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-- UK to expel 4 Russian diplomats
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium OK, so lets say British do have the proof, then they should then try to prosecute Lugovoi in Russia, which they HAVE ALREADY REFUSED TO DO. So that doesnt leave us with much, does it? |
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| Russian Constitution, clearly specifies that no Russian national can be extradited abroad. Just like UK's. Just like the European Convention specifies. Its pretty dam obvious and old law. UK knows it. But they are playing a political game here. |
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| Article 63 of the Russian Constitution: The extradition of persons persecuted for their political views or any actions (or inaction), which are not qualified as criminal by the law of the Russian Federation, to other states shall not be allowed in the Russian Federation |
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| If they had the clear evidence, then they would have "leaked" it to the media already, they're not talking about, so its pretty dam weak. Thats why they refuse to go to court in Russia. |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium No, its a tactic called "F*ck you, Russian government" while the Russian government has nothing to do here. Constitution is Constitution that Putin SWORE to protect, and this is merely a businessman-to-businessman dispute that should have been handled in a smaller court with lesser media frenzy, but we all know who started the frenzy here and the point of it ... and somehow involved the Russian government, too ... you know that the Russian government cant extradite its citizens, WHY OH WHY THEN DO YOU create this political havoc? Seriously, are you that naive to believe that it will work? |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley See my post above re: Russian extradition that makes your quote above sound rather amusing |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium But then the British refuse to extradite Berezovky in the first place (who is not a British national), and expect Russia to break its own laws and extradite Lugovoi? Come on, man, you're not that naive ... plus Russia didnt expell British diplomats, and didnt go around UN and EU telling them to force UK to extradite Berezovsky now, did they? Russia is much smarter, but UK just cant accept the laws and to be bossy and intimidating they expect to be granted what they want, so they're pushing with this propaganda campaign to make Russia an enemy. |
I should also point out that Berezovsky has been warned by the British government that his status as a political refugee will be re-evaluated should he keep making inflammatory statements against the Russian government, and also faced a police investigation following his comments that he was funding a coup against Putin
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| Originally posted by George Smiley A few points: There is no campaign to make Russia an enemy, why would there be? Berezovsky was granted political asylum in the UK, meaning under UK law it is illegal to extradite him Lugovoi is wanted in the UK for murder, and unless murder is not a crime in Russia then it is perfectly legal for Russia to extradite him |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley I should also point out that Berezovsky has been warned by the British government that his status as a political refugee will be re-evaluated should he keep making inflammatory statements against the Russian government, and also faced a police investigation following his comments that he was funding a coup against Putin |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium To tell you the truth, under the European Convention that Russia also signed, if UK will present substantial evidence, then Lugovoi can be tried in UK. I have nothing against that if it was the case. |
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| A swap of Berezovsky for Lugovoi is pretty reasonable |
quote: Originally posted by George Smiley
Yes but you're not the President of Russia, Putin is, and he does not want an ex-KGB operative in prison in the UK that is why Russia will not extradite Lugovoi
At one point there were hundreds of thousands of KGB people ... I would be very surprised if there's not at least a few in Western jails right about now ...
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Erm no it's not. I have told you time and time again it is ILLEGAL for the UK to extradite someone who has been granted political asylum. Whereas Lugovoi is wanted for murder, nothing political, so no, it is not "reasonable"
And once again I would like to let you know that Russian laws also forbids extradition of its citizens ... come on, we're going in circles, you've exhausted your point already, try something else. And it is political, because British government and lawmakers are heavily all over this case. Thats political. Dont need to be a scientist to figure that one out - this case is political. Because if it was just murder, we would probably find out luckily about in corner of the last page of the newspaper. But when your leaders and lawmakers all talk about it, thats political ... come on, stop going in circles ... you've exhausted your point just give it up. Russia's not the enemy here, and we're not agitating here, its UK thats threatening Russia by issuing demands, ultimatums, kicking out diplomats ... thats so childish. And now they pass a law making it more difficult for Russian government officials to travel to UK. What a bunch of sissies ...
