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Originally posted by Krypton Oh excuse me. Fundamentalist Christian is a better description. WTF is your point? Are you denying that a fundamentalist christian leads the most the powerful nation on earth?

and what's the difference between his fundamental christian beliefs and yours? why are yours OK but his not?

Evangelicals do not rule this country. That was a fairly silly hyperbole.

I also don't buy the "Zionist alliance" argument - there seems to be some rather reactionary tendencies concerning Israel/Palestine on these boards whereby any reference to religion becomes evangelical and any tacit support for Israel becomes tantamount to anti-Arab Zionism.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN why is it hypocrisy to oppose iran's nuclear program? last time i checked, two wrongs dont make a right. the proliferation of nuclear weapons is a serious business and just because some states have them does not, a priori, give all states the right to have them as well. global politics isnt about equality, i hate to tell you. how many nations have veto powers on the UN security council? saying iran should have nuclear weapons because israel does is just awful logic. how on earth will we EVER disarm the world if we're constantly allowing more and more countries to develop WMD? its ludicious to argue that iran has any inherent "right" to atomic weapons. at least we know israel can be trusted with such weapons, by virtue of not having used them or provided nuclear technology to others (that i know of). of course there is a "religious component" in regards to nuclear weapons, but its more related to the jihadists and their propensity for supporting martyrdom and the end of days in israel than some influence of the christian right in america (which does exist obviously but its not all-powerful like you seem to think), it certianly isnt enough to explain the nature of the WORLD's support and acceptance of the israeli state.

First of all, I never stated that I want Iran to have nuclear weapons. What I said was I believe it is hypocrisy that Israel illegally developed its own WMD program, without the international inspections or scrutiny that Iran is being placed under. In fact, Israel still denies they even have WMDs. They have imprisoned Vanunu, the guy who disclosed Israel's nuclear program, they've imprisoned him in SOLITARY CONFINEMENT for over 10 years. Now, if Vananu were Iranian and disclosed a supposed Iranian nuclear weapons program, he'd be hailed a hero worldwide. But nooooo. Israel is immune from such scrutiny. The guy who proved to the world Israel had an ILLEGAL nuclear weapons program is still to this day, rotting away in 23 hour lockdown.

EDIT: Vanunu was also kidnapped by the Mossad in Rome, Italy, which is against international law.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN and what's the difference between his fundamental christian beliefs and yours? why are yours OK but his not?

Because I would not pre-emptively start a war. Because I would not throw unjustified amounts of support to a distant small foreign country because they are the "chosen people". Nothing justifies the US support for Israel, the numerous blocking of UN Security Council Resolutions denouncing Israeli atrocities and actions, nothing. Not economics, not national security; the Cold War is even over. There is no justification other than the ideological explaination or religious alliance.

I don't believe in morality crusades legislated by the government. Morality is a solely religious study which should not be the basis of any policy by the white house. So every time I hear, "We will bring democracy to the Middle East," I cring and think, "Oh god, another morality crusade by the government!"

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Originally posted by Krypton WTF is your point?

my point is for you to do your f**kin homework, "for one"

...and stop creating fear out of thin air.

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Originally posted by Krypton First of all, I never stated that I want Iran to have nuclear weapons. What I said was I believe it is hypocrisy that Israel illegally developed its own WMD program, without the international inspections or scrutiny that Iran is being placed under.

iran isnt/wasnt surrounded by nations that want to obliterate it. but nobody here is arguing that they should have developed nuclear weapons, but they have. how is opposing iran's supposed development program "hypocritical"? last time i checked israel didnt have leaders asking for the destruction of iran.

Considering some of the people that hold power in iran, their links to terrorist groups that engage israel on a regular basis, the undemocratic nature of the country, the possibility of civil unrest and change that could destabilise protection of such assets - israel possessing the bomb is qualitatively different.

