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-- Are Vocal Trance bad for Trance?
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quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 Yeah that's what I am sort of reluctant to do. They hardly sound like trance. As I said in my post, I dunno if some of the tracks I listed were "trance". And for all I know, if there are vocals in trance, they are a lot more subtle. Most of the trance out there is instrumental. But back in the day (2002, 2003, 2004) before I came on TA, I thought they were trance but with vocals, but I really didn't consider them "vocal trance".

There is trance with vocals, but they are used more in a 'chant' like style, to aid in bringing you into a trance.

Most 'vocal trance' though relies on verse/chorus/verse structure. THAT is the realm of euro dance.

quote:

Originally posted by Sykonee There is trance with vocals, but they are used more in a 'chant' like style, to aid in bringing you into a trance. Most 'vocal trance' though relies on verse/chorus/verse structure. THAT is the realm of euro dance.

I know. But I still don't understand the idea about trance literally bringing you into a trance. I mean maybe with goa/psy stuff, that is certainly a major factor in that trance style as well as some stuff in the new age/ambient catagory. I have never taken the term so literally in the non goa/psy stuff, which I know is kind of stupid but that's just me. I hear that all of the time from those who were into the older style (pre 98) but I have never really thought by listening to trance I would be literally put into trance. I had always considered "trance" to be a more melodic style of EDM that had melodic fragments repeated throughout with some breakdowns here and there (which is pretty much progressive trance, which I consider such guys like BT, PvD and Oliver Lieb). And then epic trance being like that, but over-extending the breakdowns to make it sound more "epic" (Armin, Rank 1, Svenson & Gielen/Airscape, Above & Beyond, Ferry Corsten/System F etc) . I just thought of most vocal trance as the epic style with vocals on top, which a lot of it is. I guess it's hard for me to understand this, as I never got that into the chanting, really hypnotic stuff, it was really BT, Paul van Dyk, Oakenfold, Above & Beyond, Thrillseekers and Tiesto that got me into this music. I did like some of the stuff Oakenfold spun in his earlier days, the goa and some of the older style, but he got more into the progressive style eventually...when I really got into him. I was, and still am, a big fan of Tastexperience's "Summersault" and I have no idea if that would be considered true "trance" or what. But that's the sound I like, even more so than epic.

Well, bear in mind the word trance was co-opted to mean a lot of different things at the turn of the century, mainly because it was such a marketable term then. Put 'trance' on your cover, and you'll undoubtedly push more units than something with, say, 'melodic dance hits'.

Same was true for 'techno' at the beginning of the 90s.

quote:

Originally posted by Sykonee Well, bear in mind the word trance was co-opted to mean a lot of different things at the turn of the century, mainly because it was such a marketable term then. Put 'trance' on your cover, and you'll undoubtedly push more units than something with, say, 'melodic dance hits'. Same was true for 'techno' at the beginning of the 90s.

Yeah but the style your talking about, the trance, which I have heard some, sounds more like techno or goa/psy trance than it does progressive and epic, which in some cases, are their own style seperate from goa and psy but with some influences. They might not be as true to the term, but they certaintly have some influences from the early style. Take Cygnus X's "Superstring", Humate's "Love Stimulation (any mix)", or some of Cosmic Baby's stuff. Those are the fore-runners to progressive trance, they are what eventually turned into "progressive trance". They are melodic, and don't not have huge breakdowns. Progressive trance doesn't, but that's then where epic trance comes along and where it becomes less like trance. It's kind of like taking rock music and turning it into post-rock music, the influences are there (and there are some in epic and some vocal stuff) but it gets more and more diluted.

So in that case, progressive trance is more "trance-like" than epic is. So in that case, I agree. But seriously, in the build ups in a lot of epic tracks, there is that typical trance sound that hs been around for ages, but when the breakdowns become so long, it looses it. But as far as the escapist aspect, it still remains in some tracks (like say Midway's "Monkey Forest" or Rapid Eye's "Circa Forever (RE Mix)) dunno if those tracks you would consider "epic trance" but they are kinda of in the middle. I still hear the melodic influences in those tracks that had deferentiated trance from the more repetitive techno type stuff. I just have always liked trance because I did not and continue not to be a fan of techno (some I can stand).

So I've always tried to deferentiate the two (tell people, it's not techno!). And one of the things that kind of bugs me about this continuing debate, is that there are so many artists and DJs that are labeled trance, that if you take trance just to mean really fast, repetitive and rhythmic music, you take out more than half of what has been produced and who DJ the style. And they do have a tendency to blend progressive with epic. There are some who are just epic, but they aren't quite as big or even respected (like George Acosta, he's all epic, anthem after anthem). If you want to continue this discussion, PM me, cause I have to go and I don't want to take up this thread with it, thanks.

no. producers who dont know how to make good vocal tracks are bad for trance

No, as long as they're not cheese.

quote:

Originally posted by Igaryok No, as long as they're not cheese.

