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Originally posted by Krypton Funny you say that.. We're currently OCCUPYING two countries and interfering in THEIR problems. Double logic kills..

so who's better?

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Originally posted by CHRles Cyrus, you might be a little confused with history. Native Americans were pushed back into reservations even 100 years ago. Read about states like Oklahoma, which only became a state exactly 100 years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma Or what about the India-Pakistan conflict a few decades later? Where a mass migration between Indians and Pakistanis was pretty much forced? That took on a dimension of tens of millions of people. Or you might want to study up about numerous countries in Africa where you have different tribes that ended up being split into 2-3 countries? Or about what happened in the Soviet Union where different ethnicites were moved around. As for the status Israel, it was put to a vote at the UN since the UK had a mandate over it, and was getting ready to leave the area. So the situation was adressed in the UN. Now then, as you stated, the UN originally alotted half the land of Israel to the Jews. This was accepted by the Jews, but not by the other side. A war ensued between Israel and ALL of its neighbors. After World War II and the holocaust the Arab states greatly underestimated the Jews. They fought hard to defend their newfound freedom, and they won. If you want to talk about more recent events that the UN hasnt approved why don't you talk about Turkey's invasion of Cyprus? Or Iraqs invasion of Kuwait? I wasnt going to get into this but since you brought it up...Christians seem to have no problem living in Israel. Lebanon on other hand is a bit of a sore topic since in the first half of the 20th century they were the majority there. This is due to a couple of things: The Levant region was always populated with some Christians going back to pretty much the time of Christ (although Jesus himself was a Jew). The second wave of Christianity in the Middle East happened during the crusades. The third wave was only a couple of hundreds of years ago when Christian missionaries made their way to the region.

If there were 6 million natives forced into mexico or canada after their province was alotted to lets say China...then i think there would be a very serious debate. The scenario you gave is quite different and almost trivial compared to the Palesitinian refugee crisis.

Also.. the UN was a 2 year old organization that was not experienced enough to handle this task that they empowered themselves on. ALso,, most of the world was not even in the UN by that time the "decision" was made to partition that land.

IF the UN decided to partition the West bank and Gaza strip and alot 56% more of what is left of Palestine.. to ISrael.. is that right???

IS IT THE UN'S LAND TO PARTITION THE WEST BANK AND GAZA???

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Originally posted by Q5echo so who's better?

Does it matter?

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Originally posted by venomX Does it matter?

to me, yes. immencely

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Originally posted by Q5echo so who's better?

Because we're better, we're allowed to occupy sovereign countries?

Why don't we take the high ground, and stop acting like imperialistic tools, and fucking talk to our "enemies". If they violate another nation's sovereigty (which Iran is not doing), then militarily take care of them. Why we don't follow this rule is beyond me, but is the central point in foreign policy with neocons. Preemption.

What countries are we invading? The US has liberated Afghanistan from the Taliban occupation, and liberated Iaq from superstar oppressor Sadam Hussein.

Appearantly other countries also see the US as a liberator on the issue of Iraq, like Azerbaijan:
http://www.meforum.org/article/987

Interesting to note that while the population of Azerbaijan hovers around 10 million, there are twice as many Azeris living in Iran...
Like Turkey, Azerbaijan is overwhelmingly Muslim, and has a democratic political system.

I guess when countries like Iran talk about growing Israeli presence and influence in the region this is who they're referring to. So far it's worked to Israel, Turkey, and America's advantage as far as oil goes, and has tremendously bolstered the Azerian economy.

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Originally posted by Krypton If they violate another nation's sovereigty (which Iran is not doing),

uhhh what? you ever heard of a little sovereign country called Lebanon? do you know how many secular politicians have been assasinated by car-bomb in this year alone by Iran's proxy armies?

get a clue kid. learn some stuff. you have a long way to go.

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Originally posted by Krypton Because we're better, we're allowed to occupy sovereign countries?

yes. with a little help from our freinds.

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Originally posted by Q5echo uhhh what? you ever heard of a little sovereign country called Lebanon? do you know how many secular politicians have been assasinated by car-bomb in this year alone by Iran's proxy armies?

Mind your own business and let them deal with their problems.Is that so hard for your tiny littl brain to understand?