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Originally posted by Krypton In fact, Israel still denies they even have WMDs. They have imprisoned Vanunu, the guy who disclosed Israel's nuclear program, they've imprisoned him in SOLITARY CONFINEMENT for over 10 years.

which is exactly what iran would do if the same thing was done there. or britain or the US for that matter. I don�t agree with it, but such is life.

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Originally posted by Krypton Now, if Vananu were Iranian and disclosed a supposed Iranian nuclear weapons program, he'd be hailed a hero worldwide.

Vananu IS hailed as a hero by some, and if an iranian did the same SOME people would hail him as a hero, whilst the iranian took him away and probably execute him. who gives a shit?

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Originally posted by Krypton But nooooo. Israel is immune from such scrutiny. The guy who proved to the world Israel had an ILLEGAL nuclear weapons program is still to this day, rotting away in 23 hour lockdown.

your problem is that youre american and you see everything through the tarnish of what you have to put up with every day in your own country. the rest of the world is not nearly as one-eyed and pro-israeli as the US is so stop making statements to that effect. FYI last time i checked Vananu was free to move within israeli borders.

find me a notable statesmen that leaked top-secret documents regarding security that DIDNT end up in prison.

Iran and israel do not have the same levels of trust, for some pretty obvious reasons. To say that they are equivalent is rather na�ve, as is the assertion that a nuclear-armed israel is on the same "danger meter" (and thus should receive the same attention) as a nuclear armed iran. The entire UN wants iran to stop its nuclear enrichment, so why are you barking on about israel as if it�s the same thing?

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Originally posted by Q5echo my point is for you to do your f**kin homework, "for one"

Moot point. You're just crying about a technicality in names! You have no point! Why did you even say anything in this thread to begin with!? How about acknowledging the topic at hand and saying something about that instead of trying to poke holes at dumb ole krypton ay?

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...and stop creating fear out of thin air.

Quite possibly the funniest thing I've read all day. I like this one better. . .

"I've told people that if you're interested in avoiding World War III, it seems like you ought to be interested in preventing them (Iran) from having the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon," Bush said.

EVEN THOUGH Iran has a right to nuclear power!! Odd isn't it?

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Originally posted by Krypton Because I would not pre-emptively start a war.

bush's religious views had zero to do with the war in iraq. but his views certainly do sound rather similar to yours.

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Originally posted by Krypton Because I would not throw unjustified amounts of support to a distant small foreign country because they are the "chosen people".

So, your contention is that US religious influence has perpetuated the US' support of israel during the entire last 6 decades or so. Some evidence more than your assertions would be welcome. seriously, the idea is retarded. if your religious right is so freaking powerful then how come we dont see republicans winning every election?

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Originally posted by Krypton Nothing justifies the US support for Israel,

you mean other than a strategic ally in the middle east?

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Originally posted by Krypton the numerous blocking of UN Security Council Resolutions denouncing Israeli atrocities and actions, nothing.

true.

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Originally posted by Krypton Not economics, not national security; the Cold War is even over. There is no justification other than the ideological explaination or religious alliance.

the "religious alliance" view is retarded.

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Originally posted by Krypton I don't believe in morality crusades legislated by the government. Morality is a solely religious study which should not be the basis of any policy by the white house. So every time I hear, "We will bring democracy to the Middle East," I cring and think, "Oh god, another morality crusade by the government!"

Fuck, you're so short-sighted. Everything you understand is tied to your current understanding of american politics and its relationship to george bush. The idea that the US has been on a "morality crusade" during the last 60 years is absurd. If it IS on a crusade now, well, im sure it will end at some stage with a new government. Why is everything always so extreme with you? The sky is always falling in your world, I don�t get it.

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Originally posted by Krypton Well, have you heard what evengical leaders like Pat Robertson say that christians (USA) and jews should come together for Israel as if such an alliance is divinely inspired?

