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-- With Regards To Saudi Arabia
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Originally posted by Q5echo from you that seems about right. heres a polite F**K YOU and what you think is signifigant. twat.

How is what happened before 9/11 significant to today's climate?

I know Americans hate Hizballah because they got their arse kicked by them in Beirut and ran home with their tails between their legs but Christ man, that was a quarter of a century ago! Get over it!

What is significant today is international terrorism as practiced by al-Qaida to devestating effect in 2001. That is the threat.

How is Iran posing a threat on the scale of al-Qaida in 2001?

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Originally posted by George Smiley Get over it!

241 Marines killed in their sleep on a UN peacekeeping mission and where the hell is Lebanon today?

Iran hasn't gotten over anything. they're not going to. what Iran does in the Middle East is not being marginalized over the years, it's becoming prevalent. it's the status quo now. and it's not because of Iraq, it's just because they can. you won't stop them but you'll piss and moan about other injustice in the ME.

you won't even give Iran a second thought. not because you might be able to feign concern over terror, but because you just plain don't like Israel and America. i don't care really just don't tell me what Iran does to other people is insignifigant.

FFS dude you were crying about something that happened in Palestine 50 years ago last week and youre not Palestinian

and besides you don't want to understand anything American so piss off.

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How is Iran posing a threat on the scale of al-Qaida in 2001?

they want to go nuclear. tell me they don't want to go nuclear

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Originally posted by Q5echo 241 Marines killed in their sleep on a UN peacekeeping mission and where the hell is Lebanon today?

Irrelevant to today's very real threat of international terrorism facing the West unfortunately

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Iran hasn't gotten over anything. they're not going to. what Iran does in the Middle East is not being marginalized over the years, it's becoming prevalent. it's the status quo now. and it's not because of Iraq, it's just because they can. you won't stop them but you'll piss and moan about other injustice in the ME.

This thread is about Saudi Arabia. My point was Saudi Arabia poses a very dangerous terrorist threat to the West - Iran does not. I am not praising or defending Iran. I am making a very valid point that Saudi Arabia poses a threat, yet is friends with America, but Iran poses no terrorist threat to the West, but we are told they are the number one enemy - my point is that should be Saudi Arabia

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you won't even give Iran a second thought. not because you might be able to feign concern over terror, but because you just plain don't like Israel and America. i don't care really just don't tell me what Iran does to other people insignifigant

It's insignificant in the context I am talking about, sorry but that is true. We live in the post-9/11 world, not the Cold War world. We face a threat from terrorism, that threat is greatest from Saudi involvement not Iranian involvement. Accusing me of hating America or Israel is a lazy (and ineffective) way of find a way to criticise what I am saying when you can't think of any valid arguments.

This thread is about Saudi Arabia, the domestic situation and the international threat it poses. My comparison with Iran is to highlight my views on Saudi Arabia, not to "praise" Iran or to show "hatred" for Israel or America as you seem to think

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and besides you don't want to understand anything American so piss off.

When you have to resort to pathetic outbursts like this, then I know you're nowhere near winning any debate

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they want to go nuclear. tell me they don't want to go nuclear

To be honest I wouldn't consider a nuclear Iran a threat to the West, only to Israel. I don't know whether Iran wants nukes, imo, probably, but this thread is about Saudi Arabia, so why don't you give me your views on that like I asked earlier...

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Originally posted by George Smiley I know Americans hate Hizballah because they got their arse kicked by them in Beirut and ran home with their tails between their legs but Christ man, that was a quarter of a century ago! Get over it!

hmmmmmm, catching them while they slept??? How is that?? But then again, you don't have a problem with anything the pedo loving Jihadist do, like Hide inside a church, use women and children as shields and oh lets not for get, the bombing ff markets, labor sites and so forth..... yeah they are really Hardcore and a group all should idolize.....

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX hmmmmmm, catching them while they slept??? How is that?? But then again, you don't have a problem with anything the pedo loving Jihadist do, like Hide inside a church, use women and children as shields and oh lets not for get, the bombing ff markets, labor sites and so forth..... yeah they are really Hardcore and a group all should idolize.....

What the fuck are you on about?!

Have you not read ANYTHING I wrote in this thread about al-Qaida?

Actually, seeing as you hate Muslims so much, perhaps you'd like to give your opinion on the topic of this thread - Saudi Arabia?

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX the pedo loving Jihadist

Would I be correct in thinking that you're a Catholic? You know where this is going don't you...

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Irrelevant to today's very real threat of international terrorism facing the West unfortunately

it's quite relevant to international terror. when proxy armies can kill at will democratically elected secular officials without any recourse, it's a threat to all democracies. it should never go unchallenged by the West.

whats unfortunate is this thinking that nothing would ever come from ignoring a country like Iran.