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Originally posted by CHRles What countries are we invading? The US has liberated Afghanistan from the Taliban occupation, and liberated Iaq from superstar oppressor Sadam Hussein. Appearantly other countries also see the US as a liberator on the issue of Iraq, like Azerbaijan: http://www.meforum.org/article/987 Interesting to note that while the population of Azerbaijan hovers around 10 million, there are twice as many Azeris living in Iran... Like Turkey, Azerbaijan is overwhelmingly Muslim, and has a democratic political system. I guess when countries like Iran talk about growing Israeli presence and influence in the region this is who they're referring to. So far it's worked to Israel, Turkey, and America's advantage as far as oil goes, and has tremendously bolstered the Azerian economy.

Oh, so as long as we think we're liberating them, it's ok right? We are the laughing stock of the world right now because of the shit we pulled off in Iraq as CONQUERORS. Liberations are freeing the people from an occupier, not occupying the people!!

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uhhh what? you ever heard of a little sovereign country called Lebanon? do you know how many secular politicians have been assasinated by car-bomb in this year alone by Iran's proxy armies? get a clue kid. learn some stuff. you have a long way to go.

Learn stuff? Just as long as its neocon BULLSHIT right? kid...

Show me the source where you got the information that Iran is directly responsible for assassinations of Lebanese politicians. I'de really love to see it.. Then after you find that, find me the source that says, "Iran now occupying Lebanon"...THANK YOU.

Hezbollah is a grass roots organization of shiite muslims in Lebanon. Who the fuck do you expect them to reach out in support to? America? OF COURSE they're going to get support from shia Iran! And to think the US is innocent of any proxy warfare, are you that naive? I think YOU need to learn "stuff"..

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yes. with a little help from our freinds.

Other than the US and UK, how many combat personnel are in Iraq from other countries? This is a US/UK occupation, but to you, sovereignty don't mean shit, so I completely understand where your coming from. Unfortunately, you don't ever take the time to even try to understand the views contrary to your own. Which of course, mine would be a respect for sovereignty and self-determination. So Q5echo, when is this War on Terror going to end? When is victory going to be declared. Don't you realize this is an unwinnable war. It's like the drug war. To win, you have either kill all the druggies (anti-american muslims), or subjigate the druggies (occupation). But the reality is, you can never kill all the anti-american muslims, you can never subjigate them. They will always fight back, and you can never kill enough of them. This war is a distraction from our true enemy, which is debt-based consumerism with a fiat currency controlled by private individuals. Bravo neocons, bravo...

I don't know if Iran is beihnd the assasinations in Libya.
A couple of years ago the former Vice President of Syria went on record with a Dubai-based newschannel (which is owned by Saudis) stating that Bashar Assad was responsible for the death of Hariri.

Now I'd like to ask a question about the Palestinians that maybe Cyrus or hardcore trancer can help me out with. The issue with the palestinians is a burning one, and I do see it being resolved over time. Perhaps given enough time even the issue of Jerusalem will be worked out. My question is this: Since the West Bank is already by and large free, autonomous, ruled by palestinians, and has made strides to develop ties with all of its neighbors - why havent larger numbers of palestinians living in refugee camps in Lebanon or Syria migrated there? Even if they are waiting for the issue of right of return to be resolved, why havent they in the interim moved to the West Bank? Or why havent they at least moved to Jordan, where Palestinians are treated as equals (even the queen is of Palestinian origin, although she was born in Kuwait)?

Funny how Q5echo talks about Lebenon.If they are truly a friend of the U.S why the fuck did they allow Israel to bomb the livig shit out of them last year?

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Originally posted by CHRles I don't know if Iran is beihnd the assasinations in Libya. A couple of years ago the former Vice President of Syria went on record with a Dubai-based newschannel (which is owned by Saudis) stating that Bashar Assad was responsible for the death of Hariri.

That's why I'm asking Q and not you for the source, since he seems to be in the know...

Personally, I believe Syria may be behind the Hariri assassination. So should we invade Syria?

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Now I'd like to ask a question about the Palestinians that maybe Cyrus or hardcore trancer can help me out with. The issue with the palestinians is a burning one, and I do see it being resolved over time. Perhaps given enough time even the issue of Jerusalem will be worked out. My question is this: Since the West Bank is already by and large free, autonomous, ruled by palestinians, and has made strides to develop ties with all of its neighbors - why havent larger numbers of palestinians living in refugee camps in Lebanon or Syria migrated there? Even if they are waiting for the issue of right of return to be resolved, why havent they in the interim moved to the West Bank? Or why havent they at least moved to Jordan, where Palestinians are treated as equals (even the queen is of Palestinian origin, although she was born in Kuwait)?

