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-- Hugo...doing it again.
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I got nothing against US citizens, well not all of them
The rest I'm really not going to talk about (ever) concerning myself and the US government!

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt ...

Don't get me wrong, I've seen those and similar stories in the press myself, but there isn't anything there that's THAT bad is there? A hell of a lot of the things is comparable to things that Britain or America has done (if reported correctly)

EG:

Ruling by decree - the UK has a Parliament act so it can bypass the House of Lords if they vote against the government. The Cabinet also can pursue any action without consulting Parliament (eg. Iraq war)

Appointing your buddies in the Supreme Court - US Presidents do it don't they? And the British government usually nominate Lords who are in their own parties

Dodgy foreign friends - Both the UK and USA prop up some pretty oppressive regimes in the Mid East, and we've all seen the picture of Rumsfeld and Saddam!

Supporting terrorists - who hasn't!?

Accounts of police brutality - happens in every country in the world




You see, I'm just very sceptical when it comes to taking, essentially, the American government's word on a country that it hates because it is left wing. There seems to be some kind of hangover from the Cold War about Socialism. Nationalised industries are not the mark of a dictatorship - only until recently has the UK privatised it's nationalised industries off and everyone is up in arms about it still!

There just seems to be a lot of Americanised spin on stories about Venezuala and when I think about the political/economic right wing beliefs prevailent in America I just find myself taking it with a pinch of salt...

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith I don't have a Pol-Science degree

Well I have two, but it doesn't mean I know anything about Venezuala!!!

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Why do you think that a government should only be able to stand for a limitted amount of terms of office? And as someone who knows nothing about Venezuala, perhaps you could provide me with some trustworthy source to back up your claims that Venezuala is a dictatorship? Was Chavez not elected by the people?

"Elected by the people" - that's a very loose translation for; they didn't have any other choice...

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r "Elected by the people" - that's a very loose translation for; they didn't have any other choice...

Is it? I don't know!

That's why I keep asking for sources!

Who told you they didn't have any choice??

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Is it? I don't know! That's why I keep asking for sources! Who told you they didn't have any choice??

Sorry, that should have read, 'They are not going to have any other choice'.

Amazing how one or two words missing changed that...sorry

Yes, they did have elections, but Hugo pretty much bought his presidency by bribing the poor with his oil.

Why do Socialists always have to bribe the poor to get anywhere anyways...
(Like they have any influence on anything that matters).

When you say "bribe" what do you mean?

I'm getting visions of poltical parties promising people to make their lives better if they vote for them, and then I'm thinking, erm, hold on a sec, isn't that how EVERY ELECTION IN THE WORLD EVER EVER EVER WAS WON but then maybe that's just me?

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley When you say "bribe" what do you mean? I'm getting visions of poltical parties promising people to make their lives better if they vote for them, and then I'm thinking, erm, hold on a sec, isn't that how EVERY ELECTION IN THE WORLD EVER EVER EVER WAS WON but then maybe that's just me?

It's one thing to promise, quite another to contrive and then keep yourself in power while you're there.
Hugo's last election came into question as to whether it was legit or not.
I'm not going to post anything on it, just Google it and you'll see tons of hits on that subject.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby Eh... some nobody island country has a different form of government than us.. who cares?

umm...the US government ?

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r It's one thing to promise, quite another to contrive and then keep yourself in power while you're there. Hugo's last election came into question as to whether it was legit or not. I'm not going to post anything on it, just Google it and you'll see tons of hits on that subject.

I found this article from the BBC (a fairly reliable source)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6205128.stm

I don't get any negative "vibes" from it. It also mentions nearly a year ago, almost in passing, that Chavez will seek to change the Constitution to allow him to contest future elections, as if it's no big deal. It also says the election was monitored by 100s of international observers. It doesn't say they mentioned anything bad (altho I'm sure I should be able to find their report somewhere) - also! the opposition conceded defeat, they didn't say it had been rigged!

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley I found this article from the BBC (a fairly reliable source) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6205128.stm I don't get any negative "vibes" from it. It also mentions nearly a year ago, almost in passing, that Chavez will seek to change the Constitution to allow him to contest future elections, as if it's no big deal. It also says the election was monitored by 100s of international observers. It doesn't say they mentioned anything bad (altho I'm sure I should be able to find their report somewhere) - also! the opposition conceded defeat, they didn't say it had been rigged!