No, but I have zero interest in religion, Religious Leaders, or what "god" supposedly wants in all of this. I think if you didn't, and the rest of the world didn't either, the Jews wouldn't have found it necessary to stake out a claim of land for themselves over there.

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Originally posted by Krypton Is that a wish of death?

If you are a proponent of war on religious grounds, then yes, it is.

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Originally posted by shaolin_Z Actually, no. The "other" side happen to be the native indigenous population, the real semitic Palestinians, Chrisitans, and Jews living in the region. Not your Ashkhenazi European / Slovic immigrants. By that logic, I guess you blame the native American Indians for being virtually extinct too?

You're missing my point;

I'm not supporting Israel anymore than I'm supporting Palestine. My point is that we have two basic factions who want to kill each other over some speck of land that SUPPOSEDLY, "God" has something to do with.

Given that there is ZERO proof that "God" even exists, I find it sad/unbelievable/comical/pathetic that as advanced as the human race is, we're running around killing each other over ancient fairy-tales about Deities.

Think about it.

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Originally posted by Krypton EVEN THOUGH Iran has a right to nuclear power!! Odd isn't it?

this is what i'm talking about, you always wading in the shallow end of the intellectual pool.

it's impossible for you to make simple, yet fundamental, distinctions about any topic

NO ONE IS STOPPING IRAN FROM HAVING NUCLEAR POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

they're an internationally recognized State sponsor of international terror. THEY DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEVELOP NUCLEAR WEAPONS!!!!!!!!!!

all we, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, is asking is for some f**king transparency. thats it!

DO YOUR FUCKING HOMEWORK!!!!!!!!!

you are like the dumbest, most easiest led kid on this board. seriously.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN iran isnt/wasnt surrounded by nations that want to obliterate it. but nobody here is arguing that they should have developed nuclear weapons, but they have. how is opposing iran's supposed development program "hypocritical"? last time i checked israel didnt have leaders asking for the destruction of iran. Considering some of the people that hold power in iran, their links to terrorist groups that engage israel on a regular basis, the undemocratic nature of the country, the possibility of civil unrest and change that could destabilise protection of such assets - israel possessing the bomb is qualitatively different. which is exactly what iran would do if the same thing was done there. or britain or the US for that matter. I don�t agree with it, but such is life. Vananu IS hailed as a hero by some, and if an iranian did the same SOME people would hail him as a hero, whilst the iranian took him away and probably execute him. who gives a shit? your problem is that youre american and you see everything through the tarnish of what you have to put up with every day in your own country. the rest of the world is not nearly as one-eyed and pro-israeli as the US is so stop making statements to that effect. FYI last time i checked Vananu was free to move within israeli borders. find me a notable statesmen that leaked top-secret documents regarding security that DIDNT end up in prison. Iran and israel do not have the same levels of trust, for some pretty obvious reasons. To say that they are equivalent is rather na�ve, as is the assertion that a nuclear-armed israel is on the same "danger meter" (and thus should receive the same attention) as a nuclear armed iran. The entire UN wants iran to stop its nuclear enrichment, so why are you barking on about israel as if it�s the same thing?

I never said the world is one-eyed and pro-israeli. I said Israel does not get nearly the same scrutiny as Iran gets over nuclear weapons.

Granted, it's understandable if Vanunu was imprisoned for releasing national secrets, but the fact of the matter is, the entire nuclear weapons program was illegal, and so Vanunu is jailed for disclosing an international crime.

Additionally, is Israel all that much better ethically than Iran as you say so? I think not. Israel is certainly NO LESS guilty than Iran in committing war crimes, and to blame Islamic militants as the reason to committ such crimes is abismal. The reason Islamic militants are fighting in Palestine today is because of their failed state status and their belief that they were wronged in 1947.

Anyways, my point stands firm. The US-Israel alliance is hypocritical in the aspect of denouncing Iranian nuclear energy ambitions with no direct evidence whatsoever to any existing Iranian nuclear program, while COMPLETELY ignoring the illegal Israeli WMD program.

