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-- Russia blames US in missile row
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| Originally posted by star-traveller ps. Why don't you go eat a hamburger and screw a fat american chick? |
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| Originally posted by emc^2 You're a perfect lap dog of putin's brainwashing system. Oh well... |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium rant rant rant |
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| Originally posted by emc^2 strange... I didn't know your mom was american... |
You suck at come backs. Seriously...it might be better to think it through more or just ignore it.
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium [COLOR=FF7F50] Shut the f up, idiot. You dont know Russia. You only see it from western TV screens. Russia doesnt have the money or the power to destabilize the situation in the world. |
. Last year Russia was #1 in oil production, surpassing everyone. In gas production, Russia has been #1 for number of years. Russia's role in area of energy will continue to increase. Finally, Russia is one of the biggest nuclear nations.| quote: |
| Last time I checked its countries like US and UK that invade others, carpet bomb them and incite all the radical movements. |
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| Russia is not funding Iran. |
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| Its not any different than US selling sophisticated weapons systems to world dictators from China to Pakistan to Indonesia. |
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| The wars in the Middle East are not fought because of Russia. |
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| And 9/11 terrorists were not funded by Russia or whatever you might want to believe. |
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| Iran doesnt have the capability to even have a nuclear reactor at the moment.... think twice before claiming that Iran is developing nuclear weapons or that Russia is giving them nukes. Far from the truth. |
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| Because of idiots like you who are in control of some western countries, there's such strong anti-Russian rhetoric, no wonder why Russia is alarmed and are rebuilding their weapons and borders because they can see the threats from idiots and thin-minded people like you. |
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| Instead of welcoming and helping Russia into the western world, Russia is treated with suspicion, criticized, ignored and its cries for economic and political help in 1990s were ignored. |
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| Instead companies were eagier to make huge profits from Russia's resources, and today these same companies who have made so much money from people's suffering and who have done almost nothing to help Russia politically and economically are whining that their power and control over Russia's resources is being taken away. |
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| Originally posted by star-traveller Miserable punk. |
Way to go Putin! You sure know how to win their hearts and minds. Must have attended training hosted by Bush, Chenney & Rumsfeld.
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Russia has lost all sense of proportion over missile defence Published: June 4 2007 22:24 | Last updated: June 4 2007 22:24 No one else on the world stage today is quite like Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin. The Russian president has become a past master at upstaging international meetings, sowing dissension in the west�s ranks and upping the stakes in an ever more acrimonious contest with the US. The latest example is his outrageous threat, issued just ahead of this week�s G8 summit, to target Europe with Russia�s nuclear arsenal if the US�s fledgling missile defence system is ever placed on European soil. This is also the man who labels himself, with formidable chutzpah, the world�s only �pure democrat� and complains: �After the death of Mahatma Gandhi there�s nobody to talk to.� Mr Putin should beware. His tactical mastery may help him outmanoeuvre the west on a day-to-day basis, but the enduring legacy of his cunning is likely to be a Europe and US that deeply distrust Russia. Take the furious controversy over the missile defence system, a programme that sceptics allege will never work and which even true believers say would have no impact on any state with more than a handful of nuclear weapons. After what it sees as the humiliations of the 1990s, and ahead of an electoral season, Russia is in no mood to accept what it sees as a US foothold in Poland and the Czech Republic. Mr Putin�s lieutenants have brushed aside US offers to co-operate on missile defence. Instead Russia threatens to pull out of two landmark arms control treaties and has made ever more belligerent noises towards the west. Such a course of action is not just out of proportion and wrong; it is also counterproductive. Although Germany�s Social Democrats have criticised the US for its role in the dispute, the German electorate is showing signs of turning against Mr Putin�s bullying behaviour. And while public opinion in Poland and the Czech Republic is against the missile defence bases, largely because of fears provoked by Russia�s threats, the two countries are likely to become more, not less, anti-Russian in feeling. The US could take more steps to defuse the dispute, not least discussing whether it could cap the number of interceptors at the Polish site. But the main responsibility rests with Mr Putin. Everything he has done so far this year has been to make missile defence a zero sum game from which only one side can emerge the winner. That is not the approach of a statesman. It is time for Mr Putin to overcome his country�s resentment of the west and demonstrate that his Russia is a partner, not an old, aggrieved foe. |
For those that read/understand Russian, interesting perspective by russian media:
http://www.vremya.ru/2007/96/4/179603.html
I don't have time to translate it.