LOL
Funny thing is, I was reading that same article!

This is the part I was referring to:

quote:

The president, who has secured the support of the poor by using oil to fund welfare, told crowds his left-wing "Bolivarian revolution" had triumphed.

Not that there's anything wrong with doing that mind you, but funding welfare is like....well this quote says it better than I can and it's exactly what Hugo is doing...

"The welfare state is the oldest con game in the world. First you take people's money away quietly, and then you give some of it back to them flamboyantly. – Thomas Sowell"

...and this one...

"Six Miracles of Socialism:

There is no unemployment, but no one works.
No one works, but everyone gets paid.
Everyone gets paid, but there is nothing to buy with the money.
No one can buy anything, but everyone owns everything.
Everyone owns everything, but no one is satisfied.
No one is satisfied, but 99 percent of the people vote for the system. – Anonymous"

But it sounds like you're equating the Welfare State to dictatorship?

And whoever wrote the quote at the end of your posts needs their head screwing on, and aren't you a little too intelligent to actually believe what it says?

Like I said, the UK's economy, up until Thatcher, had a good mix of nationalised and privatised industries. Thatcher changed that and sold a load of the nations industries off and that, to a large extent, is what people today blame for societies problems.

So if the UK has a history of being a welfare state, and the British public remain outraged to this day that Thatcher implemented a right wing Americanised economy, how can you seemingly just use the Welfare State and nationalised industry in Venezuela to describe it as a dictatorship? Because it sounds to me that Chavez would be hugely popular amongst certain sections of British society.

It sounds more and more like these views of Chavez are not based on facts (altho I stand to be proved wrong cos like I said, I'm not very knowledgeable about Venezuela) but on a Cold War mind set that breeds hatred of alternative left wing economic systems

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley But it sounds like you're equating the Welfare State to dictatorship?

The steps in between the two are small.

quote:

And whoever wrote the quote at the end of your posts needs their head screwing on, and aren't you a little too intelligent to actually believe what it says?

I've known too many people that have moved from other countries, to Canada, based on exactly what those quotes above mention.
People want to have the ability to free themselves and for the most part, they don't where they just immigrated from.
Either the government controls everything or to even consider owning a business they either have to know somebody or grease everyone's palm because of all the corruption (government and/or underground elements).
So my 'intelligence' or 'experience' on the subject is based on my current conversations with people that have actually lived it.

quote:

Like I said, the UK's economy, up until Thatcher, had a good mix of nationalised and privatised industries. Thatcher changed that and sold a load of the nations industries off and that, to a large extent, is what people today blame for societies problems.

They probably had problems because they didn't know how to handle themselves without the government telling them how to!
I thought it was her tax policy that landed her in hot water?

quote:

So if the UK has a history of being a welfare state, and the British public remain outraged to this day that Thatcher implemented a right wing Americanised economy, how can you seemingly just use the Welfare State and nationalised industry in Venezuela to describe it as a dictatorship? Because it sounds to me that Chavez would be hugely popular amongst certain sections of British society.

Ask yourself why Hugo figures he needs to extend the (his) presidential term indefinitely?
The only one who benefits (other than the welfare people he's propping up) is him.
How is that not a step towards dictatorship?
That coupled with all the nationalization he has been doing, one would have to be blind not to see where this is all going.
Being chums with Castro should be another tip off since he's pretty much emulating him anyways.
Hugo will continue so long as the oil that's providing him with his funds keep coming in.
As soon as the bottom falls out on oil prices, he'll collapse like a deck o'cards as soon as 'his people' fail to see their welfare cheques reaching their mailboxes...

quote:

It sounds more and more like these views of Chavez are not based on facts (altho I stand to be proved wrong cos like I said, I'm not very knowledgeable about Venezuela) but on a Cold War mind set that breeds hatred of alternative left wing economic systems

I will admit, I'm not a huge fan of socialist policies but there are just so many examples of why it just doesn't work properly.
I'm not going to say it never works because obviously there are example of countries that use it well enough; Sweden anyone?
Sure it's going fine now (if you can call it 'fine') but the whole economic structure of Venezuela is now based on Hugo's government, so long as people support him and no one else.
As soon as that collapses, they're in for a world of hurt.
They have nothing to fall back on and can't rely on the net of private businesses to step up when all the business are getting fed from the same source.
Just look at what happened to Cuba after the U.S.S.R. collapsed and the Cuban government stopped getting their communist-card-carrying subsidies.
One of the first things Castro did was nationalize their Cigar industry in an attempt to fill the sucking black hole in his wallet.

