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They just don't sell.

That interview Cliffy B did recently where he said Epic was shifting its focus strictly to consoles was really kind of indicative of the paradigm shift away from PC gaming these past few years.

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Originally posted by Philby a big LOL to any hardcore xbox fanboys who thought it was gonna stay only on 360. pc version was inevitable!

Anyone who thought that is an absolute moron in every sense of the word.

Bioware, the king of RPGs with absolutely massive releases on PC for most of their games, and they thought that they would abandon the PC so it could be Xbox exclusive?

Bahahahaha, give me a break It makes it much easier to code between Xbox and Win these days due to the standardised Microsoft dev code anyway. It's a bit of a shame they got it first but hell, we'll get a better and more polished game so we win in the end. I've had plenty of fun with all the GTAs even though it was months after PS so I'm used to it.

Can't wait for this, but don't understand wtf RJT is on. Must be the type of person to just run through the main quest and not immerse himself in the world.

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Originally posted by RJT Yeah, hardcore lols man - that's just the funniest thing evAR! Fuck, the little things that entertain some folks...

well there is a bunch of them whining on the gamespot comments that bioware is lame and shit now because it isn't xbox only. i think thats funny anyway.

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Originally posted by RJT I agree, but with PC gaming on the steady decline and console gaming being where the cash is, it doesn't surprise me to see companies neglecting PC ports of properties that would make the transfer well.

"steady decline"? ha, ive been hearing that for more than a decade, and the PC still has almost ALL the innovative titles being released.

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Originally posted by Fledz Can't wait for this, but don't understand wtf RJT is on. Must be the type of person to just run through the main quest and not immerse himself in the world.

Have you even read any of my posts in this thread? The "extra" content outside of the main quest amounts to little more than encyclopedia reading and the same mako side mission on every extra planet.

I immerse myself in textbooks often enough during the week - I don't particularly care to do it again while I'm playing a game.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN "steady decline"? ha, ive been hearing that for more than a decade, and the PC still has almost ALL the innovative titles being released.

Innovation doesn't mean a thing when they aren't selling.



People just don't buy PC games, and there are countless interviews, reports, news stories, etc. on that very fact.

I'd also like to know what games for PC you think are so innovative? I don't see much beyond the standard fare that's been available for years dressed up in pretty new graphics.

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Originally posted by RJT I'd also like to know what games for PC you think are so innovative?

uh oh... here it comes

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Originally posted by Project-K uh oh... here it comes

I can think of Spore, that's about it.

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Originally posted by RJT Innovation doesn't mean a thing when they aren't selling. People just don't buy PC games, and there are countless interviews, reports, news stories, etc. on that very fact.

oh I didn�t say they were selling especially well, of course the dumbed-down formats where you only need to have the skills to use a DVD drive to play it are going to outsell PC titles. Same way pop music outsells trance.

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Originally posted by RJT I'd also like to know what games for PC you think are so innovative? I don't see much beyond the standard fare that's been available for years dressed up in pretty new graphics.

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Originally posted by Project-K uh oh... here it comes

hahahaha. i dont know you project-k, but i like your attitude and attention to detail!!

im not saying all PC titles are innovative, but just that most innovation in gaming occurs at the PC level, or at the very least we see a port in due course for "exclusive" titles. BUT, off the top of my head, in the last little while...

orange box
spore
supcom/forged alliance
sins of a solar empire
CoH
bioshock
alone in the dark 5

outside the wii im not seeing anything from the other contenders. because of its power and versality the PC will always be the home of the bold designers.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN tion to detail!! im not saying all PC titles are innovative, but just that most innovation in gaming occurs at the PC level, or at the very least we see a port in due course for "exclusive" titles. BUT, off the top of my head, in the last little while... orange box spore supcom/forged alliance sins of a solar empire CoH bioshock alone in the dark 5 outside the wii im not seeing anything from the other contenders. because of its power and versality the PC will always be the home of the bold designers.

