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You don't need a keyboard to compose melodies. For hundreds of years, composers created full orchestral suites with nothing but a leaky fountain pen and some staff paper. If you understand the theory, then you already know how something is going to sound before you "play" it.

Keyboards are great for improvising and I don't think I'd want to try to produce without one at this point, but then again I'm trying to produce funkier tracks these days and have much less solid knowledge in that area.

I don't generally post old-ass tracks - this one's from 2005, the mixing is rather shitty and the 2-minute intro is lame, but I think it should serve quite well to debunk the "keyboard required" argument (I produced it long before I had a keyboard):

Flashback

I don't expect anybody to be impressed by that, but I'd love to hear anyone try to say that it has no melody or a poorly-written melody.

Even today, almost all my percussion is sequenced, not recorded. Maybe if I had a drum pad I'd record it, but honestly, I've got enough gear for the moment.

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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery Congratulations, you managed to listen to the one track I've made without melody. Keyboard isn't necessary. Handy and useful - yes, necessary - no.

Agreed - keyboard is definitely not necessary, although it does seem to make the production process for untalented people like meyself slightly more efficient. I would know since I've tried both, haha.

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Originally posted by DigiNut [FONT=Tahoma][COLOR=#99CCEE]You don't need a keyboard to compose melodies. For hundreds of years, composers created full orchestral suites with nothing but a leaky fountain pen and some staff paper. If you understand the theory, then you already know how something is going to sound before you "play" it.

The piano has always been elemental to composition, but I do know that Beethoven could create the frameworks of movements in his head.

Beyond the whole sequences of sounds, I think it's the masterful layering of instrumentation that is brilliant in classical works. Unless one is a genius like Beethoven was, who could compose while deaf, this is impossible for most people. I start my songs with a concept of what I want to do, but certainly not a blueprint like Beethoven

For me, using a keyboard to feel out melodies is much more natural than drawing notes on a screen. But again, to each his own.

quote:

Originally posted by Rhythm The piano has always been elemental to composition, but I do know that Beethoven could create the frameworks of movements in his head. Beyond the whole sequences of sounds, I think it's the masterful layering of instrumentation that is brilliant in classical works. Unless one is a genius like Beethoven was, who could compose while deaf, this is impossible for most people. I start my songs with a concept of what I want to do, but certainly not a blueprint like Beethoven For me, using a keyboard to feel out melodies is much more natural than drawing notes on a screen. But again, to each his own.

Yeah to each his own, I agree, but I think I should point out a few things, first that Beethoven was deaf, second, that I don't like Beethoven and would never want to sound like him. Actually, I don't like most classical music, I find it soulless and boring, like a lot of trance these days. There are a few distinct exceptions, which I love. So all these people talking about the genius of Beethoven isn't very convincing to me, which isn't to say its wrong, just not very convincing to me.

I guess this whole thing's just about how people like to compose and what style of music they like. I like really big chords and melodies, I was a pianist and I play a handful of other instruments to boot. So I come at things from that point of view to start. As opposed to some others, who either make music which is not at all centred on melody or make it in a non traditional way because they learnt to play a sequencer before they learnt to play a conventional instrument.

My main question about how your going to get results out of a sequencer without a keyboard is, how on earth are you going to get adequate detail? If you program at a 16th triplets level, you'll be there all day! When I play keyboard I often play at this level (or 32nds), so programming at say, a 16th level is going to sound robotic etc. This is one reason I often find it helpful to get a drum line out on a keyboard rather than drawing it.

Diginut, I really like this track of yours, and the melody is great, but you can really tell its done in a sequencer I think, although it sounds great, it doesn't have an organic feel like you need a piano for sometimes. Maybe not all the time, but definitely for some things. So it still doesn't prove that you don't need a piano at all, but maybe not for some things, yes, I concede.

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i do and i make some trance. tho i suck at melodies but it has nothing to do with midikeyboard or not, beacuse i bought one a year ago, and since then i have not made any melodies at all. it doesnt work for me, im not a pianist. and ALOT make trance without a midikeyboard, they rather draw a chord and adds an arpegiator lol.

Yes, you suck at melodies, you only make "some" trance, you're not a pianist and you use arps to make your music. That's almost the definition of what people whinged about when this scene started, "the computers make the music for them". Sorry again, now I'm being an arse, but I hate arpegiated stuff when people just let it run. I make arps on the keyboard myself, because I think it gives stuff a more organic and interesting sound, as well as allowing more variation and improvisation. And OF COURSE you don't need a keyboard because you "suck at melody" in the first place! So how would you use it??