I've never heard a single vocal "trance" tune that wasn't cheesy.

quote:

Originally posted by Project-K I've never heard a single vocal "trance" tune that wasn't cheesy.

BT - Blue Skies (Paul Van Dyk's Blauer Himmel Mix)
BT - Mercury & Solace
Grace - Not Over Yet (BT's Spirit Of Grace Mix)
Sasha - Be As One
Jan Johnston - Flesh


they can be done tastefully

Is tasteful and cheesy mutually exclusive? (serious question)

good question but i think the answer is yes, for example ''Angelic - Can't Keep Me Silent (Dumonde Mix)'', there are a lot more but i don't feel like listing several pages right now

to answer the original question, nope, vocals are not bad for trance, bad vocals are bad for trance

quote:

Originally posted by Astral7 good question but i think the answer is yes, for example ''Angelic - Can't Keep Me Silent (Dumonde Mix)'', there are a lot more but i don't feel like listing several pages right now

yuck, those vocals were horrid! prime example of an excellent tune ruined by singing imo (the original i mean.. wasn't too much into dumonde's remix)

'stay with me' was even worse, i remember jules playing a dub version once and i fell in love with it despite it being borderline cheese as it was.. but it just sounded tacky with the vocals on it. gutted the dub never got released

quote:

Originally posted by isoterra yuck, those vocals were horrid! prime example of an excellent tune ruined by singing imo

check out the Dumonde Mix again...you can't say it ruined anything there, if anything it made the song better
but eh...everybody's got it's own opinion

quote:

Originally posted by Cobalt On a related note, I think I've finally switched preference to the original version of Perception, though I still quite like the vocal.

I've always preferred the original version (I was horrified when I first heard the vocal version, though I now have more sympathy for it; it's catchy), but I think you and I are in the minority these days.

It's a question of how they're employed. Vocals in trance are not bad by default- it's about how those vocals fit into the music. If you're going to construct a really good trance record and have vocals as another melodic element, it's fine. If you're going to write some vocals and build some trance-flavoured trappings around them, it isn't. And so forth.

how bad was do you know by angel city? it ruined children by robert miles singing over a good song doesnt mean your version is going to be good.

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 So I've always tried to deferentiate the two (tell people, it's not techno!). And one of the things that kind of bugs me about this continuing debate, is that there are so many artists and DJs that are labeled trance, that if you take trance just to mean really fast, repetitive and rhythmic music, you take out more than half of what has been produced and who DJ the style. And they do have a tendency to blend progressive with epic. There are some who are just epic, but they aren't quite as big or even respected (like George Acosta, he's all epic, anthem after anthem). If you want to continue this discussion, PM me, cause I have to go and I don't want to take up this thread with it, thanks.

Nah, I can continue it here. Maybe some of the kidz will learn something along with this.

I've an old compilation called Trance Traxx. Here are some of the tracks on it:

Snap! - Rhythm Is A Dancer
Captain Hollywood Project - Transformation
Le Park - Litchies
Hope - Tree Frog
Jaydee - Plastic Dreams

Now, there are some 'traxx' on this that would probably be deemed proper trance, but THESE one? The point here is just because something gets a 'trance' tag on it doesn't mean it really is. More likely it was used as a promotional tool, not as a means to put these tracks into a trance category.

The same can be said for a LOT of compilations and DJ mixes from around the late 90s/early '00s. In fact, this was how so much euro dance from then became regarded as trance, because they were put on compilations with a trance tag on them. But that doesn't make them actually trance any more than that old compilation made Plastic Dreams trance, despite some similarities in style.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J It's a question of how they're employed. Vocals in trance are not bad by default- it's about how those vocals fit into the music. If you're going to construct a really good trance record and have vocals as another melodic element, it's fine. If you're going to write some vocals and build some trance-flavoured trappings around them, it isn't. And so forth.

that's an interesting view.. for i'd have said the exact opposite

when you start with a vocal & construct a track around it, it becomes the centrepoint around which everything else is placed, thus resulting in greater chance of it fitting, like it was originally intended to be that way. if you come up with a shit-hot instrumental track beforehand though, there's a much greater chance of the vocal ruining it when you come to add it in, with a likelihood of it sounding slapped on, so to speak

quote:

Originally posted by isoterra that's an interesting view.. for i'd have said the exact opposite when you start with a vocal & construct a track around it, it becomes the centrepoint around which everything else is placed, thus resulting in greater chance of it fitting, like it was originally intended to be that way. if you come up with a shit-hot instrumental track beforehand though, there's a much greater chance of the vocal ruining it when you come to add it in, with a likelihood of it sounding slapped on, so to speak

Yup, completely agree with this

I'm not talking about throwing vocals over pre-made tracks. I'm talking about implementing the vocals from the start, but not having them be the reason the track exists. Vocal versions are crap because the original track wasn't built to have vocals in, which is different kettle of fish.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I'm not talking about throwing vocals over pre-made tracks. I'm talking about implementing the vocals from the start, but not having them be the reason the track exists. Vocal versions are crap because the original track wasn't built to have vocals in, which is different kettle of fish.

fair enough.. but still i tend to prefer vocal tracks that wouldn't work without the vocal, if you get me. otherwise i'd rather have them as instrumental

ive nothing against vocal tracks at all.

used properly in productions and they compliment the tracks but often 90% of vocal tracks dont cut the mustard.

quote:

Originally posted by Sykonee Nah, I can continue it here. Maybe some of the kidz will learn something along with this. I've an old compilation called Trance Traxx. Here are some of the tracks on it: Snap! - Rhythm Is A Dancer Captain Hollywood Project - Transformation Le Park - Litchies Hope - Tree Frog Jaydee - Plastic Dreams Now, there are some 'traxx' on this that would probably be deemed proper trance, but THESE one? The point here is just because something gets a 'trance' tag on it doesn't mean it really is. More likely it was used as a promotional tool, not as a means to put these tracks into a trance category. The same can be said for a LOT of compilations and DJ mixes from around the late 90s/early '00s. In fact, this was how so much euro dance from then became regarded as trance, because they were put on compilations with a trance tag on them. But that doesn't make them actually trance any more than that old compilation made Plastic Dreams trance, despite some similarities in style.

Oh I can definitely see what you mean because I can tell you that those tracks are surely NOT trance and I have never considered them it. I'm thinking more stuff like:

BT - Flaming June, Embracing The Future
PvD - For An Angel, Words, Another Way
Free Radcial - Surreal (En Motion Mix)
Hydra - Affinity (Thrillseekers Dub)
The Quest - C-Sharp
Solar Stone - Seven Cities, Solarcoaster
Tastexperience - Summersault, Tantrix, Highlander
Salt Tank - Eugina, Dimension (Voices of Reson Mix)

CDs:

Paul Oakenfold - Tranceport, GU: New York
DJ Tiesto - Magik and ISOS series (esp the first one), and
Armin van Buuren - Boundaries of Imagination, Universal Religion, and various CDs after Boundaries

Those i've always considered trance, and are almost always considered trance, and when people don't consider them trance because they aren't super hypnotic, psychadelic, repetitive stuff like some people mention, I just think "what are they then?" cause that sound on those CDs and tracks, are what I've known all of these years (like 7 years since I got into it). To me it's just kind of odd, because I just say "they are epic trance" or "progressive" and that's what they mostly are and it's an established genre. So there is no need to have the debate about what trance is, cause these are all well established as trance, even if they don't all trip you out and put you into one.

^ some good sungs there

quote:

Originally posted by Spirit5 So there is no need to have the debate about what trance is, cause these are all well established as trance, even if they don't all trip you out and put you into one.

Yeah. When you boil down to it, there's really three kinds of trance:

Hypnotic dance music
Psychedelic dance music
Euphoric dance music

And vocals can be used in any of these if it serves the purpose of those adjectives. When the vocals no longer do though, it starts to take on elements of euro dance.

quote:

Originally posted by CrazedOut I've noticed a lot more vocal songs popping up, and I don't mind, I love vocals (male or female) and my current favorite happens to be... DJ Tiesto - Everything ft. Jes

+10000000 beautiful track..

i'm actually more into vocal trance that trance o.o

my favourites

Andain - Beautiful Things

Elsa Hill - No Need To Come Back

DJ Tiesto ft Jes - Everything

Grayarea Ft Erik Shepard - Gravity

Way Out West - Mindcircus

Luminary - Amsterdam

Luminary - My world

BT - The Force Of Gravity

James Holden - Nothing

Way Out West - Don't Forget Me (Guy Ehmetores mix)

Late Night Alumni - Empty Streets

Jes - Like A Waterfall

Qakesound - Elektro

Electro Pompt - Beside Me (Gothek Remix)

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