All the games in bold have had/will see simultaneous release on consoles where they will inevitably outsell the PC version.

CoH is an MMO, so meh - keep it. They only work well on PC's anyway (and coincidentally are the only PC games that sell), and is only innovative if you consider re-skinning the traditional MMO format with super heroes is innovative.

And Sins of a Solar Empire is just a real time version of Civilization that takes place in space and has pretty graphics that look like a spruced up "Homeworld." I'd hardly call it "innovative."

And because of their complete lack of sales, unless the industry completely changes itself, PC's will never again be the home of bold designers.



I'd just prepare for the Exodus now.

Edit: And I don't know shit about Supreme Commander, but it looks like fun and that it probably is reasonably described as "Innovative."

So there you go - I'll give you two.

By "CoH", are you referring to City of Heroes or Company of Heroes?

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Originally posted by RJT All the games in bold have had/will see simultaneous release on consoles where they will inevitably outsell the PC version.

irrelevant. they're still better on the PC you notice that arent any super-duper titles championed by the consoles that the PC dont get? alone in the dark is a freakin PC franchise, its still a PC game even if the thumb-kiddies are getting it too. and are you really gonna tell me halflife ISNT A PC game? come now, lets take this seriously

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Originally posted by RJT CoH is an MMO, so meh - keep it. They only work well on PC's anyway (and coincidentally are the only PC games that sell), and is only innovative if you consider re-skinning the traditional MMO format with super heroes is innovative.

company of heroes

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Originally posted by RJT And Sins of a Solar Empire is just a real time version of Civilization that takes place in space and has pretty graphics that look like a spruced up "Homeworld." I'd hardly call it "innovative."

perhaps thats because you havent played it? its the very first game of its type that actually works.

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Originally posted by RJT And because of their complete lack of sales, unless the industry completely changes itself, PC's will never again be the home of bold designers.

absolute nonsense. people have been saying that forever. you cant design bold, new games when all your target audience wants is GTA 17 or fifa 55 etc.

if the PC ISNT the format for innovation, which is? the wii. but that's hardly powerful enough to cater to the next-gen audience. so what innovative titles are microsoft and sony bringing to the party?

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Originally posted by RJT I'd just prepare for the Exodus now. Edit: And I don't know shit about Supreme Commander, but it looks like fun and that it probably is reasonably described as "Innovative." So there you go - I'll give you two.

it really is the greatest RTS title ever

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN irrelevant. they're still better on the PC you notice that arent any super-duper titles championed by the consoles that the PC dont get? alone in the dark is a freakin PC franchise, its still a PC game even if the thumb-kiddies are getting it too. and are you really gonna tell me halflife ISNT A PC game? come now, lets take this seriously

The degree to which they're "better" is both arguable and negligible in any true gameplay sense.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN company of heroes

My mistake, I don't know anything about it.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN perhaps thats because you havent played it? its the very first game of its type that actually works.

Lol, I didn't realize "working" was the sign of a sound game.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN absolute nonsense. people have been saying that forever. you cant design bold, new games when all your target audience wants is GTA 17 or fifa 55 etc. if the PC ISNT the format for innovation, which is? the wii. but that's hardly powerful enough to cater to the next-gen audience. so what innovative titles are microsoft and sony bringing to the party?

People may have been saying that forever, but PC game sales have absolutely tanked in the past two to three years (in far worse fashion than they had been before it), and that is why you're seeing guys who were traditionally PC only (Cliffy B, Molyneaux, etc.) transitioning further and further to consoles.

The beauty of the shift to consoles is that you don't have to look at one "leader" - different developers come of age every year and create games that are sometimes new and different, sometimes rehashes of the same formula done countless times before, and most often somewhere directly between. Innovation is hardly the only factor for qualifying a good game experience - and further, what makes something innovative? I imagine that much the same way I dashed off your suggestions, you could easily find any aspect of any title I mention and attempt to distill it to that single aspect. The fact remains that games like Okami and Katamari are few and far between, regardless of the medium.