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Originally posted by Krypton I never said the world is one-eyed and pro-israeli. I said Israel does not get nearly the same scrutiny as Iran gets over nuclear weapons.

and nor should it. israel is a democratic government, you score points in the "trust" box when you hold real, proper elections.

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Originally posted by Krypton Granted, it's understandable if Vanunu was imprisoned for releasing national secrets, but the fact of the matter is, the entire nuclear weapons program was illegal, and so Vanunu is jailed for disclosing an international crime.

right - so its an "international crime" if israel is developing weapons, but its not if its iran?

Its an internal israeli matter, I really don�t see the relevance. Israel isnt considered by the international community to be a rogue state, which is why they are treated differently to iran. That's how international politics works.

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Originally posted by Krypton Additionally, is Israel all that much better ethically than Iran as you say so? I think not. Israel is certainly NO LESS guilty than Iran in committing war crimes, and to blame Islamic militants as the reason to committ such crimes is abismal.

This has NOTHING to do with "ethics". I have already stated, the difference is because israel is a democratic state that doesn't have ties to fringe groups all to ready to plant nuclear bombs in another state. Ive certainly never been one to defend israel's history of war crimes, but again that's really besides the point.

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Originally posted by Krypton The reason Islamic militants are fighting in Palestine today is because of their failed state status and their belief that they were wronged in 1947.

the reason Islamic militants are fighting is because that�s what islamic militants do. If they werent fighting israel and the great satan they'd just be figthing each other, don�t be na�ve.

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Originally posted by Krypton Anyways, my point stands firm. The US-Israel alliance is hypocritical in the aspect of denouncing Iranian nuclear energy ambitions with no direct evidence whatsoever to any existing Iranian nuclear program, while COMPLETELY ignoring the illegal Israeli WMD program.

finally - you've demonstrated your point. thank christ (no pun intended).

Israel gets better treatment from the global community because it is a free, democratic state without avowed goals to destroy other states or links to groups that do harbour such goals. If you think this is hypocritical then its time you opened your eyes a little and examined the nature of alliances around the world - enemies are treated differently to allies. Go figure.

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Originally posted by Krypton ...I said Israel does not get nearly the same scrutiny as Iran gets over nuclear weapons.

Israel doesn't have plans to use their nukes against the U.S. or it's interests, where-as Iran very well may. So why does that make it so hard for you understand why the U.S. is anti-Iranian?

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN bush's religious views had zero to do with the war in iraq. but his views certainly do sound rather similar to yours.

I never said they were. Starting a pre-emptive war doesn't sound like something Jesus would do, would it?

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So, your contention is that US religious influence has perpetuated the US' support of israel during the entire last 6 decades or so. Some evidence more than your assertions would be welcome. seriously, the idea is retarded. if your religious right is so freaking powerful then how come we dont see republicans winning every election? you mean other than a strategic ally in the middle east?

Never said religious influence was the basis for the 60 years of support for Israel. First of all, the Cold War was the basis for our support of Israel until it ended. Post-Cold War, the ideological view now is heavily rooted in religious influence of the highest echelons of power.

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the "religious alliance" view is retarded.

I don't think you've heard guys like Pastor Haggy calling all Christians to rally behind Israel which clearly would indicate a religious alliance of some sort.

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Fuck, you're so short-sighted. Everything you understand is tied to your current understanding of american politics and its relationship to george bush. The idea that the US has been on a "morality crusade" during the last 60 years is absurd. If it IS on a crusade now, well, im sure it will end at some stage with a new government. Why is everything always so extreme with you? The sky is always falling in your world, I don�t get it.

What do you call the drug prohibition? That is more than 60 years old. How about bringing democracy to Iraq. That sounds a lot like a morality crusade to me.

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If you are a proponent of war on religious grounds, then yes, it is.