People should not have to look to their government for their financial well being; it should be there to foster it, not provide it.

hey! I found a pic of "democracy" under Chavez..

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt hey! I found a pic of "democracy" under Chavez..

hey! I found a pic of "democracy" under Bush...

The broad economy from the past 10 years. Notice how the market rallies BIG TIME from the time the US invades Iraq, March 2003.

At least the opposition is showing some semblance of an opposition.

quote:

Chavez foes rally against reform By FABIOLA SANCHEZ, Associated Press Writer Thu Aug 16, 6:53 PM ET CARACAS, Venezuela - Opponents of President Hugo Chavez vowed Thursday to block his plans to radically overhaul the constitution, warning the changes would give him unlimited power and cripple democracy in Venezuela. Some of the more sweeping constitutional reforms proposed by Chavez Wednesday night would extend presidential terms from six to seven years and eliminate current limits on his re-election. He also wants the central government to have greater control over local government and would end the autonomy of Venezuela's Central Bank — potentially funneling billions of dollars in foreign reserves into social programs. Chavez called for a transition to "a new society" that will lift millions in the oil-rich nation out of poverty. He said the constitutional changes are necessary so that capitalism in Venezuela "finishes dying" to allow his socialist revolution to flourish. But his opponents see the move as another power grab by an increasingly autocratic leader and fear he wants to steer Venezuela toward Cuban-style communism. "We will go from town to town to mobilize the people to confront this attempted constitutional coup," said Manuel Rosales, the leader of Venezuela's largest opposition party. "A constitutional reform isn't necessary. What the people want is for this constitution to be obeyed." If approved, the reforms would be Chavez's most radical step yet in his drive to transform Venezuela into a socialist state. Since his December re-election, he has already nationalized the oil, telecommunications and electricity sectors. Among other reforms proposed Wednesday, Chavez would create new types of property to be managed by cooperatives, reduce the workday to six hours and create "a popular militia" that would form part of the military. He also urged lawmakers to increase the government's power to expropriate private property before getting a court's approval to remove obstacles to his plans to redistribute "unproductive" farming lands to among the poor and open the way for cooperatives to manage failing factories. The president's supporters say the reforms will help the poor by bolstering initiatives from free adult education to "communal councils" that give citizens increased participation in community planning. But critics say the new constitution would let Chavez tighten government control over the economy in the western hemisphere's largest oil exporter and allow him to be re-elected indefinitely. "Why doesn't he leave the legislative technicalities aside," Teodoro Petkoff, editor of the opposition-sided Tal Cual newspaper, wrote in an editorial Thursday, "and propose, once and for all, a one-line article reading: 'Hugo Chavez will be president however long he wants.'" The president's political allies firmly control the National Assembly and are expected to approve the reform plan within months. It would then have to be approved by voters in a national referendum. Government foes said they would mount a nationwide campaign lobbying Venezuelans to oppose the reform — a daunting task in a country that re-elected Chavez to the presidency by a wide margin last December. Chavez was first elected in 1998 and took office the following year. Current presidential term limits prevent him from seeking re-election to a third term in 2012. Chavez on Wednesday denied he wanted to be president for life. "If someone says this is a project to entrench oneself in power, no, it's only a possibility, a possibility that depends on many variables," he said. Under Chavez, tensions with Washington have increased. The U.S. called the ex-lieutenant colonel a negative influence on Latin America and criticized Venezuela's increasingly close ties with U.S. foes such as Iran. Washington is also weary of Venezuela's purchases of about $3 billion worth of arms from Russia, including 53 military helicopters, 100,000 Kalashnikov rifles, and 24 SU-30 Sukhoi fighter jets.

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r The steps in between the two are small.

Seriously man you're talking out fo your arse! Are you tryin to tell me every country in Europe is a dictatorship?! I'm lookin out the window and it don't look much like a dictatorship to me!

quote:

I've known too many people that have moved from other countries, to Canada, based on exactly what those quotes above mention. People want to have the ability to free themselves and for the most part, they don't where they just immigrated from. Either the government controls everything or to even consider owning a business they either have to know somebody or grease everyone's palm because of all the corruption (government and/or underground elements). So my 'intelligence' or 'experience' on the subject is based on my current conversations with people that have actually lived it.