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium And once again I would like to let you know that Russian laws also forbids extradition of its citizens ... come on, we're going in circles, you've exhausted your point already, try something else. And it is political, because British government and lawmakers are heavily all over this case. Thats political. Dont need to be a scientist to figure that one out - this case is political. Because if it was just murder, we would probably find out luckily about in corner of the last page of the newspaper. But when your leaders and lawmakers all talk about it, thats political ... come on, stop going in circles ... you've exhausted your point just give it up. Russia's not the enemy here, and we're not agitating here, its UK thats threatening Russia by issuing demands, ultimatums, kicking out diplomats ... thats so childish. And now they pass a law making it more difficult for Russian government officials to travel to UK. What a bunch of sissies ... |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley You clearly do not know what "political" means in this context. The CRIME committed must be political for extradition to not apply. Examples of a political crime are if someone is a member of a banned political party. Or if a crime committed in one country is not recognised by another. For example, it is not legal to extradite someone from the UK to Germany for denying the Holocaust because that is not against the law in the UK. Murder, however, is illegal in every country (as far as I'm aware) and is NOT a political crime. You cannot say Lugovoi cannot be extradited to the UK because it is "political" because it clearly is not... |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium It was made a political case, which is my point |
As you seem to be having difficulty understanding the information in these threads, I thought I'd summerise the main points here as not to complicate things:
1. Russian law (represented by the Constitution and the European Convention on Extradition) allows for extradition but not for political crimes - fact
2. Lugovoi is not wanted for a political crime - fact
3. Murder is not a political crime - fact
4. There are no Russian legal barriers for the extradition of Lugovoi - fact
5. The UK's Crown Prosecution Service has enough evidence to charge Lugovoi with murder - fact
6. The EU and UN say Russian law cannot be trusted (which is why the UK will not allow Lugovoi to be tried under Russian law because they are likely to let him go free) - fact
7. The UK has similar extradition laws to Russia, it can extradite people but not for political crimes or where the person may face torture or the death penalty - fact
8. Berezovsky has been granted political asylum which means the UK believe that he will be tried for political crimes in Russia - fact
9. It is against UK law, European law to extradite someone of Berezovsky's status (it would even be illegal under Russian law!) - fact
The above 9 points are all facts. They are not up for discussion. Please read through them and understand them before you comment further on this situation because it has become clear that you do not have enough knowledge of the subjects to engage in a debate about them - this is something that has become apparent in other threads as well - you seem to ignore facts at will when it comes to defending Russia, which is something you need to get out of the habit of doing otherwise anything you say in future will just be irrelevant...
Hahahaha, oh Magnetonium. You're such a Virgin!
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium ARMY .... COMMAND .... WORLD STAGE ... pffft, whats wrong with you, people? What about other bigger oil and natural resource corporations like Shell and Exxon Mobil ... dont they have ARMIES, COMMAND, WORLD STAGE, CONTROL, etc BIGGER than that of Russian Gazprom? Dont they have more illegal actions going on in volative places like Middle East? How about being anti-corporate with them, too? How about it, huh? How about dropping your double standard bullshit and coming together with your senses and respecting and treating equal all world's economies and companies who are trying to do what YOUR country's oil and gas companies are trying to do! Just because Gazprom has more gas because nature's luck, there's no need to get jealous and treat ugly because some companies like Shell, Exxon use political and military applications to SEIZE OTHER COUNTRIES' oil and gas ... but thats OK, isnt it? Double standards my ass! |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley You really don't understand do you? The crime has to be political. Murder is not a political crime it is MURDER |
quote: Originally posted by George Smiley
1. Russian law (represented by the Constitution and the European Convention on Extradition) allows for extradition but not for political crimes - fact
Sigh ... we're going back to the same loop again:
Russian Constitution:
Article 61
1. A citizen of the Russian Federation may not be deported from the Russian Federation or extradited to another state.
Article 63
2. In the Russian Federation persons who are persecuted for their political convictions or for actions (or inaction) not recognized as a crime in the Russian Federation may not be extradited to other states. The extradition of persons accused of a crime, as well as the surrender of convicts to serve sentence in other states, shall be carried out on the basis of federal law or an international treaty of the Russian Federation.
^^^^^
NOT ENOUGH READING FOR YOU? Therefore, Lugovoi cannot be extradited, you have not shown me the law and the lines that say that Russia MUST extradite Lugovoi. You're just making it up that something requires that Russia breaks it own laws and extradite its citizens. Russian federal law states that crimes carried out by its citizens CLEARLY must be prosecuted in Russia.