Well..if anything, this thread has proved that Russians always fight with each other 
quote: Originally posted by metalgearsolid
Um...are you sure Russia isn't trying to destabilize the world? Last time I checked. The Russian mafia are all Russian spetsnaz Alfa or Vympel. They work for the government. Believe it or not that could be considered destabilizing governments. At least the local governments who have to put up with the "Russian mafia" who are corrupting judges and politicians.
Ummm, mafia and criminals work for the highest bidder and can change sides quite easily. Last time I checked the same Alfa or Vympel have done jack shit to destabilize anything other their own families.
quote: Originally posted by emc^2
Really???? According to putin, russia is one of the leading players in international energy market. (interestingly, Putin worded it as not "market" but "enerty politics".) . Last year Russia was #1 in oil production, surpassing everyone. In gas production, Russia has been #1 for number of years. Russia's role in area of energy will continue to increase. Finally, Russia is one of the biggest nuclear nations.
What does oil production and "player" in energy market have anything to do with how Russia is destabilizing the world? Russia is quite poor. In terms of oil supplies, Russia is not the biggest one. Are you suggesting Russia should jsut give away for free its resources? Will you be the idiot who will look at resources and do nothing? Its money and economics, man, and Russia is doing the right thing by enriching itself by selling the resources that it has every right to. And what it spends it for, well, its not for overthrowing other countries - thats more like US/UK/Israel's job because last time I checked its them who do most of the world's upheaval work and overthrowing governments, throwing money at revolutions, supporting dictators, etc. Russia has many internal problems to deal with, and with little cash to spare, I'll have to label you a conspiracy theorist on this so-called conspiracy that Russian money is used to overthrow the world for Russia's good (and thats why somehow many Soviet former republics are turning anti-Russian??? Get your head checked, quite opposite is happening!!!)
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As per V. Putin. Source: http://newsru.com/russia/04jun2007/srok.html
PUTIN IS NOT GOING TO BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT.PUTIN IS NOT GOING TO BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT.PUTIN IS NOT GOING TO BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT.PUTIN IS NOT GOING TO BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT.PUTIN IS NOT GOING TO BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT.PUTIN IS NOT GOING TO BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT.PUTIN IS NOT GOING TO BE THE NEXT PRESIDENT. OK, have you heard enough?
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Need I point out a log in your eye? Excuse me? Have we forgotten Checnya? How about Georgia? How about attempting to de-stabilize situation in Ukraine, Poland, Estonia, Latvia, and other former soviet block states? Are you high?
Chechnya - you should look and see how USA is doing in Iraq for that matter. Georgia is the one who violated a peace treaty with breakaway Abkhazia and placed its troops there in the uplands. Russia is the peacekeeper, and they managed to stop the bloodshed in the 1990s. They are not doing anything illegal with regards to Georgia, and quite frankly its Georgia who is blackmailing Russia here. Ukraine - US money helped destabilize political situation there - I showed the article to that before - AND THATS RIGHT, American money helped it. And current leader is not pro-Russian, butthead. Poland - NOT on Russia's side either. Estonia, Latvia - waving Nazi flags, abusing war memorials, claiming Holocaust never happened, refusal to give ethnic Russians citizenship and equal rights, etc. etc. etc. AND WHAT DID RUSSIA DO? We didnt fund their election campaigns. We didnt try to overthrow them. We have switched to market prices on energy and resources. Russia has done nothing aggressive, its only Americans and NATO who are continually expanding and aggressing towards these countries by building bases, missile shields, funding these regimes and supporting anti-Russian rhetoric - and for your failure to see all this you are an idiot. Russia has folded so many bases within these rebuplics, while American-backed campaign to occupy and subvert these countries is under way. But thats not a big deal, eh?
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Quite contrary. I can't seem to recall - who is building nuclear reactor in Iran?? Oh wait.. It's Russians. Who's selling weapons to Hugo Chavez? Yup. Russia again. Who's been sending Katyshas and other military equipment to Syria (Hizbolah)? Russia. Who has been selling PRO systems to Iran? Russia again. Who is defending Iran from UN sanctions (because Iran is one of the biggest consumers of russian arms and russian nuclear technology)? Same place.
