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Originally posted by Krypton there is a Saudi theological monarchy is SPECIFICALLY because the US needs Saudi oil, which is the country with the #1 reserve of proven oil reserve in the world. The US in other words, supports the Saudi regime..

really? did you know we import roughly the same amount of oil from Venezuela than we do from the Sauds?

what do you think that does to your logic?

Krypton, just hear me out. I will openly admit that I don't have any proof to what I'll post, and that it's mainly my own theory on the matter.
Let me know if you want me to start such a thread.

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Originally posted by CHRles Purple, do you mind if I start a new thread about Saudi Arabia, and my take on the rulers of that country?

I dont mind, go ahead..

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Originally posted by Q5echo really? did you know we import roughly the same amount of oil from Venezuela than we do from the Sauds?

And???????????????

Erase our imports of Saudi oil ALONE, and you cripple the US economy.

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what do you think that does to your logic?

Absolutely nothing because your point is irrelevant. Saudi oil is still a top priority of the US. Period...

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Originally posted by CHRles Krypton, just hear me out. I will openly admit that I don't have any proof to what I'll post, and that it's mainly my own theory on the matter. Let me know if you want me to start such a thread.

Do you know how difficult it is to debate when no sources are used to support arguments? It can be done, but when it comes to push n shove, sources just make any argument that much more credible, and ALWAYS trumps a non-sourced argument.

I suggest you begin to use sources to support your theories, so we will be more receptive to whatever you have to say. Otherwise, most of us will remain skeptical.

It won't be a push n shove theory, and won't have much to do with the US. Still interested?

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Originally posted by Purple I dont mind, go ahead..

Thank, will do

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Originally posted by Krypton Do you know how difficult it is to debate when no sources are used to support arguments? It can be done, but when it comes to push n shove, sources just make any argument that much more credible, and ALWAYS trumps a non-sourced argument. I suggest you begin to use sources to support your theories, so we will be more receptive to whatever you have to say. Otherwise, most of us will remain skeptical.

But in the end, everyone is entitled to an opinion. Whether or not they convince anyone else that there opinion is right, well that's when sources are helpful.

All I'm saying is that sources to back up opinions help A LOT.

Chrles, post ur theory. THe "push to shove" is when the debate gets heated, long, and stalled. That is when sources help to break that cycle.

Otherwise, debates just become flame fests..

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Originally posted by Krypton Erase our imports of Saudi oil ALONE, and you cripple the US economy.

OMG...and thats the basis for your US/Saudi Royal family hegemony theory?

Saudi oil represents 9% of the total oil used in this country. however, Saudi exports to the US are far greater a percentage of their total. that kinda negates any notion that the US has a need to control the sales aspect of Saudi oil.

my point was that oil is oil no matter who the oil companies purchase it from.

Saudi oil is very unique. it has a market value based on the simple laws of supply and demand that is the standard to which all other oils are based. it is in the Saudi's best interest to sell it to as many people as they can. and they do. regardless of who they are in the world politically. eliminate Saudi oil and EVERYONE will pay.

quote:

Saudi oil is still a top priority of the US. Period...

protecting all of the oil over there and it's access is in the world's best interest.

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Originally posted by Q5echo OMG...and thats the basis for your US/Saudi Royal family hegemony theory? Saudi oil represents 9% of the total oil used in this country. however, Saudi exports to the US are far greater a percentage of their total. that kinda negates any notion that the US has a need to control the sales aspect of Saudi oil. my point was that oil is oil no matter who the oil companies purchase it from. Saudi oil is very unique. it has a market value based on the simple laws of supply and demand that is the standard to which all other oils are based. it is in the Saudi's best interest to sell it to as many people as they can. and they do. regardless of who they are in the world politically. eliminate Saudi oil and EVERYONE will pay.

I never said the US has a need to control Saudi oil sales because they don't control it. I'm saying there is a special relationship between the US and Saudi Arabia, based on oil. Saudi Arabia obviously lacks in human rights, but because of this special relationship, they have been immune to critique by US government, meanwhile country's like Cuba, which compares little in commodity power to the Saudi's, get embargoed specifically because of "human rights". China too. It's hypocritical.

We need to treat all nations the same. How we should treat them is in a spirit of peace. Not embargoes, wars, and coup attempts..

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Originally posted by Krypton We need to treat all nations the same. How we should treat them is in a spirit of peace. Not embargoes, wars, and coup attempts..

I'm sure they were chanting Beatles songs like "Give Peace A Chance" and "All We Need Is Love" when they were storming the US embassy in
Tehran, or when terrorists seized control of those 4 American airplanes on 9/11.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton country's like Cuba, which compares little in commodity power to the Saudi's, get embargoed specifically because of "human rights". China too. It's hypocritical. We need to treat all nations the same. How we should treat them is in a spirit of peace. Not embargoes, wars, and coup attempts..