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My point was Saudi Arabia poses a very dangerous terrorist threat to the West

the government of Saudi Arabia obviously isn't. what would that do to your Saudi oil/Amerikkka/world hegemony theory?

and if the house of Saud isn't a threat to the West then naturally it would be in their every interest to make sure that stability isn't itself threatened.

the Saudis don't want nukes either.

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To be honest I wouldn't consider a nuclear Iran a threat to the West, only to Israel.

ok who in this Administration is saying Iran is a threat specifically to America aside from our forces in Iraq? where are you getting this?

"only to Israel" see thatsmy point. you don't realize but your antipathy towards Israel and somewhat of America really does affect your point of view when it comes to larger picture. how it makes you view Iran is absolutely no exception.
'

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I don't know whether Iran wants nukes

if a Frenchman says they do and tells the world we need to do something about it then you should listen.

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Originally posted by Q5echo it's quite relevant to international terror. when proxy armies can kill at will democratically elected secular officials without any recourse, it's a threat to all democracies. it should never go unchallenged by the West. whats unfortunate is this thinking that nothing would ever come from ignoring a country like Iran.

It would only be relevant if Iranian sponsorship of terrorism were part of the wider international phenomenan of Sunni (al-Qaida) terrorism. It isn't, therefore, imo, Shiite terrorism is a localised phenomena and cannot be compared or linked to Sunni terrorism to justify policy against Iran (as it is currently)

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the government of Saudi Arabia obviously isn't.

You haven't read any of this thread have you? My point ALL THE WAY THROUGH is that the Saudi government IS a very dangerous threat to the West. Please go back and read my responses to CHRles about the "dual" government in Saudi Arabia because you "obviously" don't know anything about Saudi politics

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and if the house of Saud isn't a threat to the West then naturally it would be in their every interest to make sure that stability isn't itself threatened.

Other than their sponsorship of al-Qaida? And other Sunni terrorist groups (including ones that attack Israel)

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the Saudis don't want nukes either.

They don't need them when they have America's to protect them

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ok who in this Administration is saying Iran is a threat specifically to America aside from our forces in Iraq? where are you getting this?

Nobody is "specifically" saying that - that's the point! They are creating and promoting that impression by falsely claiming Iran is the greatest sponsor of terrorism in the world, trying to get their population and media to link 9/11 type terrorism to Irainian sponsored terrorism when there just is no link

quote:

"only to Israel" see thatsmy point. you don't realize but your antipathy towards Israel and somewhat of America really does affect your point of view when it comes to larger picture. how it makes you view Iran is absolutely no exception.

Israel is just another country to me, I have no feelings either way, they aren't our friend and they aren't our enemy, so it is not part of my culture, unlike yours, to formulate policy around their concerns. That doesn't mean I support attacks on Israel because I don't - I don't support any attacks on innocent civilians anywhere (the military however, is fair cop as they are an occupying force and I oppose the occupation). Israel is a strategic ally of America, but not of the UK or EU, so while I understand America's concerns for Israel over Iran, don't expect me to agree with it.

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if a Frenchman says they do and tells the world we need to do something about it then you should listen.

Ok. But we are SPECIFICALLY talking about terrorism, because I am comparing the threat posed by Saudi Arabia to that posed by Iran (Saudi Arabia is the topic remember?) and that comparison can ONLY be made by terrorism

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Originally posted by George Smiley Would I be correct in thinking that you're a Catholic? You know where this is going don't you...

nope... I was not born into the "Great Babylon"

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Originally posted by LazFX nope... I was not born into the "Great Babylon"

Well there are an abundance of racist or xenophobic stereotypes I could use against you either way...

Oh and very well done for not addressing ANY points WHATSOEVER on this thread. You know fuck all about Saudi Arabia and even less about Iran so until a time that you do, why don't you keep your idiotic comments out of this thread, yea?

quote:

Originally posted by George Smiley Oh and very well done for not addressing ANY points WHATSOEVER on this thread. You know fuck all about Saudi Arabia and even less about Iran so until a time that you do, why don't you keep your idiotic comments out of this thread, yea?

YES!!

My only point on this thread is that in Saudi Arabia there is a "dual" government with equal power. The "good" half (under Abdullah) is allied to America and the two are extremely beneficial to the other, hence America bending over backwards to accomodate Abdullah and portray him alone as the Saudi government. But the "bad" half of the government (under Nayef) hates America, hates Israel and hates Iran. He adheres to Wahabi Islamic ideology which is the most extreme form of Islam there is along with Deobandism in Pakistan (these are the two ideologies adhered to by al-Qaida). Hamas and Hizballah, although right wing religionists, are no way near as extreme in their beliefs as the Wahabis in Saudi Arabia or al-Qaida.