OH, and when USA is building the same reactors for lets say Israel, Pakistan, India, its OK? USA selling PRO systems to other countries as well .USA IS THE NUMBER ONE WEAPONS MANUFACTURER AND ARMS SELLER IN THE WORLD. They support far worse dictatorships that Russia does. Dont forget that it was US/UK weapons that funded the bloody Saddam Hussein regime in the 1970s/1980s, one of countless examples. And we all know how well that went. Has Iran shown any aggression towards its neighbours? NO. Dont forget, it is USA that countless times interfered with Iran. REMEMBER OPERATION AJAX, butthead? You seriously dont know jack shit. Iran is simply trying to defend itself against countless American attempts to take the country's resources again. And Iran, I REPEAT, Iran IS MANY YEARS AWAY from not only finishing the reactors, but even developing nukes, and nukes that can travel far. So stop making things up that are not even happening right now. Its only speculation at this point, and the fact that Iranians are not paying up their end of the Busher deal might suggest that the project might be actually folded eventually, butthead.
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China? Quite debatable. I have to agree on Pakistan and Indonesia. However, you have to pick your battles and I doubt that turning away Indonesia and Pakistan's business would be in US's best interests of national security, whereas selling russian arms to Hugo does nothing to improve Russian security but de-stabilizes the south american continent.
China ... LOL ,.... check out their human right record. China is a brutal dictatorship that is oppressing provincial centers far worse than Russians did in Chechnya.
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*cough* Afganistan circa '80's? *cough* The direct aftermath of that is unpredictable. Currently, Russia is working like a busy little bee, trying to sell weapons to all the lovely countries in the middle east, quite a few of whom have a BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG hard-on for US and/or Israel.
I REPEAT, Russia is not the only one who is selling weapons to the Middle East and other dictatorships around the world. US is the number one manufacturer and they have dealt with every dictator imaginable on this planet pretty much who is not a communist. And the crimes committed and are being committed by these people is very long ... but not a big deal, eh?
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Hm... there are some theories that have Russian ties and implications reaching FAAAAAAAAAR and WIDE.
There's a reason why they're called theories ... because they lack factual evidence.
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a very plausible and valid excuse. while we're at it, please explain the debacle behind Khodarkovsky (and phenomenon of Roman "the untouchable" Abramovich).
Kodarkovskiy was caught red handed. He is corrupt and its true he did hide away a lot of money in back taxes like many companies in Russia try to do. And he got what was coming after him, there's no denial in that. But western media claims its a political move while they dont deny the evidence, friggin hypocrites.
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Interesting how Russia invited all the western countries to invest into the natural resources/energy sectors in russia, politicians lined their ABYSMALLY DEEP POCKETS with bribes, while they SOLD AWAY YOUR NATURAL RESOURCES. Then, Western companies (and companies like Yukos) came in, fixed the ruins that were left on post-soviet field, invested MILLIONS, created THOUSANDS of jobs, PAID MILLIONS in taxes... Nurtured and raised it to be mature industry and like a typical russian mafia thug, Kremlin stepped in and "re-nationalized" what was created by someone else. Typical bolshevik approach. if you can't do it - bring in someone else, then steal from them and call them "thiefs".
Olny an idiot would invite a foreign person and give them your stuff, especially resources. In early 1990s, in the midst of collapse and poverty, it was so easy for western companies to bribe their way into post-soviet resources control with bribes, crazy sex prostitute drug parties (as illustrated with the BP article I showed), big bribes, political involvement, etc. etc. and so western companies like Shell and BP managed to easily and CHEAP get a hold of a lot of Russian resources. Today these bastards have been caught violating severe environmental violations that THESE VIOLATING COMPANIES DONT DISAGREE, because they did do it, and Russian government used it as an excuse, and quite rightfully to get its resources back. You would do the same if you were ripped off the first time. So stop whining. BP/Shell would have had their licenses easily revoked because they environmental damage was appalling, but Gazprom and Russian government STILL stretched their hand and offered to keep these companies with decent shares (35%) of the Sakhalin deal for their previous work in starting up and investing in the project. And these greedy Shell and BP companies have lot to gain the future. 25% of BP's profits come from Russian resources.