My only point, regardless of whether or not anyone wants to acknowledge it, is that if PC game sales continue sinking like the rock they are, well then I wouldn't expect much beyond MMO's, RTS franchises that sell, and more generic first person shooters than you can shake a stick at - and that's if you're lucky enough to have them programming for you nerds at all anymore.

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Originally posted by RJT The degree to which they're "better" is both arguable and negligible in any true gameplay sense.

perhaps. but there's just more choice in terms of how you play the game and how well it runs.

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Originally posted by RJT Lol, I didn't realize "working" was the sign of a sound game.

working in a gameplay mechanics sense

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Originally posted by RJT Innovation is hardly the only factor for qualifying a good game experience -

perhaps not, but its certainly all im after. im tired of the rehashes, which occurs worse on consoles.

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Originally posted by RJT I imagine that much the same way I dashed off your suggestions, you could easily find any aspect of any title I mention and attempt to distill it to that single aspect. The fact remains that games like Okami and Katamari are few and far between, regardless of the medium. My only point, regardless of whether or not anyone wants to acknowledge it, is that if PC game sales continue sinking like the rock they are, well then I wouldn't expect much beyond MMO's, RTS franchises that sell, and more generic first person shooters than you can shake a stick at - and that's if you're lucky enough to have them programming for you nerds at all anymore.

Well, that will spell the end of gaming for me. Don�t get me wrong, consoles do what they do very well and theyre a fantastic product. But the lack of customisation, scaling, control choices, and the generic-ness of your average title will keep me away. The great strength of the console is also its greatest weakness imo.

BUT, the fact that the PC will always have the power edge will ensure any new intellectual property that requires sheer grunt will debut on the PC, just like it always has.

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Originally posted by RJT People may have been saying that forever, but PC game sales have absolutely tanked in the past two to three years (in far worse fashion than they had been before it), and that is why you're seeing guys who were traditionally PC only (Cliffy B, Molyneaux, etc.) transitioning further and further to consoles.

Rubbish. They are doing it because any smart person knows that the best way to make money with games is to sell it on as many platforms as possible. This results in shitty games for everyone but meh, the mindless sheep don't give a fuck and are happy to pay ever increasing amounts for any game. GTA4 is on pre-order here for $150. 150 FUCKING DOLLARS! IDIOTS!

Let's get one things straight, the amount of shit games is every increasing regardless of platform. It's got nothing to do with console vs pc, but all about idiotic sheep demanding uber graphics with absolutely no substance, longevity and replayability in a game.

Oh and btw, saying PC games are dying is like saying trance is dead. It's both a moronic, idiotic and retarded statement at the same time.

Let's just take a look at where you went wrong throughout your entire post, shall we?

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Originally posted by Fledz Rubbish. They are doing it because any smart person knows that the best way to make money with games is to sell it on as many platforms as possible. This results in shitty games for everyone but meh, the mindless sheep don't give a fuck and are happy to pay ever increasing amounts for any game. GTA4 is on pre-order here for $150. 150 FUCKING DOLLARS! IDIOTS!

Where are you that GTA4 is on preorder for $150?

In any event, that entire paragraph seems completely irrelevant to ths discussion at hand, but thanks for noting it Captain O.

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Originally posted by Fledz Let's get one things straight, the amount of shit games is every increasing regardless of platform. It's got nothing to do with console vs pc, but all about idiotic sheep demanding uber graphics with absolutely no substance, longevity and replayability in a game.

Again, seems to have nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Way to stay in the game.

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Originally posted by Fledz Oh and btw, saying PC games are dying is like saying trance is dead. It's both a moronic, idiotic and retarded statement at the same time.

Really? Care to find me some evidence supporting your claim that video games for PC's are still selling incredibly well? Or that the industry isn't shifting towards both the casual and console gamer?



Don't worry about trying (I figure you might just be thick enough to spend a few days trying) - it was a trick question, you can't.

