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-- A dystopian future
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Originally posted by Trancer-X What do you mean, like smokin' a spliff?

Sure, whatever works. Weed is truly a gift that we can't ignore, especially since our species has done it for so long either directly or indirectly that our body systems have adapted specific receptors to utilize and augment the plant's natural compounds.

I was thinking more along the lines of having a little bit of randomness in your day and schedule and routine, however you might go about attaining that.

Your suggestion sounds fun though, let's do it.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov If you ask me, I think you will see the overall decline of the nation-state as countries give up sovereignty to over-arching transnational entities and privatized corporations that specialize in the functions of government. Corporations like Blackwater, Aegis, Halliburton, etc. will become providers of security, welfare, healthcare, and education and will replace the state as semi-autonomous entities within an over-arching global governance system....

Some really great points in there, many of which I agree with. My problem with many of the dystopian outlooks is that they present a vast, puppet master-like totalitarian state. History has proved time and again that these states collapse relatively quickly and that this trend of corporate power is rising far quicker than political power.

The point is, if the US were to become a totalitarian state even 20 years in the future, this would mean a shocking turn in our political system, which even the dimmest of Americans would notice. A revolt, or more likely, state secession would occur and the totalitarian system would very quickly collapse.

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Originally posted by kush paintings Some really great points in there, many of which I agree with. My problem with many of the dystopian outlooks is that they present a vast, puppet master-like totalitarian state. History has proved time and again that these states collapse relatively quickly and that this trend of corporate power is rising far quicker than political power. The point is, if the US were to become a totalitarian state even 20 years in the future, this would mean a shocking turn in our political system, which even the dimmest of Americans would notice. A revolt, or more likely, state secession would occur and the totalitarian system would very quickly collapse.

The problem is, though - is that the one major point that Huxley really tried to make in Brave New World is that people can be conditioned to accept a totalitarian government without even realizing that they are living under it's rule. People will be willing to accept Big Brother just so long as their basic material needs are taken care of.

That's what I think we're seeing happen today with an increasing number of individuals making the justification for an ever encroaching, growingly totalitarian, surveillance style police state.

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"A really efficient totalitarian state would be one in which the all powerful executive of political bosses and their army of managers control a population of slaves that do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude. To make them love it is the task assigned, in present-day totalitarian states, to ministries of propaganda, newspaper editors, and school teachers..." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World

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Originally posted by kush paintings The point is, if the US were to become a totalitarian state even 20 years in the future, this would mean a shocking turn in our political system, which even the dimmest of Americans would notice. A revolt, or more likely, state secession would occur and the totalitarian system would very quickly collapse.

Unless it was under the guise of national security, i.e. another false-flag, errr, I mean terrorist attack.




Wake up Call - Watch for another 9/11-WMD experience



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gNy4V1eAGQ

You do not have a totalitarian state in the US today. Yes, there is a proliferation of spying and mass invasion of privacy, but there is still a forum for free discussion. I don't believe the US will ever reach that point where free discussion is altogether banned. I think Huxley was on to some great things, and was truly a visionary, but I do not believe a powerful state is needed to enslave people when the majority of the population already are willing to enslave themselves to corporations. Ideas need not be banned when, for example, corporations will only hire college students with economics degrees. College education becomes only a resume builder, while philosophy, sociology and the like are taken by fewer and fewer students. You don't need a government to do all of this. You simply need a society obsessed with consumerism and a strong corporate base where power is consolidated into the hands of a few elite.

One government, one currency, one religion, one leader...

""For more than a century ideological extremists at either end of the the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents ... to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it."

- David Rockefeller, "Memoirs" autobiography (2002, Random House publishers), page 405 "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLFBUrHPmNM

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Paul Craig Roberts, a Republican who worked in the Reagan administration, is predicting a 9-11 type of attack before the 2008 elections. If that occurs, Bush can declare martial law and begin arresting those who disagree with his foreign policy (based on Executive Orders recently issued by the Bush Administration that grant the president these powers and more.)

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Originally posted by kush paintings You do not have a totalitarian state in the US today. Yes, there is a proliferation of spying and mass invasion of privacy, but there is still a forum for free discussion. I don't believe the US will ever reach that point where free discussion is altogether banned. I think Huxley was on to some great things, and was truly a visionary, but I do not believe a powerful state is needed to enslave people when the majority of the population already are willing to enslave themselves to corporations. Ideas need not be banned when, for example, corporations will only hire college students with economics degrees. College education becomes only a resume builder, while philosophy, sociology and the like are taken by fewer and fewer students. You don't need a government to do all of this. You simply need a society obsessed with consumerism and a strong corporate base where power is consolidated into the hands of a few elite.

