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-- Rememberance day / Veteran's day
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I'm no fan of most political motivations for war, but I still think there is something noble about sacrificing your own personal safety and well-being for what you believe in. Granted, this current escapade in Iraq is destroying the notion that American troops volunteer to fight for causes that they support. But that hasn't always been the case - it would be tough to argue that the men and women who joined the armed services in World War II didn't do so to fight for an ideal on the behalf of the entire nation.

Vietnam muddied that ideal, and the idea that soldiers only go to war to fight for just causes. Maybe it's because I watched Gettysburg on Sunday (first time I'd seen it), but there is something noble about being willing to sacrifice your life for a cause that you truly believe is just. I know that's a double-edged sword; after all, don't Islamic terrorists believe they are fighting for the righteous side? And who's to say one side is more righteous than the other? That depends entirely on the context provided by which side of the line you stand. But the idea of sacrificing your life for a cause is something that is completely alien to present-day America, because it's difficult to find a true cause worth dying for. And for that reason alone, I respect those veterans who were willing to put their own lives on hold for a cause in any case. I may never understand it, but I can respect it.

quote:

Robert "Bob" Upshur Woodward (born March 26, 1943) is assistant managing editor of The Washington Post. While an investigative reporter for that newspaper, Woodward, working with his co-employee Carl Bernstein helped uncover the Watergate scandal that led to President Richard Nixon's resignation. Woodward has written 12 best-selling non-fiction books and has twice contributed reporting to efforts that collectively earned the Post and its National Reporting staff a Pulitzer Prize.

Source: Wikipedia

"Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy.� - Henry Kissinger [quoted by Bob Woodward, �The Final Days�]

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I'm no fan of most political motivations for war, but I still think there is something noble about sacrificing your own personal safety and well-being for what you believe in.

Then you'd better start respecting every poor sucker who straps on some dynamite in the name of Allah to take down the colonizing oppressor.

Everything's got a spin, some just have government mandates and approval for murder.

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Originally posted by DJ Shibby Then you'd better start respecting every poor sucker who straps on some dynamite in the name of Allah to take down the colonizing oppressor. Everything's got a spin, some just have government mandates and approval for murder.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I know that's a double-edged sword; after all, don't Islamic terrorists believe they are fighting for the righteous side? And who's to say one side is more righteous than the other? That depends entirely on the context provided by which side of the line you stand.

I figured I was walking into that trap, and it's difficult to articulate the distinction in my mind, but I think it is disingenous to compare an act deliberately targeting a civilian population with the role of the military, which, until recently, could never be construed as being primarily targeted against non-combatants.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I figured I was walking into that trap, and it's difficult to articulate the distinction in my mind, but I think it is disingenous to compare an act deliberately targeting a civilian population with the role of the military, which, until recently, could never be construed as being primarily targeted against non-combatants.

Perhaps because it's highly subjective to begin with?

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Perhaps because it's highly subjective to begin with?

I was more thinking because I am tired and not very good with words, but I'll concede that it is subjective to a point. But I really do think it is disingenuous to equate soldiers fighting for their country with a suicide bomber.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I was more thinking because I am tired and not very good with words, but I'll concede that it is subjective to a point. But I really do think it is disingenuous to equate soldiers fighting for their country with a suicide bomber.

Again, that's a subjective statement.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Again, that's a subjective statement.

Opinions inherently are.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r And for your information there shaolin_Z, Canadians were NEVER conscripted (minus one time in 1917), they all volunteered. And this includes WWII. You talk about being lazy and ignorant, trying doing some research next time before talking a country's military's history you no nothing about....

Canadians were conscripted after a vote in 1917, when the casualties list got too high. This was generally accepted by most Canadians, except Quebecois. (And a lot of Quebecois against conscription applied for exemption, and in most cases, got it)

Conscription also happened during WW2. Not sure exactly when it started, but the original idea of conscription in this period was for homeland defence and not for overseas duties (which was volunteer only). These conscriptees were called 'Zombies' because of precisely that reason that they were not sent overseas.
This got changed in 1944 again when more men were needed, but by the time that the Zombies arrived in Europe, the war was nearly over.

Having said that, there must be some sort of collective brainwashing going on because during WW1, some towns had something like 90% of eligible men volunteer to join the military. (And the government didn't have to tell them to join, at least in the first few years of the war)

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Originally posted by Halcyon+On+On What does it take to leave your kids fatherless but for the sole purpose of killing some strangers who wear a different uniform than yourself?

It takes guts, and the determination to strike a blow against a regime that murdered 9 million innocent people. War is sometimes necessary, and Shaolin I could not disagree with you more. Every country tends to reflect the moral values of the people within it. Some cultures have radically different values that breed conflict and violence. If you share the values of your country (freedom, tolerance, democracy, etc), you should stand behind those who are committed to defending those values. I understand your anger because we've had very little DEFENSE recently. Most modern wars have been offensive...very unnecessary and tragic. By all means, oppose the politicians when they send the troops into unjustified conflicts...Do what you can to change attitudes and rally opposition to war, but don't oppose the troops themselves. They will be your last line of defense if we ever face a true danger.