How many do you know from Venezuela?

quote:

They probably had problems because they didn't know how to handle themselves without the government telling them how to! I thought it was her tax policy that landed her in hot water?

Don't get me wrong, she was very popular in certain sections of society (ie the middle and upper classes) but when she dies there will be massive parties all over the country! Her economic polices crippled the country and she would have been voted were it not for the Falklands War.

quote:

Ask yourself why Hugo figures he needs to extend the (his) presidential term indefinitely? The only one who benefits (other than the welfare people he's propping up) is him. How is that not a step towards dictatorship? That coupled with all the nationalization he has been doing, one would have to be blind not to see where this is all going.

But why can every other country elect heads indefinately but not Venezuela?! I don't understand why this policy is OK for other countries but when ones you don't agree with do it it's dictatorship? He has to be elected like he has every other time. I honestly can't see your problem, and you keep referring to the people he's "propping up". What right do you have to dictate to the MAJORITY in Venezuela who they should have as leader and what economic policies they chose to implement?

quote:

Being chums with Castro should be another tip off since he's pretty much emulating him anyways. Hugo will continue so long as the oil that's providing him with his funds keep coming in. As soon as the bottom falls out on oil prices, he'll collapse like a deck o'cards as soon as 'his people' fail to see their welfare cheques reaching their mailboxes...

Well until that time don't you think it's their decision and not yours?

quote:

I will admit, I'm not a huge fan of socialist policies but there are just so many examples of why it just doesn't work properly. I'm not going to say it never works because obviously there are example of countries that use it well enough; Sweden anyone? Sure it's going fine now (if you can call it 'fine') but the whole economic structure of Venezuela is now based on Hugo's government, so long as people support him and no one else. As soon as that collapses, they're in for a world of hurt. They have nothing to fall back on and can't rely on the net of private businesses to step up when all the business are getting fed from the same source. Just look at what happened to Cuba after the U.S.S.R. collapsed and the Cuban government stopped getting their communist-card-carrying subsidies. One of the first things Castro did was nationalize their Cigar industry in an attempt to fill the sucking black hole in his wallet. People should not have to look to their government for their financial well being; it should be there to foster it, not provide it.

Basically, your whole critique of Chavez is borne not out of an educated analysis you have conducted that suggests Venezuela is a dictatorship, but a fear and hatred of an economic system you have no knowledge of, and when combined with the prejudice preached by your idols in America, lead you to equate, falsely, socialism with dictatorship.

good debate people. well, until this part:

quote:

Originally posted by Fir3start3r The steps in between the two are small.

i know you like your economic conservatism, but saying shit like that is a tad silly

i know nothing about venezuela. i agree with george about indefinite terms for leaders coz that's what im used to. i am also a fan of the mixed economy. but i have no doubt chavez is probably up to no good on some level. but i dont think he's another mugabe- he's a special arsehole all by himself.

Article in today's Guardian about Chavez:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...2150655,00.html

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Article in today's Guardian about Chavez:

Ah, the Guardian...pinnacle of objectivity

quote:

Originally posted by venomX hey! I found a pic of "democracy" under Bush...

No doubt someone in their is wearing a Che shirt...the irony...

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt Ah, the Guardian...pinnacle of objectivity

Great critique! So in depth! Just like your picture.

quote:

Originally posted by venomX Great critique! So in depth! Just like your picture.

It just never fails to amaze me how lefties will praise and defend the most tyrannical people on earth as long as they utter the words "for socialism comrades!" every now and then. Its pointless to seriously debate these people because they obviously couldn't care less about the evil they are supporting. The religion of the left is THE STATE, and any politician who believes in expanding it "for socialism!" gets guaranteed support, regardless of their behavior or methods.

quote:

Originally posted by Capitalizt It just never fails to amaze me how lefties will praise and defend the most tyrannical people on earth as long as they utter the words "for socialism comrades!" every now and then. Its pointless to seriously debate these people because they obviously couldn't care less about the evil they are supporting. The religion of the left is THE STATE, and any politician who believes in expanding it "for socialism!" gets guaranteed support, regardless of their behavior or methods.

Yes lets instead champion the cause of the corporations to control our lives instead of the people we elect to do it!

Seriously mate, you need to get that hole in your brain looked at...

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