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2. Lugovoi is not wanted for a political crime - fact
Its a politically drive murder, which is political, and now that I read the Russian Constitution again, its pretty obvious that it stipulates that its citizens should be tried IN Russia.
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4. There are no Russian legal barriers for the extradition of Lugovoi - fact
Russian Constitution is not a legal barrier? LOL
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5. The UK's Crown Prosecution Service has enough evidence to charge Lugovoi with murder - fact
No it doesnt. It hasnt presented the evidence other than speculation that a few of the places Lugovoi visited had polonium traces there. But polonium was also found in Berezovsky office, and in British Embassy in Moscow, and so on ... politically motivated case.
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6. The EU and UN say Russian law cannot be trusted (which is why the UK will not allow Lugovoi to be tried under Russian law because they are likely to let him go free) - fact
No, Lugovoi will more likely be freed in Russia because British have weak evidence in this case and so they want to charge and try him in UK where they know they can easily convict him.
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7. The UK has similar extradition laws to Russia, it can extradite people but not for political crimes or where the person may face torture or the death penalty - fact
Once again, what law, show me the lines, tell me where exactly Russia MUST extradite its citizens that are first of all presented with weak evidence for the case of extradition?
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8. Berezovsky has been granted political asylum which means the UK believe that he will be tried for political crimes in Russia - fact
And Russian law for Lugovoi is meaningless you think? Did Russia expel British diplomats when British followed their own laws? No. Russia acted quite civilized, and it was UK who started all this shit, but creating a political provocation and havoc.
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9. It is against UK law, European law to extradite someone of Berezovsky's status (it would even be illegal under Russian law!) - fact
Yes, Berezovsky is a great example of how a corrupt, greedy and criminal businessman is allowed to get away from justice, giving examples to other criminals in Russia to escape to UK and continue their lifestyles ... very good for Russian fledging democracy.
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The above 9 points are all facts. They are not up for discussion. Please read through them and understand them before you comment further on this situation because it has become clear that you do not have enough knowledge of the subjects to engage in a debate about them - this is something that has become apparent in other threads as well - you seem to ignore facts at will when it comes to defending Russia, which is something you need to get out of the habit of doing otherwise anything you say in future will just be irrelevant...
No, not facts ... the politicizing of this case by British government and officials, the lack of respect for the Russian Constitution, the double standards, the contradicting evidence i.e. polonium trails found in where Berezovsky visited and his offices, polonium found in British Embassy at Moscow ... all this is evidence of a politically motivated murder. And the way this case was treated and handled by the British government is an illustration of what really its about. If UK wants to use its weak and inexistent evidence to extradite Lugovoi it should at least be more co-operative with Russia and not create a political scandal by accusing Russian government, expelling Russian diplomats and such because thats a definition of a politically-motivated and childish way to solve this issue.
The only evidence UK has against Lugovoi is that the polonium trail followed him to some of the public places he's been WITH HIS FAMILY (that he intentionally endagered, eh?), while also there's contradicting trails found in Berezovsky's office and such, and so on ... anyhow, you wont get your extradition with the way British government handled this case, where it had no jurisdition because it should have only been a small businessman-to-businessman case. But it became a politically-motivated murder case, as much as you'd like to deny it.
EDIT: Please show me the FACTUAL undisputable evidence that says YES, LUGOVOI DID IT, as you claim. Because not only did the restaurant attendant said he didnt see any poison added. Somehow the British media and their government is quiet about it, other than the trail of polonium that has been found in more places than just those that Lugovoi visited (ex. Berezovsky's office).
