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-- religion is so great, doo-dah doo-dah
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Originally posted by echosystm yeah, like jihads and locking up galileo for saying the earth is not the center of the universe... fuck those athiest bastards. lol... i'm sorry man, religion is a cess pool of stupidity, ignorance and bullshit. if people didn't rebel against religion, we would still be thinking the earth is flat. ps. hitler was neither athiest nor christian. don't go there.

so, if hitler wasn't atheist or christian, then what was he?

so, pol pot, rwanda, stalin happened because...? religion wasn't the issue there

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Originally posted by EvilTree religion is a bigger divider than race?

absolutely.

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Originally posted by EvilTree so, pol pot, rwanda, stalin happened because...? religion wasn't the issue there

non sequitur. none of those situations were due to atheism, or were "fought" to bring atheism to the heathens.

hitler and stalin both had stupid moustaches, should we be on the look out for future leaders with facial hair?

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Originally posted by weymouth The worst monstrosities ever committed in our history were committed by atheists but believers have their share as well.

lol jesus fucking christ...

The problem is with "believers" in general, not with atheists or theists in particular. People who think that their hold on truth lets them do anything they want to people who think differently.

An atheist can be a "believer" as much any Christian, e.g. a "believer" in the dictatorship of the proletariat ("Communism") as implemented under Stalin -- and many atheists (even outside the Soviet Union) were in fact "believers" in Stalin and defended him, especially in the early days.

Atheism in the Soviet Union was official policy for two reasons:

(1) Totalitarians hate the idea of "civil society," meaning institutions other than government that have a strong hold on people's emotions. The church is one such institution, and it can present an obstacle to allegiance to political leaders. So totalitarians have to either co-opt it or destroy it.

(2) Marx taught that religion was the "sigh of the oppressed" and the "opium of the people," basically a symptom of a sick society. This implies that religion will fade away once a healthy society (aka communism) comes about, since people won't be oppressed anymore and won't need the "opium" of religion to dull their pain. If people are still going to church under a nominally "communist" regime, then that implies (according to Marx's logic) that the regime isn't as perfect as it purports to be. So what do you do? Treat the "symptom" of societal sickness: kill the church.

opiate|

Hmm?

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Originally posted by EvilTree so, if hitler wasn't atheist or christian, then what was he?

he was whatever he had to be to keep the facade going. one day he would say he was working in the honour of christ, by killing jews. the next day he would say all religion is the bane of human existence... and fixed this by killing jews.

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Originally posted by echosystm he was whatever he had to be to keep the facade going. one day he would say he was working in the honour of christ, by killing jews. the next day he would say all religion is the bane of human existence... and fixed this by killing jews.

the point is that hitler used christianity to justify a lot of horrible things to a lot of naive people. no such crimes have ever been committed in the name of scientific method. and let's not pretend like the vatican had nothing to do with the holocaust.

" The national government will maintain and defend the foundations on which the power of our nation rests. It will offer strong protection to Christianity as the very basis of our collective morality. Today Christians stand at the head of our country. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit. We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theatre, and in the press--in short, we want to burn out the poison of immorality which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of liberal excess during the past few years. "


" Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction, consequently all character training and religion must be derived from faith. We need believing people. "


" Belief is harder to shake than knowledge. "


" The broad masses of a population are more amenable to the appeal of rhetoric than to any other force. "


" The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one. "

- Adolph Hitler, The Speeches of Adolph Hitler 1922-1939, Vol. 1


" The main doctrine of a fanatic's creed is that his enemies are enemies of God. "

- Andrew White

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Originally posted by R!CH well if you any desire to see the end of war, racism, violence and ignorance on this planet, you have a very compelling reason to see the end of religion. that is the point of "atheist books"...

Yes because I'm sure that if we got rid of religion then we would loose our instinctive human traits to:
*explore
*attain wealth
*expand borders
*cause harm to others (for some, not all)
*racism (for some, not all)

Yes, get rid of all religion and never again will anyone ever compete against one another for space exploration or scientific study. Nobody would want to be first anymore.

Yes, nobody would ever want to get more money. Greed would disappear and we would live happily ever after in our little communist world.

Yes, no country will ever want to claim a piece of land as their own. The borders of the world will forever be locked.

Yes, no psychopath or truly evil person will ever cause harm to another human being. Crime will disappear. Murders and homicides will cease.

Yes, no human will ever look at another human of different colour with contempt because we will all magically now see each other as equal.

Yes, religion is the true and sole cause of all of this

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN for anyone wondering, THIS is why atheists like myself might sound just as zealot-like as the actual zealots. how this stuff doesn't make everybody's blood boil is beyond me

Wait, so you're assuming that this makes religious people happy? All of them?

Not everybody is evil because of religion you know, and plenty of religious people benefit this world directly due to their faith like those who are totally selfless and go and help people in need. Ok, so they can get annoying but they do it in the name of Christ or Buddha or Mohammed or whatever.

