Patriots or Giants this Sunday???

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Posted by KrisSC2000 on Feb-01-2008 17:49:

quote:
Originally posted by skizzell
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spygate

NEVER FORGET.

ITA!!! I can't really get over this as if the Pats do win, I will always see it as a tarnished victory since they cheated (or at least attempted to) when playing the Jets of all teams. Yet, I can't bring myself to want the Giants to win as I am a huge Cowboys fan and I refuse to root for another team in the NFC East to win! Moreover, Eli is a total whiner.... So I'm at a loss on this one.

Posted by DJ_JB on Feb-01-2008 18:02:

quote:
Originally posted by KrisSC2000
ITA!!! I can't really get over this as if the Pats do win, I will always see it as a tarnished victory since they cheated (or at least attempted to) when playing the Jets of all teams. Yet, I can't bring myself to want the Giants to win as I am a huge Cowboys fan and I refuse to root for another team in the NFC East to win! Moreover, Eli is a total whiner.... So I'm at a loss on this one.

WOOT WOOT...another Cowboys fan

I migrated from texas years ago...so I am die hard...needless to say that this superbowl leaves a HORRIBLE taste in my mouth.

But because I have been invited to watch it with friends, beer, and endless food...who do I hate the most...hemmmmm...the Patriots.

So I will be rootin' for the Giants only because I so don't want to hear the PERFECT Patriots blah blah blah till next season.

But for the record...I don't like either team in the slightest

Posted by 72hrpartyanimal on Feb-01-2008 18:08:

This game is all about bragging rights on the East Coast...

We should cause some trouble in the New York/Boston forums!!!

Posted by the_jerk on Feb-01-2008 20:09:

Like I said before, I am not a Patriots fan. But anyone that says the Patriots perfect season is somehow tarnished because of spygate doesn't know the first thing about football.

Every team attempts to "spy" on the other during games to figure out what audibles or play signals are. It happens at every level - high school, college and of course professional. Look at most coaches when they call in plays - they put the play sheet over their mouth.

Posted by skell on Feb-01-2008 20:57:

Posted by psychedelic_Ed on Feb-01-2008 21:01:

Let's go Giants. I don't like either of the Mannings, but Brady makes me sick. Plus, I just moved to NYC so it's kinda nice to have a home team to root for.

Maybe I'll move back to LA when they get a team. haha

Posted by BLOWZO on Feb-01-2008 21:07:

got some great videos for you

16-0

18-0 ..one more to go

Posted by KrisSC2000 on Feb-01-2008 22:22:

quote:
Originally posted by the_jerk
Like I said before, I am not a Patriots fan. But anyone that says the Patriots perfect season is somehow tarnished because of spygate doesn't know the first thing about football.

Every team attempts to "spy" on the other during games to figure out what audibles or play signals are. It happens at every level - high school, college and of course professional. Look at most coaches when they call in plays - they put the play sheet over their mouth.

Page 105 of the 2007 NFL Game Operations Manual states, "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game...All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead. The rules clearly stipulate that ...any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited...that might aid a team during the playing of a game."

Patriots� staff were cheating and Eric Mangini knew it as he was the Patriots Defensive Backs coach from 2000-2004 and then Defensive Coordinator in 2005. He was a part of Belicheck's "sign-stealing surveillance tactics and he shared the dirty little secret with members of the Jets' organization" and was just hoping to catch them in the act. Luckily, he succeeded.

IMHO, covering your mouth with a play sheet and having a staff member video tape the hand signals from the Jets' defensive coaches on the sideline is not an accurate comparison for several reasons. Sending a staff member with a video recorder with this intention indicates that this was all pre-planned, whereas reading someone's lips across the field when calling a play doesn't suggest any pre-planning with the intent to gain from it at half time when they can make adjustments, etc. (I'm not saying that reading lips its not cheating either). Secondly, if it was just about reading lips then it would give both teams equal opportunity to try and read lips, however this was not the case. When Patriot video assistant, Matt Estrella, was caught while trying to take the video into the locker room just before half time, he resisted giving it up until it was finally taken out of his possession. An animated discussion ensued that involved league security and it lasted more than an hour when it became so heated that New Jersey state troopers were summoned as a precaution (Daily News, Dec 10, 2007). Obviously, Estrella didn�t want the Jets or the NFL to see what he was doing, otherwise he would have handed it over without any issue. It's my experience that people who have nothing to hide will hide nothing for obvious reasons.

As for Belicheck, I also don't buy into the idea that he didn't clearly understand and "misinterpreted the rules." Anyone in the NFL who is a coach, player, or even refs., should know the rules and be accountable for following them. Belicheck stated that he "believed that if footage collected was not used during the game, then its collection was legal," whereas the rules CLEARLY state that "...any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited at any time as it may aid a team during the playing of a game." I still can�t see where his confusion or misunderstanding is with this rule.

