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quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z LOL, you're incredibly naive then if you take people on face value. Their actions reflect they don't give a fuck how much 'collateral damage' is inflicted.

what? i am sure there is plenty of collateral damage inflicted by those that would rather not have done it. as there are plenty as you say, that don't give a fuck. i think its rather simplistic to assume every single person in the military enjoys butchering civilians.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN what? i am sure there is plenty of collateral damage inflicted by those that would rather not have done it. as there are plenty as you say, that don't give a fuck. i think its rather simplistic to assume every single person in the military enjoys butchering civilians.

I don't recall saying every single person or even making a specific and isolated reference to the military. But every single person does follow orders weather they like it or not. They serve a system that doesn't serve them. But this isn't about the military or people in it. They do not formulate policy and are nothing more than pawns serving as cannon fodder for the powers that be. And there are enough, not many, a small minority, but still enough examples of brave men and women in the armed forces who decide to follow their conscience over orders they receive. That included the US military and even the IDF.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z I don't recall saying every single person or even making a specific and isolated reference to the military. But every single person does follow orders weather they like it or not. They serve a system that doesn't serve them. But this isn't about the military or people in it. They do not formulate policy and are nothing more than pawns serving as cannon fodder for the powers that be. And there are enough, not many, a small minority, but still enough examples of brave men and women in the armed forces who decide to follow their conscience over orders they receive. That included the US military and even the IDF.

i guess im confused at whom i was taking "at face value".

quote:

THE Pentagon has released a video and audio tape that appears to confirm its charge that Iranian speedboats swarmed US warships in the Strait of Hormuz and radioed a threat to blow them up. The video, which the Pentagon said was taken from the bridge of the destroyer USS Hopper, showed fast boats approaching the warships at high speeds and racing around the Hopper, the USS Port Royal and the USS Ingraham. A man's voice is heard in an audio recording speak in English amid a sailor's urgent warnings to stay clear of the ship. "I am coming to you... You will explode in a few minutes,'' the voice is heard to say. he Pentagon has said that two of five Iranian speedboats also dropped white floating boxes in the path of the Ingraham, but that was not evident in the four minute 20-second video file. The blue-hulled speedboats appear first as small objects on the horizon, approaching the Hopper. A sailor in the bridge of the destroyer is seen in the video picking up a radio handset and identifying his vessel as a coalition warship engaged in a transit in international waters. "You are approaching coalition warships in international waters,'' he says as the ship's horns begin to sound. "Establish communications, identify yourself and state your intentions. Over.'' The video then jumps to shots of the speedboats circling and darting among the two trailing US warships - the Port Royal, a cruiser, and the Ingraham, a frigate. The Pentagon has said that the speedboats were believed to belong to the Iranian Revolutionary Guard navy, but no Iranian flags or markings were apparent on them in the video tape. The US sailor in the video refers to them as five unidentified small craft. The video ends but the audio continues with the sound of the man's voice saying, I am coming to you.'' The same voice as the sailor seen in the video is heard warning: "Inbound small craft, you are approaching a coalition warship operating in international waters. Your identity is not known, your intentions are unclear... "Establish communications now, and alter course immediately to remain clear,'' he said. "We request you alter course immediately to remain clear.'' At that point, the other voice is heard to say: "You will explode in a few minutes.'' US President George W. Bush blamed Tehran for the "provocative'' face-off. "We viewed it as a provocative act. It is a dangerous situation and they should not have done it, pure and simple,'' Mr Bush declared in his first public remarks on the incident. "My message today to the Iranians is, they shouldn't have done what they did,'' he said. "I don't know what their thinking was, but I'm telling you what I think it was, I think it was a provocative act.'' Iran denied the US charges that its patrol boats had threatened to blow up the American ships. "What happened between the Guards and foreign vessels was an ordinary identification,'' Ali Reza Tangsiri, commander of the Guards' naval forces in the region, told the Mehr news agency. He said the Guards' naval forces had a right to monitor and identify "any vessel entering Persian Gulf waters'' to the northwest.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,2359...415-401,00.html

^^^

looks like Iran was just fuckin with their heads,and looks like they did a good job.

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer ^^^ looks like Iran was just fuckin with their heads,and looks like they did a good job.

how can you so casually dismiss something like that (assuming its accurate)? after the carl vinson they're lucky they werent blown out of the water.

its incidents like this that start wars, you know

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN how can you so casually dismiss something like that (assuming its accurate)? after the carl vinson they're lucky they werent blown out of the water. its incidents like this that start wars, you know