Religion is far from perfect but I don't think branding it as a parasite for the world is correct. There's two sides to every story and the extremes on both sides are fundamentally just as bad.

I've said it before, I'll say it again:
Extremist atheism is just as bad a religious zealotry. Both sides are unwilling to see the other sides viewpoint and are too stubborn to leave a possibility for something which they cannot explain.

Why did you post this here and not in PDD?
Oh yea that's right so that you can start a flame war which inevitably benefits you and so you can post nonsense like this:

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN you people clearly dont understand the difference between religious wackos and atheists. im not going to bother with you peasants i hope you all go to hell.

Yes well done. Great argument. Have a lolly for your efforts.

ps. Read the sig bitch

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Originally posted by Fledz Yes well done. Great argument. Have a lolly for your efforts. ps. Read the sig bitch

What I want to know is what on earth is PKC doing rooting for the poms in a game of football!

Apparently he chose to go for them at a young age...

edit trash

Imagine all the people....

LIVING FOR TODAY.... WOOOHOO.

PLEASE DONT FIGHT ABOUT RELIGION. Why cant we just get together?

Assalamu'alaykum!

quote:

Originally posted by Fledz Yes because I'm sure that if we got rid of religion then we would loose our instinctive human traits to: *explore *attain wealth *expand borders *cause harm to others (for some, not all) *racism (for some, not all) Yes, get rid of all religion and never again will anyone ever compete against one another for space exploration or scientific study. Nobody would want to be first anymore. Yes, nobody would ever want to get more money. Greed would disappear and we would live happily ever after in our little communist world. Yes, no country will ever want to claim a piece of land as their own. The borders of the world will forever be locked. Yes, no psychopath or truly evil person will ever cause harm to another human being. Crime will disappear. Murders and homicides will cease. Yes, no human will ever look at another human of different colour with contempt because we will all magically now see each other as equal. Yes, religion is the true and sole cause of all of this

i can't believe you wasted all the time to type that ^^ absolute bollocks.

anyways, nobody here has said anything remotely similar to that. sheesh. but if you can't see the very unique nature of the role religion plays in some of ^^ that, then...i...dunno...think you're dumb?

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Wait, so you're assuming that this makes religious people happy? All of them?

irrelevant, its not part of the discussion and i have never said anything resembling that.

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Not everybody is evil because of religion you know

again, i haven't said that either.

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and plenty of religious people benefit this world directly due to their faith like those who are totally selfless and go and help people in need.

people don't need organised religion to do that.

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Religion is far from perfect but I don't think branding it as a parasite for the world is correct.

are you actually reading anything i say or just making this up as you go along?

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There's two sides to every story and the extremes on both sides are fundamentally just as bad.

please, elaborate. picture this: you have our world, devoid of any religious belief or practice and complete with all the same problems as our current world, just minus those problems caused by religion. what new problems do you see atheism bringing to this world, to make it "fundamentally just as bad"??

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I've said it before, I'll say it again: Extremist atheism is just as bad a religious zealotry. Both sides are unwilling to see the other sides viewpoint and are too stubborn to leave a possibility for something which they cannot explain.

totally, utterly, completely incorrect. in discourse they read exactly the same, i agree. i know my mind won't be changed anymore than someone else who thinks differently (but its not about that anyway*). extremist atheism however, does not cause the very real world ramifications as religious zealotry. how can you even try arguing against that? your "extremist atheism" is fundamentally different in practice. practice is always more important than discourse.

*as long as religion is forcing its way into the public sphere i will rail against it. im not here to change anybody's mind.

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Why did you post this here and not in PDD?

we've always got a religious-related thread in the PDD. COR kids can have fun here too.

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Oh yea that's right so that you can Oh yea that's right so that you can start a flame war which inevitably benefits you and so you can post nonsense like this: Yes well done. Great argument. Have a lolly for your efforts.

don't be a dick fledz. you know some people just bring that out of me. i am more than happy to engage someone in a proper chat if they say something worthwhile that's not totally stupid. and you've tried really really hard here and just missed out, but i like you

and yes, ive seen the sig. i dont normally talk up our chances before games (for obvious reasons). but some of you croate fvckers were running your mouths and it pissed me off, so i stupidly took the bait haha. can't complain about the genie coming out if you were rubbing the lamp!

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Originally posted by RickyM What I want to know is what on earth is PKC doing rooting for the poms in a game of football!

picture this. you have a young kid, loves his football. but he lives in australia. if he had been an socceroo fan, how many world cups & euros would he have been able to sit up and watch to see his team play?

1. in 2006. fuck that!

im not nationalistic at all and to me its about teams, not countries. my team will always be england.

and i love(d) owen, mcmanamen, gerrard, litisier, shearer etc. though obviously not enough to remember how to spell all their names right

quote:

So anyone who's up for it: if religion has been beneficial to society (because I assume that's what everybody wants. if not, that's a different argument), point out how.

