of not conceiving there is that .0001% chance that I will. Am I willing to take that risk and accept the toss of the dice if I roll a .001? Thats like a gambler being pissed at the cards for the next one being a 5 instead of the Ace he really wanted. Not the cards fault...you shouldnt have been gamblin

I understand what you're saying and I don't know where that would put me. At my age (almost 22) I'm more than old enough to care for a child. However I'm waiting to get into a Robotics program and am planning on having a kid when that's done with and I can financially provide for one as well. If I were to get pregnant right now I'd have to give up that program because I couldn't afford to live in such an expensive city with a new baby and go to school. That means I'd have to stay at my barely above minimum wage small city job and not care for my child as I could have in the future. I would probably make the sacrifices and keep the kid because I do have the means to take care of it and the love to give it so that it would be happy, and I don't believe it is right to give up a kid if you have all of those things to give to it...I would never regret having it but instead I would regret having it earlier than planned...

but that is just me, there are plenty of girls my age that it would be a blessing for them to not have the kid because if they did have it, it would probably have FAS or be born into an abusive life, etc. That is why I am pro-choice. I'd rather stop the problem before it became something bad for the child. To me I don't believe a couple of cells is a human life, it's a blood clot that's all. And that's why I'm okay with it. To you, obviously it is a life, and that is why you are not okay with it. I can see your side of things, I hope you can see mine.

well most people here know my side of the abortion debate...

basically these prolifers (usually liberal religious fanatics) proclaim this and that about it being a life and blah blah...and how people should own up to their poor choices in life...these prolifers blah blah act as if they are all mighty and have no vices...

there is absolutley ZERO ZILCH proof that a fetus either feels pain or is even a person at all....its absurd to think just because u have a microscopic organism in your body that u should keep purley on the fact that is may or may not be a life...

these people need or actually should focus their pathetic efforts on saving the living instead of the could be living...these same weirdo prolifers have murdered abortion doctors at clinics and still have the audacity to preach the same rhetoric to women that they are murderers for having an abortion...

people make mistakes...noone is exempt from that...you may jay-walk does that mean u should get hit by a car cus your not doing the right thing?...u may try a certain drug does that mean u should die of an overdose?...u may walk on a wet floor and know u run the chance of slipping and getting hurt..but does that mean u should fall on that wet floor and hit your head and fall into a coma?....its purely absurd for someone to say that every action must be followed by a concequence that is heart-aching...

ok so they say they should have the baby they screwed up...well that baby being born into a family that didnt want it will be more apt to abuse that child either physically or mentally then what...or that baby may be killed and thrown into a dumpster cus the mother want ready and didnt know what else to do...or maybe if its lucky it can be raised on welfare and scrounge for food everyday and live in horrific living conditions and wear old and dirty cloths each and evreryday while those jerk-off prolifers go on about their nice middle class lives paying NO MIND to the babies they proclaimed to have saved...thats selfish

you never once hear about these prolife morons helping out the babies after they are born...so basically they fight and fight for this life and have it be born (in many cases) into a terrible life and then abandon it the minute it enters are chaotic world...thats pretty weird...why dont they help out afterwards with clothing or schooling or food for these mothers who cant afford it?..or why dont they offer free of charge mental counceling for these mothers who are trying so hard to cope with not having an abortion because of these prolifers tactics...u wanna know why cus prolifer for the most part are SICK FUCKS with very little else to do in this world so they condem
everybody for taking control of their bodies...it makes me so fucking sick...

quote:

Originally posted by bug_bite what do you consider stupid enough to get pregnant? I mean, to you is sex only for the act of procreation? because it sure isn't to me. It's an act of of love and also of pleasure. If someone is not using any contraceptives at all, then yes, that's incredibly stupid, but it's easy to get pregnant when you're doing everything right.

Yes.. sex is an act of love... FOR SOME!.. Not for everyone.
For me though.. it IS an act of love. So.. if you were to create something out of an act of love, dont you think it's wrong to just get rid of it because your "not ready"?.. I sure as hell think it's wrong!I also agree that not using contraceptives is extremely dumb, but even people who use protection get pregnant. Then is it still wrong?

quote:

Originally posted by bug_bite For instance, I can not take oral contraceptives or depo provera (the shot), I am also allergic to spermicide and I am too young for a doctor to put an IUD in me. That leaves ONLY condoms. Condoms do break, they do slip, used properly they are 99.999% effective...but there is still that 0.001% that gets pregnant. Are you calling that woman stupid?