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Of course, russian government is trully interested in protecting people's freedom. That's why all the voice opposition is being intimidated, shut down, assasinated, imprisoned, or "disappeared".
I said this many times over and over again - in Russia many people die and go missing, not only politicians - policemen, taxmen, children, soldiers, bankers, government workers, etc. etc. BUT FOR SOME F-CKING REASON THE JOURNALISTS ARE THE ONES WHO GET ALL THE ATTENTION. WHAT ABOUT RUSSIAN CHILDREN WHO GET BRUTALLY SHOT AND MURDERED??? WHAT ABOUT LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS???? DID GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS ARRANGE THEIR KILLINGS TOO, IN COLD BLOOD? WHAT ABOUT POLICEMEN SHOT 3 TIMES IN THE HEAD???? HUH? Shut the f-ck up, noob, I've seen it. In my city, Sochi, in 1996 a year before I left, a police chief was found shot dead with his driver near his home, and nobody said they say anything. DID GOVERNMENT DO IT? You should do some homework and find out how many former Spetsnaz and special military personnel who lost jobs after Soviet Union collapsed and research what kind of jobs they got into afterwards. And then you'd finally understand things. Maybe then you'll be able to explain to me according to you in the same symmetrical fashion the Russian government's alleged involvement in the execution-style shooting of the top Russian government law enforcement official, Mr. Kozlov who was in charge of making sure banks are properly meeting government standards.
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I feel really sorry for you. If people like you opened their eyes, maybe Russia would be welcome in the world. However, this blind nationalism is pointless and only serves the interest of your totalitarian leaders. I'm not saying US is perfect, far from it - but at least there's a system in place where we can at least try and replace the idiots that don't belong there. IN Russia, this is on track to become a thing of the past. Just look at all the efforts surrounding the ways to circumvent the constitution to extend/modify presidential term. Russian laws are a joke. They are changed on a whim to fit the situation as needed by politicos. That's why there's no respect towards russia and why investing in russian business is such a risky proposition.
Most ordinary Russians in Russia would tell you otherwise. I've seen it all myself with my own eyes in early 1990s how we welcomed democracy, embraced the West, and got nothing but bitter feeling of betrayal, humiliation, and ignorance of our situation. And now that Russia is rebuilding, Russian people are getting their lives back you jealous western hypocrites dare call us such names??? Russia is getting more and more democratic by the year. Instead, western leaders are becoming scared and accusing Russia of bullshit that they cant even prove. You crazy conspiracy theorists.
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and please don't get me started about the way your people are treated. Just look at all the poor, miserable people living out in the boonies without even electricity or running water. Russia - great nation.. right... my a$$..
Get real dude.
You can never understand it. The West never has, and never will care for the Russian people. Only strong leaders like Putin have done anything for the struggling Russian people. Yeltsin was a drunk and he nearly disintegrated a country when Chechnya, Tatarstan, Bashkitstan and other regions literally fell out of control and even refused to allow federal taxmen in their regions. I lived in that era there. I saw it, the misery, the drunk, the sick, the mafia ... and I saw western companies come in and make their profits. While they could care less about Russia or their people and their well-being or future. They only care about money and keeping Russia underfoot. Well, Russians refused. And you want to keep Russia down, and it will not. The stronger the hatred towards Russia will be, the colder the relations will be.
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| Originally posted by aNYthing Way to go Putin! You sure know how to win their hearts and minds. Must have attended training hosted by Bush, Chenney & Rumsfeld. source FT: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/6efb1ae4-12...0b5df10621.html |
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| Originally posted by HardTranceProd Well..if anything, this thread has proved that Russians always fight with each other |
Wait, Mags! Why do you defend Russia all the time? If you lived there you wouldn't have a computer you wouldn't have any opportunity to make a decent living. Be thankful you got out of that sh!t hole. Really the people their are poor and that is not meant to be offensive.