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| Originally posted by atbell Not political my ass! This was one of the most blatant political crimes in ages. Why do you think they chose the posion that was used? Didn't you question why one of the best secret services in the world used a poison that could be detected AND traced the lenght of it's travels? The killing was carried out as a draconian act of intimidation. The posion was chosen so that every place that it passed through was identified. Now the notion of "safty" has been shaken as the KGB has shown all of the different places it could have struck, including the British Embacy. |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium [COLOR=FF7F50] Sigh ... we're going back to the same loop again: Russian Constitution: Article 61 1. A citizen of the Russian Federation may not be deported from the Russian Federation or extradited to another state. Article 63 2. In the Russian Federation persons who are persecuted for their political convictions or for actions (or inaction) not recognized as a crime in the Russian Federation may not be extradited to other states. The extradition of persons accused of a crime, as well as the surrender of convicts to serve sentence in other states, shall be carried out on the basis of federal law or an international treaty of the Russian Federation. ^^^^^ NOT ENOUGH READING FOR YOU? Therefore, Lugovoi cannot be extradited, you have not shown me the law and the lines that say that Russia MUST extradite Lugovoi. You're just making it up that something requires that Russia breaks it own laws and extradite its citizens. Russian federal law states that crimes carried out by its citizens CLEARLY must be prosecuted in Russia. |
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| Its a politically drive murder, which is political, and now that I read the Russian Constitution again, its pretty obvious that it stipulates that its citizens should be tried IN Russia. |
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| Russian Constitution is not a legal barrier? LOL |
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| No it doesnt. It hasnt presented the evidence other than speculation that a few of the places Lugovoi visited had polonium traces there. But polonium was also found in Berezovsky office, and in British Embassy in Moscow, and so on ... politically motivated case. |
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| No, Lugovoi will more likely be freed in Russia because British have weak evidence in this case and so they want to charge and try him in UK where they know they can easily convict him. |
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| Once again, what law, show me the lines, tell me where exactly Russia MUST extradite its citizens that are first of all presented with weak evidence for the case of extradition? |
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| And Russian law for Lugovoi is meaningless you think? Did Russia expel British diplomats when British followed their own laws? No. Russia acted quite civilized, and it was UK who started all this shit, but creating a political provocation and havoc. |
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| Yes, Berezovsky is a great example of how a corrupt, greedy and criminal businessman is allowed to get away from justice, giving examples to other criminals in Russia to escape to UK and continue their lifestyles ... very good for Russian fledging democracy. |
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| EDIT: Please show me the FACTUAL undisputable evidence that says YES, LUGOVOI DID IT |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2007...lugovoi_ext.htm |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley You really don't understand do you? The crime has to be political. Murder is not a political crime it is MURDER |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium Politically motivated murder. How many times do I have to say that? POLITICALLY MOTIVATED .... political motivations in this case include blaming an innocent Russian citizen of the crime he probably didnt commit because there's no solid evidence that has been brought up, and what the British agencies/government did as a retaliation, threats and such, further shows this. Therefore Lugovoi has all protection that he will ever need under the Russian Constitution, plus UK refuses to try Lugovoi in court in Russia ... because its got weak / non-existent evidence. That polonium was very expensive ... You really think Lugovoi would spend millions of dollars on such blatantly obvious dangerous act instead of hiring a hitman (which can be less likely traced to him or the Russian government). Seriously, there are only governmments and military who have that type of polonium, and we all know who is ACTUALLY being blamed here ... |
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| Originally posted by George Smiley Do you know what a "political crime" is? |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium Do you actually READ the links that you post? That article specifically states as well that Russian Constitution does not allow extradition of its citizens. I quoted you the Russian Constitution for Christ's sake, and you're giving me links to some opinions of a journalist? LOL Here's a more appropriate documentation that solidifies MY point about laws on extraditions from Russia: http://conventions.coe.int/Treaty/C...L=1&CM=5&CL=ENG Also, where's the evidence that UK claims that it has that shows that Lugovoi did it (other than the ALLEGED polonium trail that also links to Berezovsky, etc.). You got no evidence other than speculations, so stop calling everything a fact because its not. |
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| Originally posted by Magnetonium I am talking about politically motivated murder. And try to reply to other points, please ... like reading the link I provided from a government body, and providing the proof that will enable extradition of Lugovoi. You see, I am not opposed to extradition of Lugovoi. But when the evidence is ballony and weak, when its only speculation about the polonium trails that lead to other suspects who are ignored, well ... thats a weak extradition case. Plus British government has already deliberately ruined relations with Russia by prematurely creating a political war by expelling Russian diplomats and acting like a child. Provide the proof, and we'll find a legal way to give Lugovoi to UK. Its that easy. But too late now, British are never going to apologize for the political fuck-up they did at the government level (when it wasnt their business to turn this into a political incident, and Russian government not to blame). |
Looks like it wasn't actually the UK that "started" this row, looks like Russia sent somebody to the UK to carry out yet another murder on British soil...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6904066.stm
That alone should justify the expulsion of the 4 diplomats at least
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