I can answer that. Because the West Bank isn't free!! It's occupied by Israel! Check the legal status of the West Bank under international law? I mean, why don't you ever check your sources before just posting whatever???

{{{West Bank Legal Status
The West Bank is currently considered under international law to be de jure, a territory not part of any state. The United Nations Security Council,[25] the United Nations General Assembly,[26] the International Court of Justice,[27] and the International Committee of the Red Cross[28] refer to it as occupied by Israel.

According to Alan Dowty, legally the status of the West Bank falls under the international law of belligerent occupation, as distinguished from nonbelligerent occupation that follows an armistice. This assumes the possibility of renewed fighting, and affords the occupier "broad leeway". }}}wiki

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Funny how Q5echo talks about Lebenon.If they are truly a friend of the U.S why the fuck did they allow Israel to bomb the livig shit out of them last year?

To see if Israel could really destroy Hezbollah. LOL!!

Hezbollah is stronger than ever, and is even pouring MILLIONS into the Lebanese reconstruction effort. Great job Israel in displacing whole towns and destabilizing a country that just recovered for its own brutal civil war.

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Originally posted by Krypton Hezbollah is a grass roots organization of shiite muslims in Lebanon.

right, Hizbullah is the National Endowment for the Arts of Lebanon.

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Other than the US and UK, how many combat personnel are in Iraq from other countries?

currently? Poland, Australia and Denmark. all been there 2003.

many other countries have come and gone in other capacities. and i thank them for their courage and service.

Krypton, what sources have you that Hezbollah is stronger then ever? Nasrallah is still in hiding, isn't he?

And why havent you mentioned all the attacks of Hezbollah towards Israel, even going as far as to hit Haifa? Hundreds of rockets were fired into Israel.

As for the West Bank, it's for the most part not under Israeli control anymore, and will likely completely be free in a very short period of time (unless the Hamas intervenes with suicide bombings in Israel).

At least that's what I know or have read.

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Funny how Q5echo talks about Lebenon.If they are truly a friend of the U.S why the fuck did they allow Israel to bomb the livig shit out of them last year?

because Hizbullah are psychotic and stupid. thats pretty much it. seriously.

Israel does things to protect Israel. they often tell us they are going to do something (sometimes they don't. they never told us they were going to strike Saddam's Osirak reactor. in fact we helped write the UN resolution condemning the attack) but it's not like they get permission from us.

the surgical strike they did in August this year in Syria, we warned them to take their time to find better intel but they said f**k you and went ahead on their schedule.

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Originally posted by Q5echo right, Hizbullah is the National Endowment for the Arts of Lebanon.

We're talking about reconstruction.. You seem to have not studied Hezbollah at all beyond what our biased consumerist media have told you...

http://english.aljazeera.net/Englis...ArchiveId=36760
http://www.informationclearinghouse...rticle14672.htm
http://www.reuters.com/article/topN...110830320070221
http://www.boston.com/news/world/mi..._up_the_shovel/

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currently? Poland, Australia and Denmark. all been there 2003. many other countries have come and gone in other capacities. and i thank them for their courage and service.

I know who is there, my assertion is this is US/UK operation, mainly US. My question more clearly stated, "How many nations have troops in the country even remotely caparable to the US/UK?" Here is your answer..."Coalition of the Willing"

Overwhelmingly, the public sentiment all over the world is AGAINST this war. And major political leaders have been taking the fall for it. Tony Blair had to give up his PMship prematurely. Spain elected a new leader, John Howard of Australia is taking the fall too. You equate participation by non-US/UK (mostly humanitarian anways) as worldwide support for the war. SORRY, but no..

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Originally posted by CHRles And why havent you mentioned all the attacks of Hezbollah towards Israel, even going as far as to hit Haifa? Hundreds of rockets were fired into Israel. As for the West Bank, it's for the most part not under Israeli control anymore, and will likely completely be free in a very short period of time (unless the Hamas intervenes with suicide bombings in Israel). At least that's what I know or have read.

Did you even read the West Bank's legal status by internation law!?!?!?

GOD, it's like I'm talking to a brick wall!!