Castro is a piece of shit and he deserves an embargo. Castro sent that country down the shitter for his own narrow reasons.

learn your history. we didn't just one day up and say "hey guys, lets embargo the Cubans because we're big ugly Amerikkkans!"

the reasons for the embargo began when their new governmwent systematically siezed all US assets that had been there for decades.
Castro siezed EVERYTHING for his own. we didn't start banning imports until 1960.

the missle crisis and his love for the Soviets didn't help either.

again, get some perspective

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Originally posted by Q5echo protecting all of the oil over there and it's access is in the world's best interest.

You mean CONTROLLING the oil over there is in the "world's" best interest

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Originally posted by CHRles I'm sure they were chanting Beatles songs like "Give Peace A Chance" and "All We Need Is Love" when they were storming the US embassy in Tehran, or when terrorists seized control of those 4 American airplanes on 9/11.

The US embassy deserved to be stormed.. Read the following and ask yourself, how would you react if a foreign country did this to your president from an embassy in washington?

"""From 1952-53, Iran's democratically elected nationalist Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadeq began a period of rapid power consolidation, which led the Shah, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, to a brief exile and then into power again. Much of the events of 1952 were started by Mossadeq�s nationalization of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, now British Petroleum. Established by the British in the early 20th century, an agreement had been made to share profits (85% British-15% Iran), but the company withheld their financial records from the Iranian government. Due to alleged profit monopolization by the Anglo-Iranian Oil company, the Iranian Parliament had unanimously agreed to nationalize its holding of, what was at the time, the British Empire�s largest company.

The United States and Britain, through a now-admitted covert operation of the CIA called Operation Ajax, conducted from the US Embassy in Tehran, helped organize protests to overthrow Moussadeq and return the Shah to Iran. The operation failed and the Shah fled to Italy. After a second successful operation he returned from his brief exile. Iran's fledgling attempts at democracy quickly descended into dictatorship, as the Shah dismantled the constitutional limitations on his office and began to rule as an absolute monarch.

During his reign, the Shah received significant American support, frequently making state visits to the White House and earning praise from numerous American Presidents. The Shah's close ties to Washington and his bold agenda of rapidly Westernizing Iran soon began to infuriate certain segments of the Iranian population, especially the hardline Islamic conservatives. Because of their eventual ascension to power during the 1979 Revolution, Operation Ajax is considered as one of the worst CIA "blowbacks" ever."""
wikipedia
--------------------------------

Now about peace.

"""Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none; the support of the State governments in all their rights, as the most competent administrations for our domestic concerns and the surest bulwarks against antirepublican tendencie""" -Thomas Jefferson
http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres16.html

If we conduct ourselves in the manner real republicans, the old skool republicans like thomas jefferson, nobody would want to attack or act out in hatred towards us.

Half the country doesn't even believe 911 was real. And we are in some of the most precipitous times right now because of messes we get into. When are people like you going to wake up and realize this isn't the vision our founding fathers had for our nation. WAKE UP!

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Originally posted by CHRles I'm sure they were chanting Beatles songs like "Give Peace A Chance" and "All We Need Is Love" when they were storming the US embassy in Tehran, or when terrorists seized control of those 4 American airplanes on 9/11.

You are a piece of shit.

There were candle light vigils lit mourning the americans that lost their lives in NYC after 9/11 in Tehran.

Get Bush's fist out of your ass..

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Originally posted by Cyrus King You mean CONTROLLING the oil over there is in the "world's" best interest

How does the American government "CONTROL" the oil?

it sounds super cool, but really...how?

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Originally posted by Q5echo How does the American government "CONTROL" the oil? it sounds super cool, but really...how?

I know you're smarter than that.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo Castro is a piece of shit and he deserves an embargo. learn your history. we didn't just one day up and say "lets embargo the Cubans!" the reasons for the embargo began when their new governmwent systematically siezed US assets that had been there for decades Castro siezed EVERYTHING for his own. we didn't start banning imports until 1960. the missle crisis and his love for the Soviets didn't help either. again, get some perspective

You learn what self-determination really means. You support so strongly our commercial interests even when our interests collide with other nations on their territory. Please inform yourself on the philosophy of our founding fathers, international law, and then ask yourself why we have forsaken these principles. Everything ain't hunky dory in America, people need to wake the fuck up..

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton The Shah's close ties to Washington and his bold agenda of rapidly Westernizing Iran soon began to infuriate certain segments of the Iranian population, especially the hardline Islamic conservatives.

There you have it.
BTW, the Americans who were at the US embassy in 1979 didn't deserve to be treated the way they were.
Furthermore, if you're going to start using wikipedia as a source then get ready cuz I've got some links that will blow your mind.
you keep talking about the Palestinian cause. You keep talking about how the Middle East doesnt need the US. I've got overwhelming proof that says it does, and I'd be happy to share that with you.

