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-- Why Do Men Stupefy Themselves?
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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles For that matter, what is "Nature?"

pulling a 17 inch long pubic hair out of your teeth from that weird chick you met during your peyote adventure at the nudist colony.

Yikes!

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Originally posted by Subey Dear Psy-T Arbiter is no where to be found, I hope you can find a place in your heart to accept me as your proxy mentor in this time of dire need!

lol

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Originally posted by Subey While I do not believe that AlphaStarred has the highest ground (i.e. the perspective which sees the greater truth amongst those being proffered here), in order to begin illuminating that fact I think you must start by acknowledging that there is a correlation between alcohol consumption and bad behaviour amongst some members of the general public.

i do acknowledge the correlation, i just don't believe it is relevant to the thesis presented, as should be evident by my retorts.

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Originally posted by all-nite-freak pulling a 17 inch long pubic hair out of your teeth from that weird chick you met during your peyote adventure at the nudist colony.

been there, done that

ok, it wasn't 17 inches, but it was fucking long

This generalises people WAY too much.

He fails to mention that smoking was widely accepted only a couple of decades ago, so how the hell are we all meant to shun smoking as a society if those people are still here and will be here for decades to come? No one knew it was harmful before and just because we know now, how does he expect everyone to just give it up?
People start smoking:
*Because it's cool
*Peer pressure
*To calm their nerves

Any of these are acceptable explanations and there are certainly more. Humans are complex people and just because something is harmful, doesn't mean that everyone will stop doing it.

As for saying that all people drink alcohol to escape or because of psychological traumas/problems/whatever (can't be bothered quoting ), that is completely wrong.

I drink (like many other people) because it relaxes me and allows a flowing conversation between friends or strangers. It allows people to meld with others more easily or faster. It's like a catalyst.

Yes, some people do it to escape too. We already know that.

He's got some good points in there but falls well short of actually explaining why he thinks this or where he gets his facts from.

Oh and "could sober people do these things?" Err...yes, or is he living in some fantasy fairy world where problems only arise from alcohol consumption?

EDIT - Also, ease up on the "dictionary text". It just makes you look like some pompus guy who's trying to elevate his arguments above others by using language which most people need to read through twice.

This isn't Shakespeare or a classical english teacher seminar.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles "People do drugs to distract themselves from their immoral lives."

you just saved me 10 minutes! I owe you one.

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Originally posted by Psy-T tostoy's answer is unsatisfactory, and if it is in truth a rhetorical question (i granted him the benefit of the doubt), it is a fallacious one.

Well, I should think you'd concede that your answer was just a bit more unsatisfactory than Tolstoy's, for it simply recapitulated the general answer Tolstoy concluded from the populace (yourself included), ergo yours considered highly more fallacious.

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and while we're on the subject of "liking" things, it's a shame you didn't indulge my idea of pleasure being the highest driving force, seeing as the main excuse tolstoy uses to go off on his search for driving forces is his lack of respect for the 'mearly' pleasant.

It's hardly a shame, for I ultimately do indeed countenance your idea of pleasure being perhaps the main impetus for inebriation/smoking. I must, because I enjoy a bit of smoking and drinking myself, the former especially for it's own sake and to listen to music on it.

And yes, I may agree with your latter statement regarding Tolstoy's lack of respect for the plesantness it induces, but regarding drinking/smoking in public, I agree with him that it serves more than merely for the sake of pleasure.

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stop wasting the air, the land you're sitting on, and your thoughts. ...and you suppose correctly you are almost undoutedly sitting on 'corpses' of various organisms you've killed, most of which are vital to your health.

That's ludicrous reductionism and you know it! Of course we are always wasting away, and are always thinking but that doesn't mean the thoughts are going to waste. And surely Tolstoy was hardly a reductionist, he was more romantic than that.

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred Well, I should think you'd concede that your answer was just a bit more unsatisfactory than Tolstoy's, for it simply recapitulated the general answer Tolstoy concluded from the populace (yourself included), ergo yours considered highly more fallacious.

i thought i already demonstrated the differences implicit in the details; the overly general "because i like it" is hardly an answer to the question "why do you partake in activity X?" in that that in almost all circumstances it begs the question "why do you like it?", therefore i do not accept tolstoy's answer as my own.

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred That's ludicrous reductionism and you know it! Of course we are always wasting away, and are always thinking but that doesn't mean the thoughts are going to waste. And surely Tolstoy was hardly a reductionist, he was more romantic than that.

but the declaration that every activity may harm has deeper implications than that, no matter how reductionistic it may be: it means that tolstoy is drawing an arbitrary line between the "excusable" and the non-"excusable", a line i much rather draw without his help, seeing as his logic doesn't persuade me.

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Originally posted by Psy-T ...in almost all circumstances it begs the question "why do you like it?", therefore i do not accept tolstoy's answer as my own.

It surely does, but your answer was nevertheless the same as the one Tolstoy derived. If you compare it word by word it's nearly verbatim.

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but the declaration that every activity may harm has deeper implications than that, no matter how reductionistic it may be: it means that tolstoy is drawing an arbitrary line between the "excusable" and the non-"excusable", a line i much rather draw without his help, seeing as his logic doesn't persuade me.