Finally, if you are implying that just because most teams attempt to spy (whether it be HS, college, NFL) makes it okay or acceptable, that's just ridiculous IMHO. I will never buy into the maxims of "well, if you can't beat 'em then join 'em." or "everyone attempts to spy," then that makes it acceptable. Granted I will never coach a football team, but I refuse to subscribe to this form of reasoning that somehow rationalizes cheating.

Obviously we will always disagree on this issue. My opinion about how the Pat's image will always be tarnished in my mind is just simply my opinion. But saying that we "don't know anything about football" is taking it a bit far as we all have a right to an opinion and many who hold this same opinion have been or are currently part of the NFL, including the NFL Commisioner who imposed fines for their actions. With that being said, have a great time watching the game and a wonderful weekend!

Posted by skell on Feb-01-2008 22:31:

quote:
Originally posted by KrisSC2000

Booyah.

Posted by the_jerk on Feb-01-2008 22:39:

Article shown below from the NY daily News. See Jimmy Johnson's quote at the bottom. Also, I find it amusing that the Jets were the first team in the feud to get caught in the 2006 season.

Point is, every team is trying to get an edge. Here is another quote from Bill Cowher.

��Trying to steal signals is part of the game,� said retired Steeler Coach Bill Cowher.

quote:
The Jets-Patriots spy games became a national story in September, when the Patriots were busted for illegally videotaping Jets coaches from the sideline at the Meadowlands. Unbeknownst to the public, the two teams engaged in video warfare throughout the 2006 season.

At a game in Foxborough, a Jets employee was caught videotaping from the end-zone stands, according to a league source. The camera wasn't confiscated and the incident wasn't reported to the league, but Patriots officials were miffed. Just recently, a team official mentioned the incident in a conversation about this Sunday's Jets-Patriots game.

"(There's) absolutely no truth to that whatsoever," Jets GM Mike Tannenbaum told the Daily News in September, responding when the story was first reported by Foxsports.com. "Completely false."

The Jets claim they received approval from the Patriots to film at that location.

Before the Foxborough incident, the Jets sniffed out a Patriots spy at the September, 2006 game at the Meadowlands, according to a person with knowledge of the situation. At the time, the Jets didn't report it because they were unable to confiscate the camera or the tape.

"They caught the guy a year ago, but couldn't do anything about it," the person told the Daily News in the aftermath of the Spy-Gate scandal in September. "When Eric (Mangini) came, he said that's what they used to do" in New England.

Mangini is a former Patriots assistant who worked under current New England coach Bill Belichick.

There are specific rules that restrict videotaping at games. According to one, no video recording devices are permitted in the coaches' booth, the sideline or the locker room. Based on that rule, the Jets didn't do anything illegal last year at Gillette Stadium.

However, another part of the rule states that videotaping for coaching purposes must be done from locations "enclosed from all sides with a roof overhead."

Ultimately, the Patriots were caught on opening day by Jets security, taping the Jets' defensive coaches giving signals. The camera and the tape were confiscated by league security, and the NFL delivered harsh punishment. Belichick was fined $500,000, and the Patriots were docked a 2008 first-round pick and $250,000.

"It's no big deal," former Cowboys and Dolphins coach Jimmy Johnson told the Daily News yesterday. "Everybody made too much out of it when it happened. This stuff has been going on for 20 years. I did it, too."

Posted by skell on Feb-01-2008 22:44:

quote:
Originally posted by the_jerk
Article shown below from the NY daily News. See Jimmy Johnson's quote at the bottom. Also, I find it amusing that the Jets were the first team in the feud to get caught in the 2006 season.

Point is, every team is trying to get an edge. Here is another quote from Bill Cowher.

��Trying to steal signals is part of the game,� said retired Steeler Coach Bill Cowher.

Then I guess using steroids in the 90s and 2000s was 'a part of the game' in MLB. We should just give everyone a break...especially the people abiding by the RULES, eh?

I respect Cowher, but spare me. Also, what did one of the greatest coaches in NFL history (Don Shula) have to say about this?

Posted by KrisSC2000 on Feb-01-2008 22:49:

quote:
Originally posted by the_jerk
Article shown below from the NY daily News. See Jimmy Johnson's quote at the bottom. Also, I find it amusing that the Jets were the first team in the feud to get caught in the 2006 season.

Point is, every team is trying to get an edge. Here is another quote from Bill Cowher.

��Trying to steal signals is part of the game,� said retired Steeler Coach Bill Cowher.

This doesn't change anything. can't seem to rationalize this belief that would make cheating okay just because retired coaches talk about doing it in the past (Cowher and Johnson). If they particiapte in it and get caught, then get what they deserve. And for many of us, we will ALWAYS see the 2007 Pat's as "cheaters" and see their 18-0 record as "tarnished."