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| Originally posted by metalgearsolid Wait, Mags! Why do you defend Russia all the time? If you lived there you wouldn't have a computer you wouldn't have any opportunity to make a decent living. Be thankful you got out of that sh!t hole. Really the people their are poor and that is not meant to be offensive. |
Quite frankly, the westerners will always blame Russia for violating democracy, human rights, etc. as long as Russia will pose any threat to them economically, militarily or politically. I've seen it myself. How come noone blamed Yeltsin all the time for countless violations like the brutal war in Chechnya, the appalling corruption and mismanagement of the country? The answer: the West was happy that Russia was degrading, happy that western companies had easy access to Russia's resources and cheap, Russia was weak. Human rights and Russia's well-being ... well, who give a flying funk about that then? Now, however, Russia has restored the stability, improved the economy, raised standards of living, rebuilding the country, trying to enter the western markets, trying to join the democratic community - but ALL THAT IT GETS is mostly the brunt of criticism, hate, double standards, mistrust, and lack of co-operation. Even Chinese companies have much easier access to European markets for Christ's sake.
This illustrates again that the West hates Russia. Russians like me want the West to accept them and let them join NATO, EU, WTO, etc - but that can never happen because some countries *cough* are blocking it from happening. Putin sees it. He was quiet about it for the first 5 years of his presidency, kept trying to appeal to the West and companies, but now that he sees that all that was in vain, he started making more speeches criticising US, EU and putting more restrictions on violating companies within Russia because he saw what I saw - an out-of-control West trying to step all over Russia, with complete disregard to the interests and well-being of the Russian people. Putin is no idiot - he sees the cold relations and how USA, NATO and its former neighbours are talking about them. And then he sees the planned bases, missile silos, etc. in those nations. He's no idiot - he knows that its more like they'll be directed against Russia, especially for the time being since Iran's threat is a joke because Iranian nuclear weapons program is light years away. Its an excuse to take over Russia's resources by setting up bases and armies all around it and striking a blow when they least expect it. Just listen to all the anti-Russian rhetoric - heck, its in style to hate Russia all of a sudden, everyone already forgot about Iraq and Afghanistan and NATO. Damn hypocrites.
Magnetonium, you're naive and I have nothing but pity for you and your disillusioned views. Good luck.
p.s. ������� ������� ���������.
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| Originally posted by emc^2 Magnetonium, you're naive and I have nothing but pity for you and your disillusioned views. Good luck. p.s. ������� ������� ���������. |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium Is that all you got to say? Thats your whole argument? Yes, hope dies last. I see progress, I see improvement. I KNOW for a fact that things in Russia are not peachy, not a paradise but gimme a break things are much better in Russia today that before. On most levels. There are simply no other leaders in Russia right now who could steer the country into a better future. The leaders that you cheer for, they are only serving the Western interests. And with that to my mind come Gorbachev and Yeltsin. Under two those retards Russia and Russian people lived under appalling misery, suffering and complete ignorance. Who rebuilt Russian economy? Who got the country back together? Who raised the standards of living? etc. etc. etc. PUTIN DID. Putin has done more good stuff for Russian people than hopeless regimes of Gorbachev and Yeltsin combined. Ask any Russian. At least 70% of them will agree without a doubt. But there's more work to be done. You are the one who is disillusioned. I see the light, the progress, the improvement in Russia. All you see is not good. You are just piss scared of Russia and want Russian people underfoot. You dont understand the situation. You dont care about those people, you only care about how your western companies and other entities can make easy money off Russia and keep the country down. Cause Yeltsin and Gorbachev were pretty dam good at that. |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium Is that all you got to say? |
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| Originally posted by metalgearsolid Putin hasn't raised the standard of living. Check the HDI for year. Russia HAS BEEN GOING DOWN UNDER PUTIN for the past couple of years. and trust me there is nothing good to see outside of Moscow and St. Petersburg. No leader can make Russia into a peachy paradise. And what the hell is with the whole western crap? I mean come on. You live in the west and if you didn't. You would be dirt poor like most Russians'. You wouldn't have a computer and you wouldn't even have heating(modern) in your home. Nobody cares about Russia. I don't see whose holding it down other than the Russians. The Russians just like to blame the west for their pathetic existance. |
Eh so maybe we will finally get into a real war. Humans have overstayed their welcome anyway.