I guess America likes to think of the "bad" fundamenatlist half of the government as not actually part of the government at all but merely as subversives, yet the fundamenatlists led by Nayef control domestic power. The religious police are the most extreme in the world (Iran's does not have anything on these guys - think Taliban), Nayef supports al-Qaida's aims and ideology and Saudi Princes loyal to Nayef provide funding and support directly to al-Qaida - and the reason I brought Iran up at all is because whereas Iran sponsors localised terrorist groups that do not, and probably will never, attack targets in the West, Saudi sponsored terrorism DOES attack targets in the West including the 9/11 attacks, making Saudi Sunni sponsored terrorism MUCH greater than Iranian sponsored terrorism ever will be...

quote:

Top Saudi Cleric Issues Warning By Michael Jacobson Earlier this week, Sheikh Abdel-Aziz Al-Asheikh � the most senior Wahhabi cleric in Saudi Arabia -- released a rather surprising religious edict. In this fatwa, the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia instructed Saudis not to leave the Kingdom to participate in jihad � a statement directed primarily at those considering going to Iraq. Al-Asheikh said that he decided to speak up, �after it was clear that over several years Saudis have been leaving for jihad� and that �our youth�became tools carrying out heinous acts.� Perhaps even most significantly, Al-Asheikh also addressed potential donors, urging them to �be careful about where [their money is] spent so it does not damage young Muslims.� Al-Asheikh�s fatwa stands out for several reasons. First, it helps corroborate a number of statements made recently by US government officials about terrorists and terrorist financing emanating from the Kingdom. � In a September 11, 2007 ABC News broadcast, Treasury Under Secretary Stuart Levey remarked that �If I could somehow snap my fingers and cut off the funding from one country [for terrorism], it would be Saudi Arabia.� Levey also criticized the Saudis for failing to prosecute terrorist financiers, calling on the Saudis to treat the financing of terrorism as �real terrorism because it is.� � In a July 2007 CNN interview, US ambassador to the UN Zalmay Khalilzad expanded on an earlier op-ed he had written in The New York Times, by accusing the Saudis (and others) of �not only not helping� the situation in Iraq, but of �doing things that undermine the efforts to make progress.� � In a June 2007 speech, Treasury Secretary Paulson cautioned that although the Saudis are "very effective at dealing with terrorists within the kingdom," the Saudis "need to do a better job holding people accountable who finance terrorism around the world." The Grand Mufti�s statements were also notable for another reason. The Saudis are generally reluctant to concede either that Saudi Arabia is a source of terrorism or that Saudi counterterrorism efforts are inadequate. For example, the Saudis quickly dismissed Khalilzad�s comments this summer. At a joint press conference with Secretaries Rice and Gates, Saudi Foreign Minister Saud al Faisal argued that the problem was not those leaving the Kingdom to fight in Iraq, but the reverse -- terrorists from Iraq entering Saudi Arabia. In response to Levey�s statements, the Saudis pointed to the steps they had taken to crack down on terrorist financing after September 11. The Saudis claimed that this included requiring Saudi banks to freeze the assets of terrorist suspects on the US blacklist. Finally, with the fatwa, al-Asheikh provided a rare glimpse of transparency into the effectiveness of Saudi efforts to combat terrorism and terrorist financing. The State Department�s 2006 �International Narcotics Control Strategy Report,� an annual report which covers money laundering and terrorist financing, gives a sense of the difficulties in assessing Saudi efforts from the outside. The report notes that: � A definitive determination on the scope of financial crimes in Saudi Arabia is difficult to make �because of the absence of official criminal statistics.� � Saudi Arabia�s �unwillingness� to provide statistics on its money laundering prosecutions �impedes the evaluation and design of enhancements to the judicial aspects of its [anti-money laundering] system.� � While the Saudis declared in 2002 that they were creating a commission to oversee Saudi charities with foreign operations, by the end of 2005, no announcements had yet been made as to the �structure, leadership or staffing.� The US Government was attempting to clarify these issues with the Saudi government. The Saudi�s secrecy is not helping their cause. When little information is available, statements by Saudi officials on the progress they are making against the terrorist threat have little credibility � even if there is truth to these remarks. At a recent hearing on the proposed US arms sale to Saudi Arabia, the congressional suspicion regarding the Kingdom was clear. For example, Republican congressman Dana Rohrabacher charged the Saudis to "prove they are not in a secret coalition with terrorists." If the Saudis are determined to change this perception, they must provide a far greater window into their efforts to combat terrorism � and terrorist financing specifically. Only when they demonstrate publicly that that they recognize the problems they are facing, and that they are taking steps to address these issues can they overcome these suspicions. The Grand Mufti�s fatwa is an important step forward in both respects, but there remains a long way to go. See �Time for Real TF Arrests� in Saudi Arabia,� by my colleague Matt Levitt, for a previous posting on problems with Saudi efforts to crack down on terrorist financing. October 3, 2007 11:55 AM Print

More reforms in the KSA:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7029308.stm

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