I am clearly against pre-emptive warfare, so where did you get the idea I wanted to go to war?

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all we, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, is asking is for some f**king transparency. thats it!

Transparency? That's funny. Israel does not have inspections of their sites, do they now? Israel even denies the existance of the program. No one, including yourself, even gives that a second thought. . .

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Originally posted by Krypton The reason Islamic militants are fighting in Palestine today is because of their failed state status and their belief that they were wronged in 1947.

right.

so Arabs and Muslims and Jews all baked eachother pies and played songs prior to the Partition Plan?

...not because Jews were considered beastly animals since, i don't know, the 7th century?

did you say you went to college?

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Originally posted by Krypton I never said they were. Starting a pre-emptive war doesn't sound like something Jesus would do, would it?

oh, because christianity is about jesus!?

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Originally posted by Krypton Post-Cold War, the ideological view now is heavily rooted in religious influence of the highest echelons of power.

no.

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Originally posted by Krypton I don't think you've heard guys like Pastor Haggy calling all Christians to rally behind Israel which clearly would indicate a religious alliance of some sort.

not sure who haggy is but yes i have seen his ilk advocating israel, and some even calling for a nuclear war in the middle east to bring about armageddon. but no, these people do not pull the strings behind washington's foreign policy. such a view, in my opinion, is retarded, without evidence and only goes further to cement my opinion of you as some wacko conspiracy theorist who has found a new conspiracy of the week.

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Originally posted by Krypton What do you call the drug prohibition? That is more than 60 years old.

eh? most societies prohibit narcotics.

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Originally posted by Krypton How about bringing democracy to Iraq. That sounds a lot like a morality crusade to me.

oh, so it wasnt for WMD, or oil, or strategic interests. now its for spreading democracy. so you buy their excuse now do you? and for fucks sake, can we, even for a minute extend past your mypoic view of history and examine something OTHER than the bush administration? your government is older than that if you've never bothered to pay attention. governments and policies are transient, stop trying to paint your entire history of government with the same bush brush, its illogical and immature.

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Originally posted by Krypton Transparency? That's funny. Israel does not have inspections of their sites, do they now? Israel even denies the existance of the program. No one, including yourself, even gives that a second thought. . .

christ, who fucking cares? neither does china or russia or the UK or france. why not bark about them for awhile? - because there isnt some attractive juvenile conspiracy in relation to china and russia, so youre far less interested

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Originally posted by Krypton I never said they were. Starting a pre-emptive war doesn't sound like something Jesus would do, would it?

thats because Jesus is an Evangelical.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN and nor should it. israel is a democratic government, you score points in the "trust" box when you hold real, proper elections.

Why does it matter what government we're talking about here? Every country should be subject to international law equally.

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right - so its an "international crime" if israel is developing weapons, but its not if its iran?

According to the NIE report, Iran shut down it's nuclear weapons program in 2003. The Bush admin's case against Iran wouldn't hold up for 5 minutes in a courtroom.

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Its an internal israeli matter, I really don�t see the relevance. Israel isnt considered by the international community to be a rogue state, which is why they are treated differently to iran. That's how international politics works.

Israel violated international law, therefore making them a rogue state. It does not matter how conformed Israel is to western democracy.

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This has NOTHING to do with "ethics". I have already stated, the difference is because israel is a democratic state that doesn't have ties to fringe groups all to ready to plant nuclear bombs in another state. Ive certainly never been one to defend israel's history of war crimes, but again that's really besides the point.

This is alarming, but then again, there is no evidence to say Iran has a nuclear weapons program, unlike Israel where there is 100% proof of an illegal program.

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the reason Islamic militants are fighting is because that�s what islamic militants do. If they werent fighting israel and the great satan they'd just be figthing each other, don�t be na�ve.