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| Originally posted by Zild Eh so maybe we will finally get into a real war. Humans have overstayed their welcome anyway. |
I haven't kept up too much on this topic, but from what appears to have come out of the meeting yesterday, Putin apparently outflanked the shit out of Bush:
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| Putin offers radar site in Azerbaijan By TERENCE HUNT, AP White House Correspondent Thu Jun 7, 7:18 PM ET ROSTOCK, Germany - Vladimir Putin, bitterly opposed to a U.S. missile shield in Europe, presented President Bush with a surprise counterproposal Thursday built around a Soviet-era radar system in Azerbaijan rather than new defenses in Poland and the Czech Republic. Bush said it was an interesting suggestion and promised to consider it. Putin's formula would force a major rethinking of U.S. plans for defending Europe against attack from hostile regimes such as Iran or North Korea. While outright acceptance of Putin's idea appeared doubtful, the White House seemed eager to avoid further inflaming tensions by giving it short shrift. The Russian president said he would abandon his threat to retarget missiles on Europe � if Bush accepted the Kremlin's missile-defense proposal."This is a serious issue and we want to make sure that we all understand each other's positions very clearly," Bush said after an hour-long meeting with Putin. Speaking through a translator, Putin said he was "satisfied with the spirit of openness" from Bush. With U.S.-Russian relations at a post-Cold War low, the two leaders sought a fresh start on the sidelines of the annual summit of industrialized nations. Tensions were raised in recent days by Bush's accusations that Putin was backsliding on democracy, and by Putin's charges that Bush was starting a new arms race with missile defenses. At the summit, Bush and Putin joined other world leaders in a compromise on a plan to attack global warming. They agreed to seek substantial reductions in greenhouse gas emissions but stopped short of committing themselves to specific targets, apparently because of U.S. opposition. U.S. officials scrambled to react to Putin's proposal, huddling hurriedly before trying to explain it to the press. If nothing else, the Russian president captured global attention with a move that appeared intended to calm jitters in Europe. Even if the White House eventually rejects his idea, Putin can claim he made a stab at compromise and can blame Bush for any adverse consequences. While they tried to present a cordial picture, Bush and Putin could not even agree on their differences. Bush said Putin "is concerned that the missile defense system is not an act that a friend would do." Putin made a point of correcting Bush. "I have not said that friends do not act in this way," the Russian leader said. The main point of contention is a U.S. anti-missile program that envisions a radar screen in the Czech Republic to detect incoming rockets and 10 interceptors based in Poland to shoot them down. Unhappy about NATO's expansion to Russia's border, the Kremlin is suspicious about the U.S. putting rockets in former Soviet republics. Putin warned Bush not to proceed with building the system as planned while negotiations with Moscow take place. "We hope these consultations will not serve as cover for some unilateral action," Putin said. The two presidents will meet again July 1-2 at the Bush family compound in Kennebunkport, Maine. Putin's counterproposal would use an aging radar installation at Gabala in northern Azerbaijan, a central Asian country bordering the Caspian Sea, to watch for missile threats. Rather than build interceptor rockets in Poland, Putin suggested using missiles on U.S. Aegis cruisers to shoot down any threat, according to Steve Hadley, Bush's national security adviser. Hadley said Putin took the position that the deployment of interceptors was premature, that the weapons they would be designed to destroy have not emerged. "So, his (Putin's) view is, radar cooperation is fine; the decision about deploying interceptors is premature," Hadley said. "And once these capabilities emerge in Iran or any other state, there will be time to develop and deploy interceptors." Hadley expressed skepticism about that approach. "Our concern, of course, is that in order to have defensive systems in place, it takes time," he said. "These are long lead-time items, and it would take time to get them deployed." Further, he said "we've been surprised many times" that countries have built long-range missiles faster than the U.S. intelligence community expected. Rick Lehner, a spokesman for the Pentagon's Missile Defense Agency, noted that the radar at the Russian facility is an early warning system whereas the U.S. is using a more powerful system, called X-band. Putin told Bush he had talked about his proposal with Azerbaijan's president, Ilham Aliev, and that he was amenable to the idea, Hadley said. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said, "This offer shows once again that President Putin is ready to find consensus and he's ready to find solutions, not by confronting, not by threatening anyone � well, he's never done that, actually � but by working together." Hadley said, "I think President Putin wanted to de-escalate the tensions a little bit on this issue, and I think it was a useful thing that he did." Azerbaijan has exchanged opinions on missile defense in talks with Russia and the United States, and Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov discussed the issue with his Azerbaijani counterpart Elmar Mammadyarov during an official visit to Baku last week, Azerbaijani Deputy Foreign Minister Araz Azimov said, according to Russia's RIA-Novosti news agency. Rasim Musabeyov, an independent political analyst in Azerbaijan, said U.S. involvement would anger Iran and strain Azerbaijan's relations with Tehran, but added that support from Washington and Moscow could counterbalance that effect. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070607/ap_on_re_eu/bush |