And let me clear up one other little inconsistency in your analogy - you see, Trance music actually sells, and it sells because it's garbage marketed to sheep like you who lap it up like milk from their mothers teat. If you really wanted to make an apt analogy you would have had to have found something whose sales were declining but still managed to stick around, despite the odds stacking against it.

So then, anything else you need cleared up, Fledz? I'm always happy to attempt to educate the idiots, though they rarely seem to learn.



Edit: And just for good measure...

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"I think people would rather make a game that sells 4.5 million copies than a million and Gears is at 4.5 million right now on the 360. I think the PC is just in disarray... what's driving the PC right now is 'Sims'-type games and WoW and a lot of stuff that's in a web-based interface. You just click on it and play it. That's the direction PC is evolving into, so for me the PC is kind of the secondary part of what we're doing. It's important for us, but right now making AAA games on consoles is where we're at."

I'll give you all one guess which formerly PC only developer had that to say.

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Originally posted by RJT Trance music actually sells, and it sells because it's garbage marketed to sheep like you who lap it up like milk from their mothers teat.

oh fuck off! trance sells because it is more accessible, same as console games are more accessible. doesn't make them better, indeed i find a lot of them dumbed down.

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I'll give you all one guess which formerly PC only developer had that to say.

and yet we still have the best games, because (in your own words) console games "sell because it's garbage marketed to sheep like you who lap it up like milk from their mothers teat."

pure and simple.

2007 was the best year for PC games in a long time. im certainly not worried.

Believe me, I'm not here to argue that the consoles aren't absolutely crammed to the gills with shit - trust me, if we're going to have the "what is trance, consoles or PC's?" debate, I guarantee you we're of the same mind.

Though I certainly wouldn't say that necessarily implies PC have the best games - not by a long shot.

But yeah - other than that, if you're happy, then that's all that matters.

does this mean youre not gonna download my 2008 uplifting trance promo?

well, i think PCs have the best games, which is the whole reason i switched to PC gaming back in 1993. i love the fighting games and sports games on consoles, but i pretty much prefer every other genre on PC.

though im fucking unhappy about the fucking issues im having getting my controller to work with fifa 08. fuck EA are shit.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN 2007 was the best year for PC games in a long time.

Since 1999 I would say, and I expect 2008-2009 might even be better than 2007.

Ahahaha, you attempt a rebuttal by just dismissing a paragraph on whim? Please mate, you seem to think your way of arguing is better but you're not actually arguing at all. All you're doing is brushing comments away in an attempt to mask your inability to actually form a proper rebuttal.

And then you go and insinuate I'm an uneducated idiot. Wow, just wow. Idiots definitely never learn

Oh and fyi, comments such as this completely discredit your posts:

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And let me clear up one other little inconsistency in your analogy - you see, Trance music actually sells, and it sells because it's garbage marketed to sheep like you who lap it up like milk from their mothers teat. If you really wanted to make an apt analogy you would have had to have found something whose sales were declining but still managed to stick around, despite the odds stacking against it.

You clearly demonstrate what boat you're in and unlike you I actually appreciate all music and don't just say it's shit because I don't like it. You seem to be of the elitist and jaded bunch which pretty much means you're exactly the same when it comes to games too.

Let me just take a minute and dissect your post and these accusations you seem to be making here:

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Originally posted by Fledz Ahahaha, you attempt a rebuttal by just dismissing a paragraph on whim? Please mate, you seem to think your way of arguing is better but you're not actually arguing at all. All you're doing is brushing comments away in an attempt to mask your inability to actually form a proper rebuttal.

I dismissed your paragraph because it had absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand, that's hardly dismissing it away on a whim. But if you'd like me to go on, it really had everything to do with the fact that non-MMO PC game sales are on the decline (which you're more than welcome to Google), and the fact that I could (and did) provide a textual quote from Cliffy B stating his disinterest in the PC gaming industries current state.