My indictment list:

George W Bush
Dick Cheney
Donald Rumsfeld
Paul Wolfowitz

War is hell.

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Originally posted by Capitalizt It takes guts, and the determination to strike a blow against a regime that murdered 9 million innocent people. War is sometimes necessary, and Shaolin I could not disagree with you more. Every country tends to reflect the moral values of the people within it. Some cultures have radically different values that breed conflict and violence. If you share the values of your country (freedom, tolerance, democracy, etc), you should stand behind those who are committed to defending those values. I understand your anger because we've had very little DEFENSE recently. Most modern wars have been offensive...very unnecessary and tragic. So please, oppose the politicians when they send the troops into unjustified conflicts, by all means...Do what you can to change attitudes and rally opposition to war...but don't oppose the troops themselves. They will be your last line of defense if we ever face a true danger.

I'm not saying all troops are savages, I'm just not fond of the institution of the military because of exactly the reasons you stated. I also think unconditionally supporting any group of people is completely irrational. There's good and bad everywhere, in every group. What I hoped to demonstrate is people who'll generalize all Americans because the the actions of (whatever number) of troops stationed in Iraq is no different than people generalizing about all Arabs or Muslims because of a video of a contractor being decapitated. It always easy to generalize to a group you don't belong to. People make all sorts of excuses for "their own kind." If you belong to multiple groups by default of genetics, heritage, nationality etc. though you exactly identify with any one of them, you're still going to get the short end of the stick. My point is simply this; mindlessnessly praising "service men" is just as retarded as mindlesslessly generalizing that Iraqis (or Arab and Muslims) are inherently violent or barbaric. I'm not saying you're doing that btw, but it's done fairly frequently if not explicitly then implicitly. Neither is a good thing, and I find many of the people who claim to support the troops to be hypocritical as they have no problem believing in a cause costing the lives of their own country men (not to mention disproportionately more civilian lives that they don't consider "one of their's") is kind of well, disgusting. Especially while they never have to face any such situation themselves, and chastise people critical of policy as unpatriotic and doing the opposite of "supporting the troops" apparently. It's a real fucking shame and disgrace when you consider how many troops come home in body bags or crippled, only to be charged by the military for their irreparable losses. Anyone in favor of supporting them would never want them to be sent there in the first place, to either not come back at all, come back with permanently disabling injuries, or to have lost a great deal of their sanity and humanity in the process. If you look at the number of military personnel going untreated, I'd hardly say the nation by and large is "supporting the troops," something that the state should already be doing in the first place, not charging families for the death and crippling of their sons and daughters. That is the other aspect of it.

EDIT: My last line of defense is myself btw, if we're actually invaded that is. I don't currently own any guns but would have no problem getting them if that were the case. Which isn't the case. When was the last war you remember on American soil?

Another thing, it doesn't take guts... it takes economic desperation and / or brainwashing. Patriotism is the last refuse of the scoundrel. That's a lack of guts. It takes guts to oppose the state on the other hand, and to stand up for your fellow man... regardless of where on the globe. It also takes guts to refuse to serve, even if you're stationed there.

This takes guts:

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z This takes guts:

Very noble cause. It's nice to know some Israelis are getting a clue.

And this:

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AFP, May 16, 2008 US soldier refuses to serve in "illegal Iraq war" But while many seek refuge in Canada, the young soldier vowed to stay in the United States to fight "whatever charges the army levels at me." Matthis Chiroux is the kind of young American US military recruiters love. quote: Matthis Chiroux: "This occupation is unconstitutional and illegal and I hereby lawfully refuse to participate as I will surely be a party to war crimes." (watch video) "I was from a poor, white family from the south, and I did badly in school," the now 24-year-old told AFP. "I was 'filet mignon' for recruiters. They started phoning me when I was in 10th grade," or around 16 years old, he added. Chiroux joined the US army straight out of high school nearly six years ago, and worked his way up from private to sergeant. He served in Afghanistan, Germany, Japan, and the Philippines and was due to be deployed next month in Iraq. On Thursday, he refused to go, saying he considers Iraq an illegal war. "I stand before you today with the strength and clarity and resolve to declare to the military, my government and the world that this soldier will not be deploying to Iraq," Chiroux said in the sun-filled rotunda of a congressional building in Washington. "My decision is based on my desire to no longer continue violating my core values to support an illegal and unconstitutional occupation... I refuse to participate in the Iraq occupation," he said, as a dozen veterans of the five-year-old Iraq war looked on. Minutes earlier, Chiroux had cried openly as he listened to former comrades-in-arms testify before members of Congress about the failings of the Iraq war. The testimonies were the first before Congress by Iraq veterans who have turned against the five-year-old war. quote: Some 300,000 of the 1.6 million US soldiers who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan suffer from the psychological traumas of post-traumatic stress disorder, depression or both, an independent study showed last month. AFP, May 16, 2008 Former army sergeant Kristofer Goldsmith told a half-dozen US lawmakers and scores of people who packed into a small hearing room of "lawless murders, looting and the abuse of countless Iraqis." He spoke of the psychologically fragile men and women who return from Iraq, to find little help or treatment offered from official circles. Goldsmith said he had "self-medicated" for several months to treat the wounds of the war. Another soldier told AFP he had to boost his dosage of medication to treat anxiety and social agoraphobia -- two of many lingering mental wounds he carries since his deployments in Iraq -- before testifying. Some 300,000 of the 1.6 million US soldiers who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan suffer from the psychological traumas of post-traumatic stress disorder, depression or both, an independent study showed last month. A group of veterans sitting in the hearing room gazed blankly as their comrades' testimonies shattered the official version that the US effort in Iraq is succeeding. Almost to a man, the soldiers who testified denounced serious flaws in the chain of command in Iraq. Luis Montalvan, a former army captain, accused high-ranking US officers of numerous failures in Iraq, including turning a blind eye to massive fraud on the part of US contractors. quote: Kelly Dougherty, Executive Director of Iraq Veterans Against The War ( http://www.ivaw.org ). "We believe that the only way this war is going to end is if the American people truly understand what we have done in their name." Like the Vietnam Winter Soldier hearings, the Iraq and Afghanistan veterans' gripping and often tearful testimony highlighted how the atrocities committed by American troops are not simply down to �a few bad apples' but are systematic and continuous and, importantly, a direct consequence of the increasingly bloody occupations. Znet, May 9, 2008 Ex-Marine Jason Lemieux told how a senior officer had altered a report he had written because it slammed US troops of using excessive force, firing off thousands of rounds of machine gun fire and hundreds of grenades in the face of a feeble four rounds of enemy fire. Goldsmith accused US officials of censorship. "Everyone who manages a blog, Facebook or Myspace out of Iraq has to register every video, picture, document of any event they do on mission," Goldsmith told AFP after the hearing. "You're almost always denied before you are allowed to send them home." Officials take "hard facts and slice them into small pieces to make them presentable to the secretary of state or the president -- and all with the intent of furthering the occupation of Iraq," Goldsmith added. Chiroux is one of thousands of US soldiers who have deserted since the Iraq war began in 2003, according to figures issued last year by the US army. But while many seek refuge in Canada, the young soldier vowed to stay in the United States to fight "whatever charges the army levels at me." The US army defines a deserter as someone who has been absent without leave for 30 days. Chiroux stood fast in his resolve to not report for duty on June 15. "I cannot deploy to Iraq, carry a weapon and not be part of the problem," he told AFP.

Source: RAWA

EDIT: It's individuals like this that set a high standard for the rest of us.

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Originally posted by Krypton Very noble cause. It's nice to know some Israelis are getting a clue.

There's plenty of Israeli who do .

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z It takes guts to stand up for your fellow man,

And that is exactly what JUST wars are about.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z I'm not saying all troops are savages, I'm just not fond of the institution of the military because of exactly the reasons you stated. I also think unconditionally supporting any group of people is completely irrational.

Then why the hell are they in the military in the first place??
The military has a chain of command FFS....

Only idiots would choose to serve and then all of a sudden grow a liberal conscience while still serving.
It's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of not to mention very selfish.

If they don't like it, grow some balls and LEAVE.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Only idiots would choose to serve

I completly agree

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r If they don't like it, grow some balls and LEAVE.

Right as if they can just walk away without going jail.The ones that came to Canada and refused to go to war with Iraq will get fucked if they go back to the US.

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Originally posted by Fir3start3r Then why the hell are they in the military in the first place?? The military has a chain of command FFS.... Only idiots would choose to serve and then all of a sudden grow a liberal conscience while still serving. It's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of not to mention very selfish. If they don't like it, grow some balls and LEAVE.

Experience tends to change people. They saw what the occupation was doing to the people of Palestine.

qa

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Originally posted by Krypton Experience tends to change people. They saw what the occupation was doing to the people of Palestine.

I'm fine with that however there is such a thing as, 'discharge' in the service that works just as well without having to make a selfish spectacle.

There are many reasons they could use to get discharged and really no excuses:

* Expiration of Term of Service (ETS)
* Disability, Dependency, or Hardship
* Pregnancy/Parenthood
* Physical or Mental Conditions that interfere with military service
* Convenience of The Government/Secretarial Authority (voluntary redundancy due to funding cutbacks, for example)
* Unsuitability
* Misconduct - Minor Disciplinary Infractions
* Entry-Level Performance and Conduct
* Resignation

(List taken from Wiki)

Why wouldn't one of the listed reasons above work unless something has an agenda?

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