One last thing, where on earth did you come up with the notion that only half of all Americans believe 9/11 was real????

quote:

Originally posted by Cyrus King There were candle light vigils lit mourning the americans that lost their lives in NYC after 9/11 in Tehran. Get Bush's fist out of your ass..

WTF does Bush have to do with all of this? It was an attack on America not on Bush. Get your Bush-hating out of your fist.

The only places where you saw people happy about 9/11 were in Afghanistan, a bunch of stupid kids in Gaza.
I was replying to Krypton that you can't always sit idly by and communicate a message of peace with others when they terrorize you. Bin Laden and his men did just that, or do you not believe like Krypton that 9/11 happened?

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Everything ain't hunky dory in America, people need to wake the fuck up..

No one's saying everything is perfect in America, but believe me that many of the problems in the Middle East aren't b/c of America.

Finally someone to recognize it , Cia is a terrorist organization that was repsponsible for all the civilian targeting in Serbia and later Iraq and they do sponsor and train terrorist groups. They have global reach and are bent on world domination. Hopefully it won't stay on words only and someone will stop their rampage and put them in place

quote:

Originally posted by CHRles There you have it.

WOw, this just show your complete lack of any understanding persian or middle eastern culture. Stop thinking about the region through your western eyes and think from their point of view. In America, the Christian right wing forms the base of the republican party, so if you want think over what you just said please be my guest..

quote:

BTW, the Americans who were at the US embassy in 1979 didn't deserve to be treated the way they were.

I don't think the Iranians deserved to be treated the way they were. Your one-sided all around. You don't give a fuck about Iranians, or arabs. You just care that america in all it does is right 100%. IT IS NOT. Commercial empires will crash and burn on their own mistakes. And we keep fucking making them!! Think about it! If there is a problem, FIX IT! Don't defend our mistakes...

quote:

Furthermore, if you're going to start using wikipedia as a source then get ready cuz I've got some links that will blow your mind.

Wikipedia is by far the easiest source of information. If you have a problem with the history I just posted, then argue against it. I can certainly go to another source and post the EXACT SAME THING. You are just trying to detract from the argument because YOU KNOW that the west has been fucking up the Iranian government and people since before world war I. THat is what I'm trying to make clear to you. You seem to just be plugging up your ears singing "lalalala". Take your hands off your ears and listen for one freaking second..

And you never answered my question when I asked, "Ask yourself, what if this happened to your own country in Washington." What if a foreign country launched a coup from their embassy in washington to oust our president. How would you react?

I'de be pretty mightily pissed.

quote:

you keep talking about the Palestinian cause. You keep talking about how the Middle East doesnt need the US. I've got overwhelming proof that says it does, and I'd be happy to share that with you.

LOL, provide me proof that the Middle East wants to be occupied by the west. Please, I'm waiting. In fact, I'm going to argue against your "proof" before you even lay it down.

First of all, it's obvious you didn't even take 1 second to comprehend the principles of the post on peace, so read it over. This is how we are supposed to conduct ourselves with the world..

quote:

Now about peace. """Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none; the support of the State governments in all their rights, as the most competent administrations for our domestic concerns and the surest bulwarks against antirepublican tendencie""" -Thomas Jefferson http://www.bartleby.com/124/pres16.html If we conduct ourselves in the manner real republicans, the old skool republicans like thomas jefferson, nobody would want to attack or act out in hatred towards us.

AND SELF-DETERMINATION

quote:

You learn what self-determination really means. You support so strongly our commercial interests even when our interests collide with other nations on their territory. Please inform yourself on the philosophy of our founding fathers, international law, and then ask yourself why we have forsaken these principles. Everything ain't hunky dory in America, people need to wake the fuck up..

Don't let these peaceful democratic ideals fly over you head. This is true republicanism, not the republicanism of today. The repub party is now the neocon party, and you should defect from this currupted party..

quote:

One last thing, where on earth did you come up with the notion that only half of all Americans believe 9/11 was real????

Oh my bad, it's 30-40% of americans.. LOL, AND? A HUGE number of Americans suspect the neocon faction of the government had something to do with 911. NORAD takes 10 minutes to scramble and meet any threat in the air and does routinely throughout the year. Are you going to tell me that OSama had NORAD stand downs for the 2 hours the hijacked planes were known to be hi-jacked?

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/natio...piracy02ww.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14723997/
http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-...-9_b_31299.html

Pearl Harbor was 100% believable, and so america's entry into world war II was justified. 911 has so many questions in it yet to be answered, it's unbelievable by a third of this country. That is a large number.

quote:

Originally posted by erdega Finally someone to recognize it , Cia is a terrorist organization that was repsponsible for all the civilian targeting in Serbia and later Iraq and they do sponsor and train terrorist groups. They have global reach and are bent on world domination. Hopefully it won't stay on words only and someone will stop their rampage and put them in place

Serbia was responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of people in Bosnia so shut up.

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