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i can see you hammer that midikeyboard fast as hell to make hihats.

Yes, I'm like a speeding bullet Have you never noticed a little thing called a tempo control? Slow it down, record, speed it up, voila. Also works for arps. I was probably a bit strong on saying you MUST have a keyboard for beats, but I find it infinitely helpful, I wouldn't have been able to work out half my beats if it wasn't for that. But I do often use the piano roll for this as well. Thanks for leaving my spelling mistakes in btw...

quote:

You don't need a keyboard to compose melodies. For hundreds of years, composers created full orchestral suites with nothing but a leaky fountain pen and some staff paper. If you understand the theory, then you already know how something is going to sound before you "play" it.

Like I said, I can't stand much classical music, because it seems soulless to me, almost like the person writing didn't (or couldn't) hear what they were making

I could have picked quotes from half the posts here to pick on, its really nothing personal to anyone in here, I just disagree is all, I think that the rot sets in in most music when people stop writing it on instruments and start doing it "in their heads"/ in a sequencer. Sorry for the long post too, but I had a lot of ranting to do.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Diginut, I really like this track of yours, and the melody is great, but you can really tell its done in a sequencer I think, although it sounds great, it doesn't have an organic feel like you need a piano for sometimes.

While that's completely true, it's not mechanical because I didn't have a keyboard, it's mechanical because it was made while I was still new to producing and didn't really know how to humanize well. Besides, we're no longer talking about composition and melodies anymore, we're talking about recording and execution, which is an entirely different ballgame and not the substance of my original post at all.

To compose, you do not need a keyboard; most production, especially trance, is supposed to sound mechanical anyway. If you want to make organic and humanized sounds, then yes, it's going to be a whole lot easier if you record it live, using a keyboard or some other MIDI instrument. Of course, if you had said that instead, you would have had a lot less blowback on it.

As for your comment that classical music sounds soulless and boring, you're certainly entitled to your opinion; I just wonder what you're comparing to. Surely not trance! Jazz, funk, blues maybe?

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut While that's completely true, it's not mechanical because I didn't have a keyboard, it's mechanical because it was made while I was still new to producing and didn't really know how to humanize well. Besides, we're no longer talking about composition and melodies anymore, we're talking about recording and execution, which is an entirely different ballgame and not the substance of my original post at all. To compose, you do not need a keyboard; most production, especially trance, is supposed to sound mechanical anyway. If you want to make organic and humanized sounds, then yes, it's going to be a whole lot easier if you record it live, using a keyboard or some other MIDI instrument. Of course, if you had said that instead, you would have had a lot less blowback on it. As for your comment that classical music sounds soulless and boring, you're certainly entitled to your opinion; I just wonder what you're comparing to. Surely not trance! Jazz, funk, blues maybe?

Yeah I'm comparing to blues and rock etc. but definately some trance as well, to me, its not just a matter of execution to use a piano or midi controller, its also a matter of being able to write and hear immediate feedback, rather than writing in a totally abstract sense and then listening back and adjusting. Maybe this works for some people, but not me, like I said a difference in working, I guess I assumed that everyone worked like me!

Firstly, and most importantly learn music theory... at the very least, learn your basics. You may not use theory in your productions but it will change the way you think and hear music. Trust me.

I also agree with DigiNut and a few others out there: you don't need ANY gear. If you know how to play piano, then maybe a midi keyboard will help. If you don't, then don't bother. Some of the biggest producers out there are all software.

I encourage you try to copy other tracks out there as practice. First you emulate. Once you understand all the basic tricks, go on and make some originals.


Cheers.

wow, i thought more people use keyboards. i find mine essential to producing. i use it to record everything, even percs. many times i do have a melody in my head, but when i don't, i load up a VST, loop a section of the track, and play around in the key i want and soon i'll record something i can work with. then of course, go back in piano roll and edit.

it's interesting to see how people have different ways of getting things done.

it seems to me like having a midi keyboard increases efficiency and gives greater potential to the artistic process. i could feel this way because i'm comfortable around a keyboard because i played piano as a child, but...

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Originally posted by Mr.Mystery So that's what's been wrong with my producing all these years...

its more than that... but its a start

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Originally posted by Zombie0729 its more than that... but its a start

Did you have a point of some sort?

