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I wasn't from my previous post saying that the formula is good, merely that their is an "established" formula for epic trance music and most producers who produce epic trance follow that formula. I think it is still possible to make good epic trance without following the formula to a tee (very predictable sounding tracks). I think Micro de Govia makes good epic trance and does use breakdowns, but it's the way he uses them and their implementation which makes them different. I don't think eliminating breakdowns is necessarily something that would automatically make something less formulaic.

Epic trance, and trance music period (most) is going to have some type of breakdown. I think there was some good trance that has potential, but lately it's been droned out by amateur producers and sameness. So I don't think it's so much the build up, breakdown formula which is bad, it's the repetitive sounds used. It's also what was mentioned by Cobalt, that they had inspiration, catchiness, tracks that stood out. You don't have that as much nowadays. Very few "stand out" tracks IMO.

I don't know if you would consider it trance, but Probspot's "Foreplay" was excellent, and it really didn't sound like all the other trance out there. Same with Leama & Moore's music.

Whatever sounds good to me, thats all that matters. If it comes from a formula, so be it.

....

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Originally posted by Magnus Whatever sounds good to me, thats all that matters. If it comes from a formula, so be it.

+2

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Originally posted by Spirit5 Epic trance, and trance music period (most) is going to have some type of breakdown. I think there was some good trance that has potential, but lately it's been droned out by amateur producers and sameness. So I don't think it's so much the build up, breakdown formula which is bad, it's the repetitive sounds used. It's also what was mentioned by Cobalt, that they had inspiration, catchiness, tracks that stood out. You don't have that as much nowadays. Very few "stand out" tracks IMO.

When you start changing around how the track sounds, it starts becoming a different genre...

Then people complain about the bastardization of one genre being overtaken by another...

People will always bitch. There will always be newbs and always be so-called "elitists". Who cares?

Examples of Trance with the formula but IMO are good:

Rapid Eye - Circa Forever (R.E. Mix), Santa Cruz (R.E. Mix)
Alibi - Eternity (Thrillseekers New Horizon Mix)
Free Radical - Surreal (En Motion Mix)
Micro de Govia - Vital Spark, Epic Monolith, Aura Indigo
Solar Stone - Seven Cities, Solar Coaster, Eastern Sea, 3rd Earth
Matt Hardwick vs. Smith & Pledger - Day One (Above & Beyond's Big Room Mix)
Tranquility Base - Razorfish (Above & Beyond's Progressive Mix)
Aalto - Rush (Super8 vs. Orkidea Remix), Taurine (Super8 Remix)

Don't see what's wrong with any of these tracks...

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Originally posted by david.michael When you start changing around how the track sounds, it starts becoming a different genre... Then people complain about the bastardization of one genre being overtaken by another... People will always bitch. There will always be newbs and always be so-called "elitists". Who cares?

Not really. The sound can change but the genre wouldn't. If you change say the way a breakdown sounds, the instruments being used and the elements in the track...it can still remain in the established sub-genre. What I mean by sounds is instruments. Say adding a guitar in a breakdown, which has already been done in both house and trance, replacing the saw-wave or supersaw sound or the synth-strings/soft pad type sound and replacing it with something else. Also change the way a breakdown is arranged, and even borrowing some elements from other genres..like breaks. BT did it back in the day. Genres overlap all the time, but that doesn't mean it's become a new genre. It's when those elements take over the track that it becomes something new.

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Whatever sounds good to me, thats all that matters. If it comes from a formula, so be it.

This is like the steak in the first matrix movie. Smith and Cypher meat in a steakhouse in the matrix.

"
Cypher: You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize?
[Takes a bite of steak]
Cypher: Ignorance is bliss.
"


in other words, I feel that people refuse to accept that what they are listening to really isn't that good or interesting because they are comfortable trapped behind the thin veil of happiness and nostalgia for music that made them feel special and 'different' from 'normal' people. I personally question EVERYTHING I listen to. I see these trance sets here on TA for download and every tracklist shares like 6 tracks from the 3 years ago. I buy my share of classics but come on - how can you ever stop searching for something you like even more? Because that's what it is for me. Every time I find something different that I like I feel like I have discovered another part of myself.

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When you start changing around how the track sounds, it starts becoming a different genre...

Most people who study genre will tell you that's when originality begins. Genre games are a common genesis of original and interesting artwork.

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Originally posted by Spirit5 Not really. The sound can change but the genre wouldn't. If you change say the way a breakdown sounds, the instruments being used and the elements in the track...it can still remain in the established sub-genre. What I mean by sounds is instruments. Say adding a guitar in a breakdown, which has already been done in both house and trance, replacing the saw-wave or supersaw sound or the synth-strings/soft pad type sound and replacing it with something else. Also change the way a breakdown is arranged, and even borrowing some elements from other genres..like breaks. BT did it back in the day. Genres overlap all the time, but that doesn't mean it's become a new genre. It's when those elements take over the track that it becomes something new.