Oh, so they like death and destruction as a pasttime right? Come on man! Look at the economic/geopolitical of the region. Autocratic regimes, economic poverty, and the question of what to do with the failed state of Palestine. If you don't understand the mind of a jihadist, I strongly suggest you study up on why they fight. It's not just for fun, I can tell you that!

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finally - you've demonstrated your point. thank christ (no pun intended). Israel gets better treatment from the global community because it is a free, democratic state without avowed goals to destroy other states or links to groups that do harbour such goals. If you think this is hypocritical then its time you opened your eyes a little and examined the nature of alliances around the world - enemies are treated differently to allies. Go figure.

Depending on where you stand, this is not 100% true. Israel has already destroyed the Palestineans ability to form a state. It's the OCCUPATION. Iran does not OCCUPY any other nation does it?

Also guys, telling me to open my eyes, and that I'm narrow minded will only you this. . . because I am putting 100% in trying to understand why things are the way they are, so forgive me for coming to conclusions which you disagree with, but I didn't just pull all this out of my ass. There is something really wrong with the entire picture, and it certainly isn't all because of a bunch of crazy Islamists, though I won't minimalize their impact.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco Israel doesn't have plans to use their nukes against the U.S. or it's interests, where-as Iran very well may. So why does that make it so hard for you understand why the U.S. is anti-Iranian?

You don;t even know that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, so your point is baseless.

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Originally posted by donnybrasco Israel doesn't have plans to use their nukes against the U.S. or it's interests, where-as Iran very well may. So why does that make it so hard for you understand why the U.S. is anti-Iranian?

oh I see so if a country is on the good side of U.S it is ok for them have nukes?

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Originally posted by Krypton Why does it matter what government we're talking about here? Every country should be subject to international law equally.

They should, and in this case they are. Israel is not a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty; Iran is.

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Originally posted by Krypton Transparency? That's funny.

it's the truth. some very honest, smart and non-religious people take it very seriously Iran having nuclear strike capability.

deal with it however you want but the fact remains that on an Inter-nation cooperative level Iran and only Iran remains untrustworthy for anything less than complete and total transpancy.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov They should, and in this case they are. Israel is not a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty; Iran is.

...and Bingo was his name-o

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN oh, because christianity is about jesus!?

EXACTLY PKC. I believe these guys are heretics.

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no.

YES!

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not sure who haggy is but yes i have seen his ilk advocating israel, and some even calling for a nuclear war in the middle east to bring about armageddon. but no, these people do not pull the strings behind washington's foreign policy. such a view, in my opinion, is retarded, without evidence and only goes further to cement my opinion of you as some wacko conspiracy theorist who has found a new conspiracy of the week.

Evidence? Are you serious? There OBVIOUSLY is a faction inside the government which protects Israel from all scrutiny. This is not a wacko conspiracy theory. This is reality. Have you ever examined the US voting record on the Security Council regarding Israel? For decades, the US has vetoed vote after vote denouncing Israeli crimes.

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eh? most societies prohibit narcotics.

Has it worked?

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oh, so it wasnt for WMD, or oil, or strategic interests. now its for spreading democracy. so you buy their excuse now do you? and for fucks sake, can we, even for a minute extend past your mypoic view of history and examine something OTHER than the bush administration? your government is older than that if you've never bothered to pay attention. governments and policies are transient, stop trying to paint your entire history of government with the same bush brush, its illogical and immature.

WTF are you talking about!? You never heard the administration state, "We're going to liberate the Iraqi's and bring them democracy."?? You can't be serious. . .

I also don't recall Reagan or Clinton or Nixon occupying Baghdad. It was the Bush admin, so to try to say I'm just another Bush bashing fanatic really means nothing because the action was perpetrated by that regime!!

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christ, who fucking cares? neither does china or russia or the UK or france. why not bark about them for awhile? - because there isnt some attractive juvenile conspiracy in relation to china and russia, so youre far less interested

Who cares? If we are to have any semblance of international law and order, don't you think ALL countries should be scrutinized EQUALLY under the law? Wow, dude, that's really scary...