Are you a woman?

quote:

Originally posted by bug_bite I'm guessing going by what you said aobut being stupid enough to get pregnant that you only have sex with someone after discussing and deciding that you want to have a kid with them sometime down the road...?? I sure hope so because otherwise you're being a terrible hypocrite.

You read me wrong. Obviously people don't usually discuss children before they hop in the sack. Some people do, but it normally just happens (sex) for the majority of the people in this world. If your talking about me specifically.. YES I DON'T sleep with someone unless I can see myself with that person in the future! I always think ahead of time before things even begin to happen! It's like that for everyone! There is a difference between sleeping with someone just because.. and sleeping with a person you love. Even people who get pregnant by the person they love STILL have abortions?. Dont you think that's wrong?.. I do! There are all the reasons too like "Im not financially ready" "Im too young".. bla bla.. I just think people should take responsibility for their actions. I don't know.. I agree with it in some ways, which I know is contradicting.. but like I said earlier Im 70% NO, 30% YES for certain reasons that I won't get into. Either way, there is no point in arguing about it. Everybody has their beliefs, and arguing isn't going to change those beliefs. I just see all these woman in the world who want a baby so bad and CAN'T!.. and then I see all these irresponsible people getting pregnant and using abortion as a form of birth control. It's really sad. I think being pregnant is a blessing that shouldn't be messed with. It's a fate.. and good things will come to you if you accept it.

~S~

#1 liberal religious types are proliers? thats conservative bud. Yeah it doesnt feel pain. if feeling pain is your definition of life go ahead and kill everyone under general anesthetic becuase why not? they cant feel it? and the point is it AINT DEAD bro. so do you mean it isnt human? religous arguments aside DNA makes us human and the very first cell has that. It cant think? neither can mental retarded people. Or do you beleive in Adolf Hitlers method of cleansing the populace by gassing developmentally disabled people? You are basing humanity on pretty thin stuff. and the % of "pro lifers" that murder abortion clinic doctors is probably around the area of 0.00000001%. thats the stupidest argument FOR abortion ive ever heard. well the prolifers kill people?? People who call themselves humanitarians crash planes into world trade center buildings too. That must mean all humanitarians do that...and your J-walking example. its great except for one thing...No they SHOULDNT be hit by a car but there is a GOOD chance of it, thus the law against it. Every time you have sex you SHOULDNT get pregnant, but be ready for the possibility! I also dont think people should be murdered does that mean I have to give money to every person that isnt murdered? Thats another stupid argument. LOL and yeah people are so "in control" of their bodies they have to have someone inject them with chemicals to control it, Good point! and remember the mistake aint the abortion it is the turning away from reality that makes people think "I CANT BELIEVE I HAD SEX AND GOT PREGNANT!" A lot of things SHOULDNT happen but they DO. This isnt utopia so get with reality and start understanding consequences. Its ridiculous what people will say yes to so they can preserve their pathetic little idea that they control everything. its sad...next it will be the tide shouldnt be allowed to be controlled by the moon! who the hell is the MOON to say what the tide does...

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax ...next it will be the tide shouldnt be allowed to be controlled by the moon! who the hell is the MOON to say what the tide does...

LOL!!!!!

Good point I guess

~S~

quote:

Originally posted by Waxen Are you a woman?

yes

quote:

I just see all these woman in the world who want a baby so bad and CAN'T!.. and then I see all these irresponsible people getting pregnant and using abortion as a form of birth control. It's really sad. I think being pregnant is a blessing that shouldn't be messed with. It's a fate.. and good things will come to you if you accept it. ~S~

I hear ya on this one, thinking that it's okay because "i'll just get rid of it" is EXTREMELY irresponsible in my opinion. But again, there are situations where I think even if you were in love with someone you should feel comfortable aborting. For instance, say the guy is unemployed because he was laid off (happens all the time) and the girl is barely making enough to make bills meet...how are they going to cope when she has to go on maternity leave and have their income cut? How is that baby going to be cared for if at the current moment they can't care for themselves.