I know what you are saying PKC,and to be honeset this whole thing doesnt make alot of sense,there is probably something that we dont know about this story.I wouldnt be surprised if the U.S is overexadurating this incident.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo i know those boats. the U.S.S. Port Royal and the U.S.S. Hopper. they are out of Pearl Harbor and complete hunks of shit. just kidding. the Ingraham i'm not familiar with. these units are there on an International mandate. the only Gulf state that does not want them there is guess who? Iran. Iran was baiting them to fire on them. it would obviously be a win/win situation for Iran if we had. that, in itself, is the most troubling. our units probably have a go/no go range (they probably have them in stages). in other words there are different ranges that they will attach different firing priorities to given hostile contacts. if a hostile comes within those range circles at given speeds or angles of attack, there are certain rules of engagement the Captain will specify automatically. obviously the Iranians were outside the "die mutherfukker" range. you can expect Iran to test them again. Iran could be doing it for shits and grins or they could be doing it to drive up oil prices who knows. it's way overblown and again, those Units are there on an International mandate. that obviously won't stop the rabble from BLAME AMERICA FIRST!!!!! EDIT> i just realized i used "obviously" three times in this post. sweet.

I'll go with the shits and grins rationale. Seems like they're being that little bratty middle-child kid who didn't get enough attention and wants any attention now no matter if it's positive or negative. I'd say they're trying to rub it in our faces after the intelligence report coming up a little empty for Bush on Iran's nuke capabilities.

Other than that, I can't see what they have to gain for provoking the Navy at all.

Iran is still mightily pissed off about a lot of stuff from the past 100 years; a lot of foreign interference, and now today they want to show the world, and especially their #1 & 2 enemies that they won't be pushed around anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Iran is still mightily pissed off about a lot of stuff from the past 100 years; a lot of foreign interference, and now today they want to show the world, and especially their #1 & 2 enemies that they won't be pushed around anymore.

yeah, coz iran never interferes with any other countries.

im surprised to see people apologising for such a brutally oppressive regime. they hacked off some hands and feet of burglars just last week. at least now if they re-offend they'll be easier to catch.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Iran is still mightily pissed off about a lot of stuff from the past 100 years; a lot of foreign interference, and now today they want to show the world, and especially their #1 & 2 enemies that they won't be pushed around anymore.

The U.S has been sticking its nose in Irans politics for years,and now Iran is giving them a taste of their own medicine.

As you said it youself Iran will not be pushed around by the west anymore,those days are over.

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN yeah, coz iran never interferes with any other countries. im surprised to see people apologising for such a brutally oppressive regime. they hacked off some hands and feet of burglars just last week. at least now if they re-offend they'll be easier to catch.

"brutally opressive regime"? you think they are the only nation that punish their criminals in such way?come on man I know you are better then this.

quote:

Originally posted by MisterOpus1 I'd say they're trying to rub it in our faces after the intelligence report coming up a little empty for Bush on Iran's nuke capabilities.

youre reading too much into it like me suggesting the oil prices rationale.

I believe what was seen yesterday is the perpetuation of a cat and mouse game. probably going back decades, long before Iraqi Freedom anyways. Iran and U.S. have had a fairly precarious and fairly deadly relationship for years in these same waters. conflicting powers do this all the time when in such close proximity. we buzz eachother back and forth. small retaliations for things we do to eachothers military. you can be certain that on one occasion or another we've buzzed them in the recent past in a similar vein. you just don't here about it (not because of some nefarious cover-up either like you're inclined to think. it's simply not covered by either side publicly). this time they came out 3 miles into International waters to make a point. i really have no proof of this, so whatever.

quote:

Other than that, I can't see what they have to gain for provoking the Navy at all.

it's the old victimization game. we light up one of their little Scarabs with Ticonderoga's 5" gun for acting a fool and they can obfuscate and spin it a thousand different ways from Sunday with "BIG BAD GREAT SATAN AMERICA FLEXES IT"S OPPRESSIVE IMPERIALIST NAVY MUSCLE blah blah blah....." rabble the world over, Western and Arab, will eat that shit up like pancakes. this thread is a fine example of that.

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer "brutally opressive regime"? you think they are the only nation that punish their criminals in such way?

haha, of course not! but this doesn't change the fact that they are one of them i have contempt for lots of countries!

as for "brutally oppressive", we're not going to bother arguing that are we? they execute homosexuals ffs. if the law of the land has executed girls after they were raped, what might go on in the private sphere due too much islamic influence? yes, i know iran is a persian country, but its the arab islamic part that seems to be carrying the day at the minute. their ultimate ruler isn't elected, and will always be a "spiritual" leader if the status quo remains.

we can debate all moral relativist if you like, but none of ^^ sits well with me, and im sure you agree.

getting interesting already, i'm believing Irans count on this and not the United States version.

Coincidence it's happening just before Bush is arriving to gain support for war against Iran and to make more Anti-Iranian rhetorics.

Iran says US navy video is fake

quote:

Originally posted by Lemonad getting interesting already, i'm believing Irans count on this and not the United States version. Coincidence it's happening just before Bush is arriving to gain support for war against Iran and to make more Anti-Iranian rhetorics. Iran says US navy video is fake

the plot thickens! well now, i don't believe either of them then! the jury is still out it seems. let's see if the tape can be independently authenticated.

quote:

"I am coming to you... You will explode in a few minutes," the voice is heard to say.