Posted by KrisSC2000 on Feb-01-2008 22:51:

quote:
Originally posted by skizzell
I respect Cowher, but spare me. Also, what did one of the greatest coaches in NFL history (Don Shula) have to say about this?

Don Shula stated "The Spygate thing has diminished what they've accomplished. You would hate to have that attached to your accomplishments. They've got it. ...I guess you got the same thing as putting an asterisk by Barry Bonds' home run record. I guess it will be noted that the Patriots were fined and a number-one draft choice was taken away during that year of accomplishment. The sad thing is Tom Brady looks so good, it doesn't look like he needs any help."

Posted by Techno_Twins on Feb-01-2008 22:54:

It's the Patriots year, not saying I am a fan but they have the best offense and defense out of any team this year!

Posted by the_jerk on Feb-01-2008 23:10:

quote:
Originally posted by KrisSC2000
Don Shula stated "The Spygate thing has diminished what they've accomplished. You would hate to have that attached to your accomplishments. They've got it. ...I guess you got the same thing as putting an asterisk by Barry Bonds' home run record. I guess it will be noted that the Patriots were fined and a number-one draft choice was taken away during that year of accomplishment. The sad thing is Tom Brady looks so good, it doesn't look like he needs any help."

Yeah, Shula did say that. But he later backed off his comments. Of course, that got much less press. Here is what he said next:

And Shula backtracked Thursday when discussing the Patriots on ESPN�s �Mike and Mike in the Morning.�

�If they run the table, and they win all the games, then they are doing it within the rules of the National Football League,� Shula told ESPN. �And there shouldn�t be any asterisk to it. That would be the accomplishment that they made. It would be the best in all of sports.�

Posted by 72hrpartyanimal on Feb-01-2008 23:25:

They are cheaters:

TUCK RULE!!!!

That's some bullshit goddamn!

Posted by the_jerk on Feb-01-2008 23:36:

quote:
Originally posted by 72hrpartyanimal
They are cheaters:

TUCK RULE!!!!

That's some bullshit goddamn!

HAHA! I am surprised you haven't brought up the fact that Randy Moss mailed it in for 2 years in Oakland. On top of that, Oakland had to give up a 1st round (7th overall) pick for Moss, and then got a lousy 4th rounder in return 2 years later.

You have to have some kind of dedication to be a Raiders fan. I admire that

Posted by 72hrpartyanimal on Feb-01-2008 23:41:

quote:
Originally posted by KrisSC2000

BTW: This person RAWKS... aren't you a Sopranos fan too?? I don't know if that was you or someone else!

(go RAIDERS!)

Posted by BLOWZO on Feb-02-2008 01:13:

18-0... cough ..... take that one game away and it's 17-1 hmmmmm I think that's still first place.

Posted by 72hrpartyanimal on Feb-02-2008 01:28:

quote:
Originally posted by the_jerk
HAHA! I am surprised you haven't brought up the fact that Randy Moss mailed it in for 2 years in Oakland. On top of that, Oakland had to give up a 1st round (7th overall) pick for Moss, and then got a lousy 4th rounder in return 2 years later.

You have to have some kind of dedication to be a Raiders fan. I admire that

yeah... you do...

fine line between genius/insanity and dedication/stupidity!

at this point i choose the latter.

BUT FUCK IT!!!

RAIDER NATION ALL THE WAY BABYYYYY!!!

(we just need Al Davis to croak)

Posted by KrisSC2000 on Feb-02-2008 01:41:

quote:
Originally posted by 72hrpartyanimal
BTW: This person RAWKS... aren't you a Sopranos fan too?? I don't know if that was you or someone else!

(go RAIDERS!)

That would be me :-) I miss Sopranos and I do recall a fun debate on this board after the last episode as to whether or not Tony was dead or alive.

Have a wonderful weekend and enjoy the game!

Posted by 72hrpartyanimal on Feb-02-2008 01:44:

quote:
Originally posted by KrisSC2000
That would be me :-) I miss Sopranos and I do recall a fun debate on this board after the last episode as to whether or not Tony was dead or alive.

Have a wonderful weekend and enjoy the game!

Right back at ya!!!

(go Giants too)

Posted by broiler on Feb-03-2008 06:00:

Disclaimer: I'm a native Bostonian and I moved to LA a year ago.
I love the Patriots and I hope they kick some major ass tomorrow. My take on the whole thing (from a biased standpoint, of course) is that, although all teams did do it, we happened to get caught because of a spiteful ex-coach. That doesn't make it okay, but we were made an example of by the league. Don Shula has said negative things because he has a vested interest in this situation and understandably, he hopes the Pats lose. If the Patriots win tomorrow, they should be considered the greatest team of all time.

Okay, now that I've said that, you know what? In the grand scheme of things, sports do not mean anything! It is just a nice escape in ln life!