I don't think there is any deeper implication in the notion that standing on the shore of the ocean and contemplating the sky is a harmful activity if it's not for reductionism and philosophical truism!
And I don't necessarily think Tolstoy was attempting to persuade people not to do something as much as he was expounding upon his meditations of the reason why people do it. Undoubtedly I do not wholeheartedly agree with him, for as aforesaid, I do agree with you that things may be done for the sake of gratifying oneself, especially smoking, which I shall do shortly, with the accompaniment of some lovely music.

I very much agree with this statement and can attest to it: "When do lads begin to smoke? Usually when they lose their childish innocence."

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Originally posted by Psy-T been there, done that ok, it wasn't 17 inches, but it was fucking long

i thought it was linguini until i noticed that that wasn't alfredo sauce

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred It surely does, but your answer was nevertheless the same as the one Tolstoy derived. If you compare it word by word it's nearly verbatim.

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Originally posted by Psy-T i drink because i enjoy the taste, if i'd get inebriated by alcohol, i might enjoy that as well. i smoke because i enjoy the flavour of the smoke and the quasi-feeling of the smoke. not to while away the time.

Ask anyone why he began drinking wine and why he now drinks it. He will reply, �Oh, I like it, and everybody drinks,� and he may add, �it cheers me up.� Some�those who have never once taken the trouble to consider whether they do well or ill to drink wine�may add that wine is good for the health and adds to one's strength; that is to say, will make a statement long since proved baseless.

if this looks to you as a nearly verbatim repetition of text, you need glasses.

i wouldnt really say tobacco clouds judgement...

thats rather effed if you think that.


weed/alc/any # of other drugs might, however

i don't need to stupify myself, i'm naturally stupid.

my bmx won't move unless i breathe into the breathalyzer

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T [quote] i drink because i enjoy the taste, if i'd get inebriated by alcohol, i might enjoy that as well.

Which basically means because you enjoy it, which basically means "Oh, I like it..." Is that not so? Oh, and I prefer contact lenses which I wear at the moment. And now I'm off to toke 'because I enjoy it,' in short.

The basis for Tolstoy's position is, "We should follow our conscience, and here is a list of things which are preventing us from doing that"

But Tolstoy doesn't understand what it means to be human. What it means is alluded to on the bumper of the car in front of you.

Looking at that bumper you will see the following symbol ><> (that's a fish :P)

What the fish symbolizes, is the recognition that "The one that got away" has as much value as "the one that didn't", the more that you can appreciate that truth, then the more in tune with nature of the universe you will be.

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred Which basically means because you enjoy it, which basically means "Oh, I like it..." Is that not so? Oh, and I prefer contact lenses which I wear at the moment. And now I'm off to toke 'because I enjoy it,' in short.

are you trying to irritate me?

i already showed how that simplification is fallacious, at best you can simplify it to "i enjoy it and this is why i enjoy it:...".

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Originally posted by Subey What the fish symbolizes, is the recognition that "The one that got away" has as much value as "the one that didn't"...

I'm infinitely obliged to you, you that I can only attribute to a fantastic queen, with remarkable, purple hair. That is sincere poetry in my eyes and (judging (in retrospect) by the sincere smile hovering about my face. Thank you, and thank you once more. To taste there is no dispute.

Psy-T, I don't maintain that Tolstoy is altogether in the right, but rather take an interest to his argument. In regards to his theory based on conscience per se, I've a similar point of view on a number of things. With your first post, which was as sparing of words as can be, galled me to core because they were devoid of a single point of view, of which you had finally posted later. I wouldn't have been as galled and inclined to argue as much, then.

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Originally posted by Psy-T are you trying to irritate me?

Not particularly, are you trying to imply something here? I'll tell you another thing, I'm certainly not trying to please anyone here. Hope that helps.

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Originally posted by AlphaStarred Not particularly, are you trying to imply something here? I'll tell you another thing, I'm certainly not trying to please anyone here. Hope that helps.

could i interest you in a homoerotic hug?

It's funny that Hitler was a animal loving, vegetarian eating, non-smoking tyrant.

quote:

Originally posted by Psy-T could i interest you in a homoerotic hug?

If there's a buxom woman involved in the middle, I'll place my arms around you with even more affection.

Re: Why Do Men Stupefy Themselves?

quote:

Originally posted by AlphaStarred "To doubt this is impossible; everyone knows it. But a need to deceive oneself arises. People are not as anxious that consciousness should work correctly as they are that it should seem to them that what they are doing is right, and they deliberately make use of substances that disturb the proper working of their consciousness." "People drink and smoke, not casually, not from dullness, not to cheer themselves up, not because it is pleasant, but in order to drown the voice of conscience in themselves." "Thanks to self-stupefaction...life does not accord with conscience, so conscience is made to bend to life."

I think Tolstoy is fundamentally wrong. It almost seems as if before he wrote the essay, or even before he arrived at any sort of opinion on the matter, he already had an idea of the nature of the justification he would like to have. In this way his philosophy on the matter is saturated with artistic bias.

After all, what would be a more "beautiful", or in essence artistic explanation of why people drink than the notion in connection with consciense. This is a typical pattern of the tasteless philosophical argument that has cursed philosophy throughout its existence.

The notion of concience is so far removed from the reasons for smoking, drinking, and such it seems absurd to say that any biological and even psychological processes are even remotely governed by it.

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Originally posted by Krypton It's funny that Hitler was a animal loving, vegetarian eating, non-smoking tyrant.

He did enjoy amphetamines however.

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Originally posted by tranceDJ He did enjoy amphetamines however.

Dr. Morell

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