Sure, but that's kind of like saying, "don't worry because their totalitarian puzzle isn't fully completed yet" when in fact it's really only missing just a few small pieces.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLFBUrHPmNM

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"Americans think that their danger is terrorists. They don't understand that the terrorists cannot take away Habeus Corpus, the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, they can't suspend our Constitutional government, the separation of powers, they can't pick them up or shut them up or pick them up and arrest them. The terrorists are not anything like the threat that we face to the Bill of Rights and the Constitution from our own government - in the name of fighting terrorism. American's just aren't able to perceive that, or at least not enough of them are..." - Paul Craig Roberts

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Paul Craig Roberts is an economist and a nationally syndicated columnist for Creators Syndicate. He served as an Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan Administration earning fame as the "Father of Reaganomics". He is a former editor and columnist for the Wall Street Journal, Business Week, and Scripps Howard News Service. He is a graduate of the Georgia Institute of Technology and he holds a Ph.D. from the University of Virginia. He was a post-graduate at the University of California, Berkeley, and Oxford University where he was a member of Merton College. In 1992 he received the Warren Brookes Award for Excellence in Journalism. In 1993 the Forbes Media Guide ranked him as one of the top seven journalists in the United States [1].

I don't understand some of your beliefs Trancer-x. States are more powerful than ever, since FDR's new deal created cooperative federalism. New federalism has enabled states to take on welfare (thanks to clinton, oddly enough), education, and taxes. Individuals are now closer to their local and state governments more than ever! The federal government really doesn't have the power that it used to have. You can throw all of the quotes, videos and wikipedia articles you want, but conspiracy theories aside, our federal government is giving more power to the states, so issues will be dealt with according to the local governments demographic.

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Originally posted by Marc Summers I don't understand some of your beliefs Trancer-x. States are more powerful than ever, since FDR's new deal created cooperative federalism. New federalism has enabled states to take on welfare (thanks to clinton, oddly enough), education, and taxes. Individuals are now closer to their local and state governments more than ever! The federal government really doesn't have the power that it used to have. You can throw all of the quotes, videos and wikipedia articles you want, but conspiracy theories aside, our federal government is giving more power to the states, so issues will be dealt with according to the local governments demographic.

Then why do federal judges block the enforcement of immigration laws on the state or municipal level?

Can you specifically address any of the assertions trancer-x is making?

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Originally posted by Krypton Can you specifically address any of the assertions trancer-x is making?

Can you stop holding trancer-x's hand, and let him say this himself? He's a big boy. He is picking and choosing what the issues in order to make his little "Totalitarian" paranoia look reasonable. It's ridiculous. In reality, states are more powerful than ever, regardless of the patriot act, regardless of the habeas corpus hubbub, regardless of anything our national government TRIES to do. Their are administrations, which change hands every 4 or 8 years, the legislative that changes every two years. It's absolutely hilarious to watch people crap their pants when we have a short period of time when we have a weak congress and a strong executive branch. In a few years, trancer-x will look back on his posts and hopefully laugh.

Oh, and since articles are soon to be banned from being posted without an opinion from the poster, I think quoting people and posting youtube videos without original content should be as well. This would basically get rid of 70% of trancer-x's posts.

Federal laws can override state laws concerning marijuana.

I don't think you understand the significance of state powers. Eros, If you want to point out every little thing the federal government can override and continue to ignore my point, go right ahead.

I have stated, that after FDR's new deal. FDR's new deal. FDR's new deal. FDR's new deal. Am I getting through to you yet? There have been several times when federalism has changed throughout our history, the states' relationships with our federal government has been a bumpy ride. And it's OBVIOUS that our federal government has to have different powers than the states, otherwise we wouldn't be united would we? United states of America! What makes us united? A central government! The constitution, which is the floor (But not the ceiling) for state constitutions! A common currency! HOLY SHIT! OUR GOVERNMENT IS TOTALITARIAN! GOD HELP US!

Oh, the US attorneys can override the state attorney general. HOLY SHIT! IT'S A TOTALITARIAN GOVERNMENT! Chris Christie (US attorney for the district of NJ) is actually helping new jersey get rid of it's corruption, because our own attorney general is corrupted and won't investigate our politicians. Good can come from certain powers given to our federal government. I wouldn't want my state to be ENTIRELY sovereign, otherwise, corruption would never end.

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Originally posted by Marc Summers States are more powerful than ever, since FDR's new deal created cooperative federalism. New federalism has enabled states to take on welfare (thanks to clinton, oddly enough), education, and taxes. Individuals are now closer to their local and state governments more than ever! The federal government really doesn't have the power that it used to have. You can throw all of the quotes, videos and wikipedia articles you want, but conspiracy theories aside, our federal government is giving more power to the states, so issues will be dealt with according to the local governments demographic.

+1

Not just the states, but private corporations as well. Just as businesses are becoming more efficient by outsourcing, so is the Federal government, though a lot of it is going to US corporations. Take Blackwater for example. It's been in the news a lot lately for alleged misconduct in Iraq. But no one has stopped to ask the question of why these organizations exist in the first place. They exist to fulfill government needs that aren't politically expedient or justifiable on the public dime (ironically enough). As wars become less popular, and security issues more contested, the government will increasingly turn to privatized corporations for security -- after all, these firms are basically begging to see action. Erik Prince has gone on record multiple times asking to be let into Darfur to provide security, drawing a parallel to Rwanda, where an estimated 2000 troops with a shoot-to-kill mandate could have ended the genocide in the first two weeks.

