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quote:

Originally posted by Shamez214 Nope.

thanks

k, I'm an idiot on the first one, but the fact that griffey was in center still earns him points, and when you factor in the fact that griffey won a gold glove every season but his rookie one (until 2000), fielding still falls well in his favor. Plus, gold gloves only compare players to about 90 others per year, so it means you're in the top 3% of outfielders. Realistically, it's probably much larger, after injuries & guys who get plugged in left 'cuz they can't throw. So, while Griffey's Gold Glove credentials still outweigh those of Bonds, Barry was NEVER considered an all-time great defensive outfielder. Base-stealer, absolutely. Home-run hitter, based on consistency, I guess. Not fielder, though, as Griffey was.

As for strike-outs, when you have no protection in the line-up, you get walked. Compare:

http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/sea...day_lineups.jsp

http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/p...s.jsp?content=4
http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/...day_lineups.jsp

Statistical onslaught to come later

The only thing about the 90's stats in reference to Barroid is that you can't count 1998 and 1999. Those 2 years he was on the juice. So those will distort the stats. Anyway, I think Bonds was the better player than Junior by a hair. However, I would say though that CF is a tougher position to play than LF. Also, Junior missed a ton of games from 1994-1996 which also would hinder the comparison of cumulative stats. Nevertheless, Barroid had more pure dominance. It's close though.

Frank Thomas was a DH. You lose points with me that way. You just do. Same goes for David Ortiz and the MVP voting last year. I'd still have to vote him in yes. He was always a huge dude and hitting homers, don't suspect he roided. He never had a spike in stats.

Thing is, before 1998 Barroid wasn't in the discussion as the best player ever. He wasn't even included on the all century team which was voted in 1999. He was a hall of famer still but not in discussion as the greatest player ever. Roids did that. Oh I forgot, he's a piece of shit.

No matter, A Rod is gonna hit 850 homers.

quote:

Originally posted by Member of X The only thing about the 90's stats in reference to Barroid is that you can't count 1998 and 1999.

I can't remember when it was, exactly. It may have been at some point in 1998, but was definitely on them by the start of '99, since it was spurred by McGwire & Sosa's run (based on a conversation he had at, ironically enough, Griffey's house in '98). That, of course, also requires that you believe he was completely clean prior to that.

By the way, the best player ever starts and ends with Babe Ruth. Dude won 94 games in his career as a starting pitcher with a lifetime ERA of 2.28. 5th best ERA in the history. 148 games started, 107 complete games!

Oh yeah, 1 HR per 11.7 at bats. Only cheater McGwire beats him.

quote:

Originally posted by inconspicuous I can't remember when it was, exactly. It may have been at some point in 1998, but was definitely on them by the start of '99, since it was spurred by McGwire & Sosa's run (based on a conversation he had at, ironically enough, Griffey's house in '98). That, of course, also requires that you believe he was completely clean prior to that.

Book game of shadows says it was sometime in the 1998 season because he was jealous over the pub that Say it Ain't Sosa and Big Mac were getting.

Yeah, Frank Thomas probably wasn't on anything, imo. He was just always huge and had an enormous frame, and never really looked like he was jacked up on something. I wouldn't be shocked if I was wrong, but if that's the case, then he had to be spending all winter eating his way back to a normal-looking shape, 'cuz he was always a bit...round.

By the way, he was primarily a first baseman before he got old, and really could field. That was actually one of the more surprising attributes of his. He wasn't J.T. Snow, but he was a very good fielder, especially for his size.

That said, I don't even think about him when it comes to a discussion of the greatest players of that era. He was an incredible power hitter, and, as I mentioned, an above average fielder, but he had a few fatal flaws as a hitter. He was almost a perfect incarnation of Cerrano from Major League--throw him anything that broke, low & outside, and he'd embarrass himself. I wouldn't put him far above Mo Vaughn for a few of those years, just in terms of the intimidation & power that they both relied on. On top of that, he was never a good teammate, an attribute that certainly contributed to his teams' lack of success (his only ring is from a season in which he didn't play, and got banned from the clubhouse while he was injured).

quote:

Originally posted by Member of X By the way, the best player ever starts and ends with Babe Ruth. Dude won 94 games in his career as a starting pitcher with a lifetime ERA of 2.28. 5th best ERA in the history. 148 games started, 107 complete games! Oh yeah, 1 HR per 11.7 at bats. Only cheater McGwire beats him.