Read it again...

quote:

{{{West Bank Legal Status The West Bank is currently considered under international law to be de jure, a territory not part of any state. The United Nations Security Council,[25] the United Nations General Assembly,[26] the International Court of Justice,[27] and the International Committee of the Red Cross[28] refer to it as occupied by Israel. According to Alan Dowty, legally the status of the West Bank falls under the international law of belligerent occupation, as distinguished from nonbelligerent occupation that follows an armistice. This assumes the possibility of renewed fighting, and affords the occupier "broad leeway". }}}wiki

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Krypton, what sources have you that Hezbollah is stronger then ever? Nasrallah is still in hiding, isn't he?

Please, read the links in my previous post to Q. Hezbollah has restocked its weapons arsenal and is helping in the Lebanese reconstruction. DO you know how much flak Olmert got because the Israeli operation SPECIFICALLY failed to put a dent in Hezbollah...? I can find the sources for everything I say, if you don't believe me. That goes for every one of my posts..

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Originally posted by hardcore trancer Funny how Q5echo talks about Lebenon.If they are truly a friend of the U.S why the fuck did they allow Israel to bomb the livig shit out of them last year?

Krypton, why did you laugh when you said we should have attacked Syria? After Hariri was assasinated both Saudi Arabia and France were awfully pissed at Syria. Hariri was a close personal friend of both the Saudi royal family and the former president of France. There was talk of a war with Syria, but Syria pulled its troops out of Lebanon. The only real power they had left in Lebanon was via Hezbollah. Read on...

Lebanon was in a catch 22 with regards to the war with israel. Their army is pretty weak, otherwise Hezbollah wouldn't have gotten to be as powerful as it did.
B/c the Lebanese army is weak and is no match for Hezbollah then it was certainly no match for the IDF. At the same time, b/c Hezbollah is part of the Lebanse government, Israel blamed Lebanon rather then just Hezbollah for attacks into its territory.
Furthermore, parts of the Lebanese government hoped that with Israel fighting Hezbollah it would mean less of of a Syrian grip on the country.
Notice that Israel by and large only attacked Hezbollah strongholds in southern Lebanon, and southern Beirut.

As for the strike on Syria a couple of months ago, the British media insists the target was some sort of nuclear facility in Syria. Furthermore, Israel supposedly used some new technology and were able to enter Syrian airspace undetected.
Hillary Clinton has already said she fully supports Israel in whatever it is Israel did. Now it appears that Assad is now seriously thinking of having Syria attending the peace summit which will soon take place.
While Israel would be reluctant to give up the Golan Heights, I believe that in exchange for peace with Syria that will happen.

PS you are quite correct in stating that Israel's PM, Ehud Olmert, got a lot of slack for the handling of the war in Lebanon. It wasn't so much his fault as it was that of the former head of the IDF, as well as Israel's former minister of defense. They've now both been replaced with more capable men.

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Originally posted by CHRles Krypton, why did you laugh when you said we should have attacked Syria?

Because you, Q, and latinlover are war apologists. So saying Syria was responsible for Hariri's assassination, I asked you, should we invade Syria? Laughing because I know you 3 would love Syria to be invaded in a heartbeat..

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Originally posted by CHRles PS you are quite correct in stating that Israel's PM, Ehud Olmert, got a lot of slack for the handling of the war in Lebanon. It wasn't so much his fault as it was that of the former head of the IDF, as well as Israel's former minister of defense. They've now both been replaced with more capable men.

Oh, so your basically saying the policy was right, just not the tactics? LOL...Lebanon got bombed back to the 1800's, and the stated goal of the invasion was to destroy Hezbollah. Did it work? Hell no!

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Originally posted by Krypton We're talking about reconstruction..

oh. i was talking about their paramilitary wing that assasinates elected leaders of Parliament and incite war with it's neighbors using equipment, weapons, tactics, personel and funding from the IRGC. sorry

I'd say it worked out pretty well in the end.
The Lebanese got the UN to send an army to decrease the power of Hezbollah. Furthermore the Lebanese army has been granted more fundings and trainings to strengthen it. A few months back the Lebanese army fought off terrorists in a palestinian refugee camp in northern Lebanon.

And Hezbollah? Scared shitless. Nasrallah just the other day "warned" Arab countries not to attend the peace summit, and even blamed Israel for the assasinations in Lebanon. Now that truly is funny

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/06/w...lah&oref=slogin

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