Intelligence is being privatized, and so is security. This very President wanted to privatize social services (Social Security and Medicare). What functions are left to the state when it is no longer tasked with providing for security or the general welfare of its citizens? I don't see totalitarianism springing up from there, especially when so much of the domestic spying stuff is also being privatized.

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Originally posted by Marc Summers I wouldn't want my state to be ENTIRELY sovereign, otherwise, corruption would never end.

That's because you're from New Jersey.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov That's because you're from New Jersey.

And I'm from Illinois

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Originally posted by Marc Summers Can you stop holding trancer-x's hand, and let him say this himself? He's a big boy. He is picking and choosing what the issues in order to make his little "Totalitarian" paranoia look reasonable. It's ridiculous. In reality, states are more powerful than ever, regardless of the patriot act, regardless of the habeas corpus hubbub, regardless of anything our national government TRIES to do. Their are administrations, which change hands every 4 or 8 years, the legislative that changes every two years. It's absolutely hilarious to watch people crap their pants when we have a short period of time when we have a weak congress and a strong executive branch. In a few years, trancer-x will look back on his posts and hopefully laugh. Oh, and since articles are soon to be banned from being posted without an opinion from the poster, I think quoting people and posting youtube videos without original content should be as well. This would basically get rid of 70% of trancer-x's posts.

Ok, I didn't ask you to bash the poster. Anyone can do that all day. I asked you to address his claims in a specific manner. Please, I don't want to ride you like Chrles and latinlover for not addressing the arguments specifically. What don't you agree with specifically that trancer-x has said, and can you use a counter-point?

Additionally, articles and videos ARE NOT to be banned. What is being banned is posting them AS A THREAD alone without some sort of thesis, like a comment, a point, etc.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov That's because you're from New Jersey.

One thing about New Jersey that i haven't been proud of. I don't know about other states, but if you know the right person, regardless of whether you have any experience, you can hold an office, or a high-paying position. It's all legalized corruption! Our governor has JUST passed a bill forbidding elected officials to hold 2 offices or positions, but it doesn't apply to anyone put into office before January 2008! I know we are known for corruption, but I wonder if it's just that we don't hide it better than other states.

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Originally posted by Marc Summers One thing about New Jersey that i haven't been proud of. I don't know about other states, but if you know the right person, regardless of whether you have any experience, you can hold an office, or a high-paying position.

For example, if you're porking the governor, you can be his new security chief!

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Originally posted by Capitalizt I really doubt there will be any type of secessionist movement. Americans are too dumb these days to organize something like that. The continued decline of our educational system combined with dozens of new reality tv shows and other "entertainment" on the couch = ignorant, fat, lazy, and apathetic citizens who are not ready to take part in a violent revolution...no matter how bad things get.

This is a major sticking point in my second civil war theory. When people are fat and drugged (caffien, alchol, nicoteen, weed, coke) they are generally happy. This is a lot like the drugs used in Brave New World.

But it becomes less of an issue when one realizes that wars are fought by the active, not passive, elements of society. Those who are fat and lazy get labbled "civilians" and die from colateral damage, starvation, and disease.

The spark that will ignight a fire between the states (and/or provinces) will have to be a drastic reduction in the returns on labour. This means that fat people will be forced to do more to maintain thier lifestyle, which they won't like, or that they will simply have to accept a lower standard of living. People aren't ready to see the standard of living drop.

My dystopian future comes partly due to my observations of Chinese trade policy. The past five years have seen aggressive moves by Chinese State owned companies to secure contracts for resources on unheard of time lines, like 10 to 20 year deals. Additionally they've been actively building a blue water navy to protect thier "national intrests" (read: resource supply lines). This leads me to beleive that the central planners have put thier heads together and decided that resources are going to become scarce.

It also begs to question, who exactly do the Chinese think they need to protect thier ocean going vessels from? There are only a handful of countries with the naval capacity to do it so they must be betting that one of them might have the motivation to do so in the comming decades.

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Originally posted by Marc Summers I don't understand some of your beliefs Trancer-x. States are more powerful than ever, since FDR's new deal created cooperative federalism. New federalism has enabled states to take on welfare (thanks to clinton, oddly enough), education, and taxes. Individuals are now closer to their local and state governments more than ever! The federal government really doesn't have the power that it used to have. You can throw all of the quotes, videos and wikipedia articles you want, but conspiracy theories aside, our federal government is giving more power to the states, so issues will be dealt with according to the local governments demographic.

Do you know what Executive Orders are?

Orwell Rolls In His Grave

You can tell that they've taken cues from Joseph Goebbels



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quote:

"If you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche

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