But my point is, this happens, and people still complain.

People started adding buzzy basslines to trance, so-called "electro"-trance was born, and people bitched.

People started adding guitar to trance tracks, people called it fluffy and bitched.

People started using chopped vocals for melodies, everyone said "god I'm getting tired of this Andy Moor sound" and bitched.

People started slowing their tracks down and making them housier... progressive house was born (so it's no longer "trance"), and vice versa.

Change the rhythm of the kick drum, now it's called "breaks".

People aren't happy with the genre, so they change it to something else...then they complain that there isn't any good music in their genre, when what they need to do is just admit that they don't care for their genre anymore.

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Originally posted by nefardec in other words, I feel that people refuse to accept that what they are listening to really isn't that good or interesting because they are comfortable trapped behind the thin veil of happiness and nostalgia for music that made them feel special and 'different' from 'normal' people.

I want to quote that in particular. What's interesting about this attitude is it's YOUR opinion that you think people's music isn't good so they think it isn't good. What is good and isn't good is SUBJECTIVE. People do grow out of said genre, but that doesn't mean it "sucks" or just isn't good. As I said previously on here, you can grow out of said genre but still appreciate it and listen to it, but that doesn't mean you should turn your back on it and be like "it sucks, I listened to that when I was 16". I think it's possible to like stuff you enjoyed in the past, and still move on from it..explore different things. Just because someone still likes trance, doesn't mean they aren't open to other genres of music. I'm 22, I've liked trance since I was like 14 or 15. Do you think I'm closed minded to other music? Most CDs i've bought in the past two years have not been trance and I hardly download trance on Beatport anymore, just some older stuff I liked.

I liked Transformers when I was a kid, I saw the movie recently and I still enjoyed it. It's almost the same with trance, although I still listen to it (I can't say I play with Transformers toys anymore).

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Originally posted by nefardec Most people who study genre will tell you that's when originality begins. Genre games are a common genesis of original and interesting artwork.

I agree... see my above post for elaboration.

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Originally posted by david.michael People aren't happy with the genre, so they change it to something else...then they complain that there isn't any good music in their genre, when what they need to do is just admit that they don't care for their genre anymore.

And that's my point as well. People like MrJiveBoJingles refuses to admit he just doesn't like epic trance, so he complains about Static Blue's music. It's the same with other people.

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Originally posted by Spirit5 I want to quote that in particular. What's interesting about this attitude is it's YOUR opinion that you think people's music isn't good so they think it isn't good. What is good and isn't good is SUBJECTIVE. People do grow out of said genre, but that doesn't mean it "sucks" or just isn't good. As I said previously on here, you can grow out of said genre but still appreciate it and listen to it, but that doesn't mean you should turn your back on it and be like "it sucks, I listened to that when I was 16". I think it's possible to like stuff you enjoyed in the past, and still move on from it..explore different things. Just because someone still likes trance, doesn't mean they aren't open to other genres of music. I'm 22, I've liked trance since I was like 14 or 15. Do you think I'm closed minded to other music? Most CDs i've bought in the past two years have not been trance and I hardly download trance on Beatport anymore, just some older stuff I liked.

I'm not criticizing you personally, and I don't want to, so please calm down. Go listen to some chicane or something . If you read my post calmly before overreacting and quoting it you would see that I question even my own taste in music. I have mixes from a few years back with armand van helden and thrillseekers in them... what's important is that i don't anymore

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Originally posted by Spirit5 And that's my point as well. People like MrJiveBoJingles refuses to admit he just doesn't like epic trance, so he complains about Static Blue's music. It's the same with other people.

It appears that we have the same main outlook. But the part I was arguing was that trance is not changing/being innovated/evolving. Of course it is, or else trance wouldn't sound any different than it did in 92.

That's because the technology changed in the 90s. The technology now is all about emulating old sounds and making it easy for your grandmother to make a supersaw. all dance music is guilty of fetishizing classic sounds

With technology comes further innovation... and in some cases, repetition... but I still tend to think that trance would still sound different than it did in 92 even if there was a freeze on technology since then.

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Originally posted by nefardec I'm not criticizing you personally, and I don't want to, so please calm down. Go listen to some chicane or something . If you read my post calmly before overreacting and quoting it you would see that I question even my own taste in music. I have mixes from a few years back with armand van helden and thrillseekers in them... what's important is that i don't anymore

I know your not criticizing and I'm not over-reacting. All I'm saying is that you should be able to like a certain style of music or anything you liked in the past, and still move on to other things. I don't understand why some people just turn their backs on it, but can't embrace other styles as well as still appreciate nostalgia or even dig to find a few new gems. I found Lemon & Einar K's "Hope" and that was on accident, on Beatport, and it's one of my most favorite trance tunes in years.

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Originally posted by Spirit5 All I'm saying is that you should be able to like a certain style of music or anything you liked in the past, and still move on to other things.