Let me point out first that I am very much against organized religion.

I am however somewhat of a mystic



I think the major benefit of religion in society has been to give hope and a sense of purpose, meaning, and belonging for everyday people who have too many things to worry about while they make ends meet day in and day out.

These people don't have time or many times education to understand the science or cultural theory against religion.

It gives ordinary people a sense of values and morals. Imagine if the uneducated faith-seeking masses had no religion and instead only looked to politicians to fulfill their promises - it would be even worse than it is now. I think in many cases for ordinary people religion is a very important thing. We all as humans have a need for faith, a place from which we derive our values, a set of universal truths by which we align our worldviews.

I am with an above poster when he said something about atheism often being hypocritical about preaching nonbelief. It is essentially a faith because there is not actual tangible proof that a god does not exist, and the whole idea of atheism is based around a supposed truth that one hopes to prove through the eventual revelation of scientific fact. I think fact itself is a thing which changes with time and cultural sophistication. Remember, astrology was considered cutting edge science way back when... Ritual is equal to scientific method.

Humans are by nature ritual beings with an innate need for society, purpose, and to connect to a world which is much larger with them. Every aspect of our built environment incorporates these basic needs. Historically this has taken the form of things like Shinto, Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc, etc. I would argue that religion always has its roots in observation and contemplation of nature. Ritual is a process by which we can connect with what we do not understand, it is also a means by which we acquire purpose and reason for existence. This can mean going to church every sunday, it could mean praying five times a day - I think the scientific method of experimentation itself is a form of ritual. The whole reason we are even posting on this message board is because we have all adhered to a form of ritual through music and dance.

enough before i begin to ramble too much\


cor version:

not everyone has the ability or possibility to understand a world beyond what religion offers, and so for these people, religion can provide hope during bad times and purpose to their lives, as well as give them ways in which to deal with one another.

in itself it's not a bad thing, but like anything can be exploited and used for gain at the expense of others.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN picture this. you have a young kid, loves his football. but he lives in australia. if he had been an socceroo fan, how many world cups & euros would he have been able to sit up and watch to see his team play? 1. in 2006. fuck that! im not nationalistic at all and to me its about teams, not countries. my team will always be england. and i love(d) owen, mcmanamen, gerrard, litisier, shearer etc. though obviously not enough to remember how to spell all their names right

1 or 2 years ago I would have gone into a rant about supporting your country (especially with the Northern Ireland/Republic situation), but I'd like to invite you to support Northern Ireland, since we're more or less the best team in the British Isles! Plus the greatest footballer of all time is from Northern Ireland, George Best.
For this privilege, all I ask is a membership fee of 1000 Sterlings per year.

Oh, and it's Matt Le Tissier

Ive read the book. Its wonderful. To hell with Turkey.

No pun intended.

Re: Re: Re: religion is so great, doo-dah doo-dah

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN shhh, i try to keep that part of myself well-hidden

Well, it was evident in your political opinions, so it certainly explains a lot. Had I known you were an atheist I would have stopped defending the religious legal system to you a long time ago, because you will never understand its merits (as your belief system is diametrically opposed).

I guess we'll just agree to disagree!

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Originally posted by echosystm yeah, like jihads and locking up galileo for saying the earth is not the center of the universe... fuck those athiest bastards.

LMAO!!!! You have the most hilarious and retarded responses evar!!! When you're not being a fanboy, you are speaking nonsense!!! LOL!!! Stalin + Hitler's atrocities are far greater than all the jihads combined. And locking up galileo was a monstrosity?!!

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Originally posted by echosystm ps. hitler was neither athiest nor christian. don't go there.

Don't go there?! Are you kidding?!! Why don't you study a little history then come back to this thread.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN non sequitur. none of those situations were due to atheism, or were "fought" to bring atheism to the heathens.

That's not the point. It wasn't about "fighting" to bring atheism, but it was about their political ideologies and ethical standards. You believe there are universal principles which are protected in mainstream liberal democratic systems DUE TO RELIGION. Where the moral fabric of religion-based law (yes, I'm referring to the west here, not Sharia Law) is detroyed, you get self-serving despots like Stalin and Hitler.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN hitler and stalin both had stupid moustaches, should we be on the look out for future leaders with facial hair?

Every now and then you say silly things too (as you are entitled to! )

There was once a time when none of the religions of today existed. Guess what, humanity survived.

Religion in itself is not good/bad. People are the problem.

"Gentleness, self-sacrifice and generosity are the exclusive possession of no one race or religion." -- Gandhi

Fuck do I hate threads like these.

To answer whoever the hell it was that asked why I thought Dawkins was a twat it's simply because he's every bit as closed minded as the people he rails against.

And with that, I'm done. You kids enjoy your little argument.

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