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Originally posted by Fledz And then you go and insinuate I'm an uneducated idiot. Wow, just wow. Idiots definitely never learn

You are an idiot. I know this because I read your posts.

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Originally posted by Fledz Oh and fyi, comments such as this completely discredit your posts: You clearly demonstrate what boat you're in and unlike you I actually appreciate all music and don't just say it's shit because I don't like it. You seem to be of the elitist and jaded bunch which pretty much means you're exactly the same when it comes to games too.

How do they discredit my posts? Because I have taste? It's not my fault trance music has effectively gone down the commercial drain with Armin and co., that's just life.

Further, my tastes are my own - and just because you don't agree with them, and are incapable of making any coherent argument supporting the generic trash you enjoy doesn't make me an elitist who really has no clue what he's talking about.

I hope that's cleared things up for you Fledz, but if it hasn't, let me summarize.

Fledz Summary: You are an idiot, fuck off.

Ahaha, you truly are terrible in every sense of the word. Jesus Christ, what kind of people they let out into the world

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Originally posted by Fledz which pretty much means you're exactly the same when it comes to games too.

So he has good taste in games then?

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Originally posted by Fledz Ahaha, you truly are terrible in every sense of the word. Jesus Christ, what kind of people they let out into the world

I'm just going to take that as an admission of your lack of intelligence/inability to respond intelligently to my posts. You asked me to clarify my position, so I did, so you see, it's you who's the one trying to dash off legitimate posts with a quick line, not me.

I don't know that I've ever seen someone try so hard to come off as intelligent as you have and fail so miserably. Well in.

this is why PC gaming is in the doldrums

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IGN: There are a lot of RTS games being brought over to the console this year. Do you ever see the RTS being as big on the console as it is now on the PC? Chris Taylor: Well one of the key things that is really affecting the economics and the success of gaming in general is piracy on the PC. So one of the reasons we'll see RTSs on the console is because people can't pirate it. That's why we're going to see a lot more of everything on the console. When you look at the sales of really hardcore games like Crysis and you think, "Wow, those games should have sold a lot more," you realize that's probably due in large part to piracy. And you realize that a game like Crysis would have done its true numbers if it had launched on console first. It's just a good business decision to have your game of any kind on a console where you can't pirate it. When you start to refine the control system and you start to take away the barrier of the control system and you start to make that a non-issue, just like we did with first-person shooters, and it becomes more about the game experience and less about the interface, you start to go to the platform where the economics of where the gaming base is. IGN: Recently there have been many attempts to bring the RTS genre over to the console. Do you think what people learn from that will affect how the PC RTS is made in the future? Chris Taylor: Well, yeah, because if there's success on the console, people are going to stop making them on the PC because of my earlier point, what's happened on the PC with piracy. The economics are ugly right now on the PC. You're not going to see these gigantic, epic investments of dollars on the PC when it just doesn't work. The economics have to work. You're going to see those investments made on the console side and it's going to become a more console-centric investment. And then you're going to see them ported back over to the PC and that creates a different experience on the PC. That's just wild, that's just some talking. That's not really any deep thinking on my part. That's kind of like wild speculation, but if I were to guess I don't see RTS games going away at all. People love them too much. They're too much fun. They're like first-person shooters. First-person shooters are obviously doing extraordinarily well on the console and they're not doing very well on the PC. I'm offering now a parallel to that for RTS games. Right now, if you're a big shooter developer, you're going to lead on a console and you're going to do a PC SKU after. You're not going to be your projections and thinking about your market as your PC. You're going to be thinking about your market on the console. So you're going to focus all of your creativity around your control scheme of your console, your audience of your console, the age group that you're going after on your console and what features they want. You're going to cater to that audience�It's going to be market driven. Right now it's up in the air, but right now the PC market is kind of voting with its dollars, if you will.

which is why im such an arsehole to thieving fuckwits that dont deserve to be playing games at all. way to go ruining it for those of us that take their gaming seriously.

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