Agreed... I like music in general, I've never been one to pigeonhole myself into one particular style. People would probably have a good laugh if they went through my CD collection.

"Killswitch Engage.... James Zabiela... Zao... Chicane... Metallica... Snoop Dogg... wtf??"

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Originally posted by Spirit5 And that's my point as well. People like MrJiveBoJingles refuses to admit he just doesn't like epic trance, so he complains about Static Blue's music. It's the same with other people.

The subjective part is that I'm tired of it. The objective part of the matter is that this kind of music really does use all the same sounds in almost exactly the same way.

I'm trying to produce a bit myself, and I honestly can't see how it would be enjoyable to craft ten different versions of the same ten or so sounds ("aah" choir, saw pad, saw lead, etc.) and use them in the exact same kind of song structure again and again. Have you ever tried to produce or do anything artistic? If so, do you understand how somebody could enjoy doing that?

Maybe somebody could explain that to me, because I find it really baffling.

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Originally posted by david.michael Agreed... I like music in general, I've never been one to pigeonhole myself into one particular style. People would probably have a good laugh if they went through my CD collection. "Killswitch Engage.... James Zabiela... Zao... Chicane... Metallica... Snoop Dogg... wtf??"

Yeah i'm not as ecletic as that but I tend to gravitate towards any music which is 1. Deep/Emotional 2. Ethereal/Other-Worldly 3. Melodic or harmonic.

Basically anything from Sarah McLachlan, to Enya, to Enigma, to Boards of Canada, Ulrich Schnauss, Amethystium, Deep Forest, Royksopp, Zero 7, Air, Delerium, old Tiesto, Armin van Buuren, Oakenfold and Ferry Corsten mixed CDs (and some new), Paul van Dyk and BT CDs, Sasha and Digweed CDs (and other prog mixed CDs), Pink Floyd albums (though I only own the greatest hits and Dark Side of the Moon), and then some old Metallica CDs, Brian McKnight, Creed, Godsmack and some stuff like that.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles The subjective part is that I'm tired of it. The objective part of the matter is that this kind of music really does use all the same sounds in almost exactly the same way. I'm trying to produce a bit myself, and I honestly can't see how it would be enjoyable to craft ten different versions of the same ten or so sounds ("aah" choir, saw pad, saw lead, etc.) and use them in the exact same kind of song structure again and again. Have you ever tried to produce or do anything artistic? If so, do you understand how somebody could enjoy doing that? Maybe somebody could explain that to me, because I find it really baffling.

I agree, it is repetitive and formulaic. But if your complaining about the build up, breakdown formula...that's what I don't understand cause that's epic trance for ya. Nothing to complain about there because that's what it is. But it is true that there is some epic trance out there that does sound all alike and not much variety. To me, it had more variety in the past and there is still "some" out there that are good. To me, it's the sounds being over-used, the presets or whatever, not the formula in and of itself. I am not as huge of a fan of the formula either anymore, but like I've said..it is what it is.

This is kinda like people saying "god I'm tired of all the screaming and crunchy, over-driven loud guitars in hardcore rock... I wish they would use acoustic guitars and slow the tempo down a little bit, and sing in a gentle falsetto voice and lay off the double-bass pedal," but suddenly you find yourself listening to emo or soft rock. A genre is what it is because of its elements.

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Originally posted by david.michael But my point is, this happens, and people still complain. People started adding buzzy basslines to trance, so-called "electro"-trance was born, and people bitched. People started adding guitar to trance tracks, people called it fluffy and bitched. People started using chopped vocals for melodies, everyone said "god I'm getting tired of this Andy Moor sound" and bitched. People started slowing their tracks down and making them housier... progressive house was born (so it's no longer "trance"), and vice versa. Change the rhythm of the kick drum, now it's called "breaks". People aren't happy with the genre, so they change it to something else...then they complain that there isn't any good music in their genre, when what they need to do is just admit that they don't care for their genre anymore.

Just because an element is changed doesn't mean the production is inspired. Trance can add ukeleles and hardcore stabs, but it's not going anywhere until people put talent and heart into it again.

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Maybe somebody could explain that to me, because I find it really baffling.

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Originally posted by Cobalt Just because an element is changed doesn't mean the production is inspired. Trance can add ukeleles and hardcore stabs, but it's not going anywhere until people put talent and heart into it again.

Could you elaborate on why you think talent and heart is missing? (I'm not saying it is or isn't, I'm just curious as to why you think so.)

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Originally posted by Spirit5 And that's my point as well. People like MrJiveBoJingles refuses to admit he just doesn't like epic trance, so he complains about Static Blue's music. It's the same with other people.

I think that's ridiculous. I've taken a lot of flak for liking epic productions from Ferry Corsten and Paul van Dyk in years past. I still own these records and still enjoy them. New material, including from those very artists, lack the same spark and creative drive. It's plain.

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