agreed. This is one of the many reasons I want to slap Tim Kurkjian upside the head.

quote:

Originally posted by Member of X Book game of shadows says it was sometime in the 1998 season because he was jealous over the pub that Say it Ain't Sosa and Big Mac were getting.

yeah, that's what I was referring to, but I can't remember if he actually then started before the end of the season.

quote:

Originally posted by Member of X By the way, the best player ever starts and ends with Babe Ruth. Dude won 94 games in his career as a starting pitcher with a lifetime ERA of 2.28. 5th best ERA in the history. 148 games started, 107 complete games! Oh yeah, 1 HR per 11.7 at bats. Only cheater McGwire beats him.

we all know he was the best player ever...

BUT, Griffey was going to be better than Ruth, if he stayed healthy... but he didn't, so Ruth > Griffey...

but, A-Rod > Ruth in 10 years, and we all can agree on that, no?

quote:

Originally posted by King Ecnal we all know he was the best player ever... BUT, Griffey was going to be better than Ruth, if he stayed healthy... but he didn't, so Ruth > Griffey... but, A-Rod > Ruth in 10 years, and we all can agree on that, no?

i'd say pujols is a better player than A-Rod but he's stuck on a shitty team with no protection behind him.

imagine Pujols in a yankees line-up. he would have a monster year.

quote:

Originally posted by Aristronica i'd say pujols is a better player than A-Rod but he's stuck on a shitty team with no protection behind him. imagine Pujols in a yankees line-up. he would have a monster year.

probably will someday. A-rod went through his stints with Seattle and Texas before heading off to the Yankees. People sometimes forget his MVP type season he had with Texas back in 2002.

quote:

Originally posted by LeopoldStotch back in 2003.

quote:

Originally posted by Aristronica

well he won the MVP in 2003, because the candidates were mediocre, and according to A-Rod stat standards, it was an average year for him. In 2002, he clearly was the better athlete, and was robbed by Miguel Tejada, just because Tejada was playing for the better team.

quote:

Originally posted by Aristronica i'd say pujols is a better player than A-Rod but he's stuck on a shitty team with no protection behind him. imagine Pujols in a yankees line-up. he would have a monster year.

Pujo was my best player EVER before this season... this season... even though he's come around since the first 3 months... is just WAY too uncharacteristic of him... and it scared me a bit...

but yes, Pujo and A-ROD will both be in the top 5 best ever players when they're done....

plus A-ROD had been groomed for stardom since junior high...

Pujo just came out of no where... which is even more impressive, but A-ROD will be done sooner than Pujo, therefore he's best ever for me now...

Yeesh. Already saying Pujols will be one of the top 5 ever? That would make him better than a few of these guys: Rogers Hornsby, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Joe Dimaggio, Lou Gehrig, Babe Ruth, Barry Bonds, Mickey Mantle, Honus Wagner, Jimmie Foxx, Ted Williams.

You sure you wanna say that already?

quote:

Originally posted by King Ecnal A-Rod > Ruth in 10 years, and we all can agree on that, no?

I still wouldn't, just because of the pitching aspect. Ruth's credentials as they stand are already amazing, and had he continued pitching, at that pace, he'd have wound up with 455 career wins. Take that skill, then add to it the fact that he was the greatest power hitter in history and held a .342 career average, and it's nearly impossible to even compare him to anyone else.

quote:

Originally posted by Shamez214 You sure you wanna say that already?

Yup,

you can throw out all the old guys, Cobb, Speaker, Hornsby, Wagner, none of those guys hit HR's cause that wasn't part of the game like it is today, etc...

Now go to Foxx, Dimaggio, Ted Williams, Ruth, Gehrig.... all hit for average and power... had it all... Pujo does as well... and by the time Pujo will be done, he will crush all in HR's and Hits...

Yeah Dimaggio and Williams had war and all that, but what are you going to do.... so maybe Dimmagio, Williams and Pujo will be the best 3 hitters ever someday... in no particular order...

and I throw out Bonds and the Mick, cause they used substances to enhance their game (roids and booze)

So defense gets thrown out the window when it comes to the greatest players all of sudden? I don't get that sorry. Pooholes isn't a good fielder. At least A Rod was a gold glove SS before and having a solid year at third this year (bad one LY).