That's a very realistic situation and getting out of a financial situation like that (getting a new job and paying back the bills that piled up while you are unemployed) can take a year or more. In a case like that I'd rather the couple abort because otherwise the kid will be malnurished and possibly the stress of it all will pull the couple apart making it harder both financially and emotionally on the kid

And you can't expect them to just stop making love until they start making more money...that's not what love is about.

I dunno...I just believe there are a lot of legitimate reasons. But like I said, I don't believe a few cells are equivalent to a baby so I see things much differently than you do.

quote:

Originally posted by bug_bite I don't believe a few cells are equivalent to a baby so I see things much differently than you do.

This is proof of how uneducated people are on this.
By the time a woman finds out she's pregnant, it's usually about 2-4 weeks after her period was due.. (2-4 weeks late). By that time she could be up to 6 weeks pregnant. That is not just a few cells anymore.. by that time it has hands, feet, body structure, and it's heart is beating.
It's only a few cells/blob for the first week or two.

Sure it might not realize anything because it's brain isn't developed but that's where SPIRITS come in. I rather not get into that whole argument.

~S~

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax Yeah it doesnt feel pain. if feeling pain is your definition of life go ahead and kill everyone under general anesthetic becuase why not? they cant feel it? and the point is it AINT DEAD bro. so do you mean it isnt human?

go ahead and find me 1 credible evidence that it feels pain...that debate has gone on for decades and to this day has yet to be prooven to be true.....i am talking facts and there are no scientific facts backing up the theory tthat an aborted fetus feels any pain during the procedure.

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax religous arguments aside DNA makes us human and the very first cell has that.

depends on the religion....many religions beleive that life does not begin till your first breath out of the womb...and thats Christianity i think...

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax and the % of "pro lifers" that murder abortion clinic doctors is probably around the area of 0.00000001%. thats the stupidest argument FOR abortion ive ever heard. .

how is that stupid .... u cant kill then say killing is wrong...

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax I also dont think people should be murdered does that mean I have to give money to every person that isnt murdered? Thats another stupid argument. .

no why would u....i dont get your point

quote:

Originally posted by Orbax This isnt utopia so get with reality and start understanding consequences. Its ridiculous what people will say yes to so they can preserve their pathetic little idea that they control everything. its sad...next it will be the tide shouldnt be allowed to be controlled by the moon! who the hell is the MOON to say what the tide does...

well the fuck are u to say whether or not a woman should or should not have an abortion....it is her body ......u are so quick to say everyone should own up to their consequences...i am so fucking sure that you pay for all your mistakes...ya ok

u keep saying i am stupid...well u have yet to point out why abortion is bad...besides the fact that people should pay for their mistakes....it seems like u would rather have a baby born into this world regardless of the fact that it is not wanted and will more often then not be resented every day of its life and run the risk of being abused mentally and physically...and dont say it doesnt happen cus everyone knows it does....

so whats your reasons besides owning up to responsibilities....

quote:

Originally posted by Waxen This is proof of how uneducated people are on this. By the time a woman finds out she's pregnant, it's usually about 2-4 weeks after her period was due.. (2-4 weeks late). By that time she could be up to 6 weeks pregnant. That is not just a few cells anymore.. by that time it has hands, feet, body structure, and it's heart is beating. It's only a few cells/blob for the first week or two. Sure it might not realize anything because it's brain isn't developed but that's where SPIRITS come in. I rather not get into that whole argument. ~S~

You're right, there is a heart beat but that is all:


Fetal Development
Fetal Development: Week 6
Approved by the BabyCenter Medical Advisory Board

You may not look pregnant at this point, but your embryo's heart, no bigger than a poppyseed, has already begun to beat and pump blood. The heart is dividing into chambers, and will find a more regular rhythm soon. The embryo itself is about a quarter inch long and looks more like a tadpole than a human. It undergoes a growth spurt this week.

(taken from http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/pr...opment/808.html )

I do agree with you that once it develops hands, feet, body parts, a brain...that is way too late, that is a person. But a quarter inch tadpole is not a person to me. Most women suspect they're pregnant right away but you're right, often they don't confirm it until their period is really late because they're hoping it's something else.

yes and lets not touch on the spiritual side of things...that's a much bigger topic haha

define a human please

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