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| Originally posted by MisterOpus1 I haven't kept up too much on this topic, but from what appears to have come out of the meeting yesterday, Putin apparently outflanked the shit out of Bush: I think Putin did more than de-escalate the tensions - Putin outmaneuvered the White House, BAD. Don't get me wrong, the guy's no saint, and he's got a lovely laundry list of objectionable actions over the years. But this move clearly puts Bush's in a situation where he will either have to abandon his plan altogether or explicitly admit that his goal was not what he originally stated (defending against the nonexistent missile threat from Iran). |
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Calling Washington's Bluff Russian diplomacy can be rough, and for some of its neighbours, it can be a contradiction in terms. But in an age where the international agenda has been set by the occupant of the White House and a relatively small clique of advisers around him, it is refreshing to see multilateralism rear its head again, even if it is in the heavily guarded confines of the G8 summit. It is clear that Vladimir Putin's proposal to conscript a Russian-controlled radar station in Azerbaijan for the purpose of George Bush's missile defence shield, wrongfooted the US delegation. Stephen Hadley, the US national security adviser had to admit that it was a "bold proposal". It is more than that. It calls Washington's bluff about which rogue state - Iran or Russia - the missile defence system is really pointed at. It separates America's domestic defence needs from the issue of deploying frontline systems in eastern Europe, which is a neuralgic one not only for Moscow, but for public opinion in Poland and the Czech Republic. It takes Mr Bush's offer of "participation" in the missile defence shield and returns it in kind. Russia is offering to "integrate" one of the most powerful radars in the world, the Qabala station in the north of Azerbaijan, into the US system. Of the two elements of the proposed missile defence system, Russian experts were always more concerned about the radar station in the Czech Republic than they were about the missiles in Poland. The missiles have no warheads and are designed to destroy the rogue state's missile by kinetic impact. If it works, and it is not certain that it does, the idea is to hit a bullet with a bullet. The radar that detects the launch of the enemy missile and directs the counter missile to its target is known as an "attack" radar and has a range long enough to cover Russia as well as Iran. Hence the Russians' reluctance to accept Washington's assurances that the system is not aimed at them. Nato secretary-general Jaap de Hoop Sheffer said today that Qabala was too close to Iran to be of any use, and the Pentagon is probably going to take the same view. But Mr Putin's diplomatic counter-strike could well widen the gap between Europe and America on what Europeans have always treated more sceptically as a pet neo-conservative project. The threat to re-direct Russian missiles to European targets still exists and, for Europe, doubts must grow about the political and military cost of putting the so-called shield in place if no agreement is achieved with Russia. Washington left the ABM (Anti-Ballistic Missile) Treaty, which had been in force for 30 years, so that it could develop its missile defence system. It argued that the ABM Treaty was outdated. It was imperfect but it was a treaty and, as such, part of a tissue of agreements which now threatens to unravel. In the rapidly materialising reality of a "cold peace", Moscow has signalled its unhappiness with two treaties which restrict the number and deployment of intermediate nuclear missiles and conventional weapons. It is in no-one's interests, certainly not Poland's, that these treaties go the way of all flesh. Russia's argument - whether it is right or not - that the missile defence shield will destroy the strategic balance of forces in Europe could thus become a self-fulfilling prophecy. We may not like the way Russia is run. We may not like the way Russia is defending its national interests. We may not agree with what it defines as its national interest. But we can no longer act as if it does not have one. Is this appeasement? No, its reality. |
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| Originally posted by HardTranceProd That's exactly right. In fact: : http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk...tons_bluff.html Russians have always been good at chess, if you know what I mean |
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