Ruth >> anybody unless they can dominate pitching AND be the best by game HR hitter ever. Plus, he was a big fat guy doing all that, he wasn't on the Roids. Only booze, hot dogs, and cigarettes.

If I'm thinking about #2, I'm gonna say Willie Mays. Oh yeah, he hit 660 HR's, third best all time (juice guys don't count). And....12 freaking gold gloves (tied for most ever by an OF with Roberto Clemente). Thanks guys for not even mentioning him. Sheesh.

Upon his Hall of Fame election, Mays was asked to name the best player that he had seen during his career. Mays replied, "I don't mean to be bashful, but I was."

Pooholes has to be great for 10 more years before I start sniffing at best player ever conversation. We're far from that. Sorry.

quote:

Originally posted by King Ecnal Yup, and I throw out Bonds and the Mick, cause they used substances to enhance their game (roids and booze)

how does alcohol improve your play, exactly? It's a perfectly legal substance by the way.

quote:

Originally posted by Member of X So defense gets thrown out the window when it comes to the greatest players all of sudden? I don't get that sorry. Pooholes isn't a good fielder. At least A Rod was a gold glove SS before and having a solid year at third this year (bad one LY). Ruth >> anybody unless they can dominate pitching AND be the best by game HR hitter ever. Plus, he was a big fat guy doing all that, he wasn't on the Roids. Only booze, hot dogs, and cigarettes. If I'm thinking about #2, I'm gonna say Willie Mays. Oh yeah, he hit 660 HR's, third best all time (juice guys don't count). And....12 freaking gold gloves (tied for most ever by an OF with Roberto Clemente). Thanks guys for not even mentioning him. Sheesh. Upon his Hall of Fame election, Mays was asked to name the best player that he had seen during his career. Mays replied, "I don't mean to be bashful, but I was." Pooholes has to be great for 10 more years before I start sniffing at best player ever conversation. We're far from that. Sorry.

Mays is the other one that immediately comes to mind after Ruth for me. I haven't given it enough thought lately to say that's my *cringe* final answer, but he's far from forgotten. I'm a much bigger fan of defense than offense in every sport, but I think that stance is one of a fairly small minority.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 how does alcohol improve your play, exactly?

Brett Favre


CASE CLOSED, thank you!


edit: Oh and Juice, Willie Mays is and always will be... an ASSHOLE, so I NEVER include him in anything, I can't stand the guy, I wish he would just leave baseball... he reminds me of another guy in a Giants uniform who is an ahole too....

quote:

Originally posted by Member of X If I'm thinking about #2, I'm gonna say Willie Mays. Oh yeah, he hit 660 HR's, third best all time (juice guys don't count). And....12 freaking gold gloves (tied for most ever by an OF with Roberto Clemente). Thanks guys for not even mentioning him. Sheesh.

Yeah... I'm gonna say it. But... Bonds is better than Mays.

quote:

Originally posted by King Ecnal edit: Oh and Juice, Willie Mays is and always will be... an ASSHOLE, so I NEVER include him in anything, I can't stand the guy, I wish he would just leave baseball... he reminds me of another guy in a Giants uniform who is an ahole too....

any reason why?

quote:

Originally posted by verndogs any reason why?

Yeah... lots... He is full of himself, like someone mentioned. I can't count on one hand how many times I've seen him pissy while being interviewed, he is a VERY irritable OLD man during interviews and such, HE only seems happy when he's on the camera and NOT being interviewed, Stuttering John interviewed him YEARS ago and he got all pissy and shit, and theres no need for that, its all good fun, he's black and very angry, obviously because Ted Williams got all the limelight before he croaked... he's NO Hank Aaron thats all I'm saying, Willie Mays is a jerk...

and for the LOVE of GOD, Defense is over-rated... my friends used to call me "EDMONDS IN THE OUTFIELD" cause I could play defense, if I can do it, anyone can... all you need is wheels, and you can track down any ball.... Willie Mays dazzling catch, big F'n deal... anyone could do that... seriously...

and Shamez is right, BONDS > MAYS... in the AHOLE category and Overall better player!!!

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