I am willing to call this BS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRbY...hp?hl=en&tab=wn

The video seems REDICULOUSLY fishy to me... basically that is the best video we could get????? How do they know it was Iran in those Pro Bass fishing boats , and also the guy on the audio sounds amazingly BAD! I'm sorry but I was

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN yeah, coz iran never interferes with any other countries. im surprised to see people apologising for such a brutally oppressive regime. they hacked off some hands and feet of burglars just last week. at least now if they re-offend they'll be easier to catch.

Hey, Iran isn't sending in 150,000 troops into foreign countries are they? Iran's training and support of militant groups is just as the US support for Contra rebels in Nicaragua, or mujaheddin in Afghanistan, both in 1980's. Is the US somehow exempt from any criticism of supporting armed foreign opposition groups?

Also, Iran is hardly the oppressive, Orwellian state the western media tries to portray of Iran. It is actually one of the most progressive/metropolitan society in the Middle East, albeit more restrictive, but not a Taliban state as Fox News might have you believe.

Some of you may want to watch this if all you've seen of Iran is nothing but Fox New Alerts and screaming protesters....

BBC Journalist Omar Regeh goes inside Tehran to experience Persian society first-hand, and examine whether the west's assumptions of Iran are true...

[[ LINK REMOVED ]]

Straight out of Israel...

I bet you he won't give two shits about Palestinian grievances while he's there in the region. It will all be about, "how can we protect the occupation?"

quote:

Bush warns Iran of consequences if U.S. ships attacked 1 hour, 52 minutes ago JERUSALEM (Reuters) - U.S. President George W. Bush warned Iran on Wednesday of "serious consequences" if it attacked U.S. ships in the Gulf. "My advice to them is don't do it," Bush said at news conference in Israel, days after Washington said Iranian boats aggressively approached three U.S. Naval ships in the Strait of Hormuz, a major oil shipping route off Iran's coast, and threatened that the ships would explode. "We have made it clear publicly and they know our position, and that is there will be serious consequences if they attack our ships, pure and simple," Bush said.

I don't really "trust" either side on this, but it really does scream bullshit to me.

How did the US ships allow these guys to get in so close, only to say mean things at them if they didn't stop? They were only hundred of yards from the escorts of a carrier battle group. That just doesn't happen unless they wanted it to happen.

Sure the Iranians are likely just egging them on, but still.

It's interesting drama that's for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Hey, Iran isn't sending in 150,000 troops into foreign countries are they?

the US has every right to be in afghanistan. obviously not iraq

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Iran's training and support of militant groups is just as the US support for Contra rebels in Nicaragua, or mujaheddin in Afghanistan, both in 1980's. Is the US somehow exempt from any criticism of supporting armed foreign opposition groups?

again, i am left to wonder why you keep turning this around into a US bashing exercise when i am talking about iran. is that the norm these days? oooh, i don't like what's going on in pakistan at the moment- "yeah, well what about the US!". get over it, that's not what im talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton Also, Iran is hardly the oppressive, Orwellian state the western media tries to portray of Iran. It is actually one of the most progressive/metropolitan society in the Middle East, albeit more restrictive, but not a Taliban state as Fox News might have you believe.

yeah, real metropolitan. killing homos, rape victims, butchering thieves, cracking down on western influence, letting their religion become their state. can't wait to move there!

quote:

Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN yeah, real metropolitan. killing homos, rape victims, butchering thieves, cracking down on western influence, letting their religion become their state. can't wait to move there!

No one's denying that. The Middle East in general has failed to be a bastion of freedom, are we going to change them by force? China ffs eventually learned, free markets are the way to go. The Middle East will too.

But we need to settle Israel/Palestine question PERMANENTLY. I think we can all agree on that...

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo youre reading too much into it like me suggesting the oil prices rationale.

Fair enough.

quote:

I believe what was seen yesterday is the perpetuation of a cat and mouse game. probably going back decades, long before Iraqi Freedom anyways. Iran and U.S. have had a fairly precarious and fairly deadly relationship for years in these same waters. conflicting powers do this all the time when in such close proximity. we buzz eachother back and forth. small retaliations for things we do to eachothers military. you can be certain that on one occasion or another we've buzzed them in the recent past in a similar vein. you just don't here about it (not because of some nefarious cover-up either like you're inclined to think. it's simply not covered by either side publicly). this time they came out 3 miles into International waters to make a point. i really have no proof of this, so whatever.

Sounds reasonably plausible to me. And no, I'm not thinking of some sinister plot or cover-up at all. I have suspicions here and there, but honestly they weren't terribly invoked this time around. Seems fairly straightforward like you surmise.

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