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Originally posted by dj_palm quote: Originally posted by kitphillips If you believe you don't need a keyboard chances are your music is crap. Sorrt, but if you want any sort of melody/harmony or even very interesting beats, a keyboard is pretty neccesary. i can see you hammer that midikeyboard fast as hell to make hihats.

i just had myself an eggo rofl

Re: Re: New DJ asking for help

quote:

Originally posted by ******** if I can sort your mail out of the nigerian letter scams I'd likely be willing to write a track or two with you.

FYI, the more your post your email in public webspace, the more chances it gives spam bots to pick it up and use it to spam you

if you're gonna post your email online, post it like this

name(at)yahoo(dot)com


perhaps you won't get so many nigerian email scams that way

Re: Re: Re: New DJ asking for help

quote:

Originally posted by EtherealSL FYI, the more your post your email in public webspace, the more chances it gives spam bots to pick it up and use it to spam you if you're gonna post your email online, post it like this name(at)yahoo(dot)com perhaps you won't get so many nigerian email scams that way

You might need to be even more clever than that. If I were designing a spam-bot, I would have it look for that sort of naming scheme as well, because I know people do that.

Re: Re: Re: Re: New DJ asking for help

quote:

Originally posted by david.michael You might need to be even more clever than that. If I were designing a spam-bot, I would have it look for that sort of naming scheme as well, because I know people do that.

that is true... plenty of people put spaces or periods inbetween each letter of the email as well

Hmmm... I too think that a MIDI keyboard (or any keyboard with MIDI capabilities) is a pretty important part of any music production set-up. To be honest, I've never seen a production studio (mixing studio is another story) in my life WITHOUT a keyboard connected to a sequencer.
Sure I often use a mouse to input notes into my sequencer once I know the melody, but just to get some idea of what something will sound like I can't imagine myself clicking away at the piano roll, that would be extremely inefficient and frustrating to say the least. Also, I often find it a lot faster to play a melody using a keyboard and then quantize it rather than entering it in note by note with a mouse. Of course, for very fast melodies and arpeggios a mouse works great, but I would still use a keyboard to hear what those might sound like.

So yes, a keyboard is not essential, you can certainly produce without one, but I definitely would NOT recommend it. Having a keyboard in front of you just for something as simple as previewing a sound while creating a synth patch makes the production process a lot simpler.

My 2 cents.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New DJ asking for help

quote:

Originally posted by EtherealSL that is true... plenty of people put spaces or periods inbetween each letter of the email as well

Won't work either.

The only really safe way to do it is to put it in an image. Yeah, they can OCR it, but even with their botnets, spammers don't have the resources to OCR every single image on every single web site.

There are some other "clever" ways to obfuscate addresses that usually work. One of them is using JavaScript to put it on the page, since spam bots and harvesters usually don't parse JS. You can also put some obfuscated invisible HTML around it designed to screw up most common e-mail regexes, but it's not much less risky than just posting it straight.

Or you could post an "equation" that only a human would recognize, like "john.[the letter before T]@blah.com". Kind of a pain in the ass for the users though, many of whom tend to be stupid.

Anyway - any free e-mail address (Yahoo, Hotmail, probably Gmail too) will get tons of spam irrespective of any of this. You don't want spam, get a real address. And don't even think about using it for MSN messenger or the like.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New DJ asking for help

quote:

Originally posted by DigiNut Won't work either. The only really safe way to do it is to put it in an image. Yeah, they can OCR it, but even with their botnets, spammers don't have the resources to OCR every single image on every single web site. There are some other "clever" ways to obfuscate addresses that usually work. One of them is using JavaScript to put it on the page, since spam bots and harvesters usually don't parse JS. You can also put some obfuscated invisible HTML around it designed to screw up most common e-mail regexes, but it's not much less risky than just posting it straight. Or you could post an "equation" that only a human would recognize, like "john.[the letter before T]@blah.com". Kind of a pain in the ass for the users though, many of whom tend to be stupid. Anyway - any free e-mail address (Yahoo, Hotmail, probably Gmail too) will get tons of spam irrespective of any of this. You don't want spam, get a real address. And don't even think about using it for MSN messenger or the like.

had no idea... word! i guess your safe bet is to just not put it on publics space

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: New DJ asking for help

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Originally posted by DigiNut Anyway - any free e-mail address (Yahoo, Hotmail, probably Gmail too) will get tons of spam irrespective of any of this. You don't want spam, get a real address. And don't even think about using it for MSN messenger or the like.

That's not true. I get no spam. But then my gmail username is 17 characters long, so they're probably never gonna guess it.

Yeah i have gmail and i have never got spam.

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