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right. so Arabs and Muslims and Jews all baked eachother pies and played songs prior to the Partition Plan? ...not because Jews were considered beastly animals since, i don't know, the 7th century? did you say you went to college?

Another pointless Q post. . .

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Originally posted by Krypton Why does it matter what government we're talking about here? Every country should be subject to international law equally.

of course, i am not defending israel's previous activities, and i am a firm believer in nuclear disarmament. which is why i think the focus should be on iran and not allowing them to have to bomb, rather than concerning israel who has possessed the weapons for decades and never used them or threatened to use them. and they are only subject to internation law if they've signed the nuclear proliferation treaty, have they? i dont know off the top of my head.

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Originally posted by Krypton According to the NIE report, Iran shut down it's nuclear weapons program in 2003. The Bush admin's case against Iran wouldn't hold up for 5 minutes in a courtroom.

so what? that's a good thing assuming the information is accurate. how should that change our opinion concerning nuclear weapons and iran? they've apparently suspended their program - that's great news. perhaps their display of "good will" will be rewarded by the international community.

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Originally posted by Krypton Israel violated international law, therefore making them a rogue state. It does not matter how conformed Israel is to western democracy.

that's not what makes a rogue state. if that was the measure then every nation around the globe would be rogue. from wiki

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Rogue state is a term applied by some international theorists to states considered threatening to the world's peace. This means meeting certain criteria, such as being ruled by authoritarian regimes that severely restrict human rights, sponsor terrorism, and seek to proliferate weapons of mass destruction. In the last six months of the Clinton administration, the term "rogue state" was temporarily replaced with the term "state of concern," however, the Bush administration has returned to the earlier term. The U.S. government perceives the threat posed by these states as justifying its foreign policy and military initiatives, as in the case of anti-ballistic missile programs, which are held to be grounded in the concern that these states will not be deterred by the certainty of retaliation.

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Originally posted by Krypton This is alarming, but then again, there is no evidence to say Iran has a nuclear weapons program, unlike Israel where there is 100% proof of an illegal program.

it is interesting to note your asymmetrical skepticism. why is israel nuclear program "100% proof"? what evidence do you actually have? or are you just relying on information already available, the same way certain government's analyse iran's program?

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Originally posted by Krypton Oh, so they like death and destruction as a pasttime right? Come on man! Look at the economic/geopolitical of the region. Autocratic regimes, economic poverty, and the question of what to do with the failed state of Palestine. If you don't understand the mind of a jihadist, I strongly suggest you study up on why they fight. It's not just for fun, I can tell you that!

which is all israel's fault? there would be plenty of strife in the middle east without israel being there. israel just gives them a unified target currently, they would be blowing each other up in its absence. hamas & fatah for a recent example.

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Originally posted by Krypton Depending on where you stand, this is not 100% true. Israel has already destroyed the Palestineans ability to form a state.

oh, the palestinians haven't had any influence on the disintegration of the state of course! their decision to fight the 1948 annexation and the offer of a two-state solution has had no bearing on the current state of affairs at all!

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Originally posted by Krypton It's the OCCUPATION. Iran does not OCCUPY any other nation does it?

iran dont need to "occupy" countries when it has its proxy agents that do.

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Originally posted by Krypton Also guys, telling me to open my eyes, and that I'm narrow minded will only you this. . . because I am putting 100% in trying to understand why things are the way they are, so forgive me for coming to conclusions which you disagree with, but I didn't just pull all this out of my ass. There is something really wrong with the entire picture, and it certainly isn't all because of a bunch of crazy Islamists, though I won't minimalize their impact.

im not saying its all the jihadists fault. israel is as much (if not moreso) to blame.

But your one-eyed approach is full of naivete as if iran is a wonderful nation or islamic extremism is a result of the israeli state.

your insistance that the support of israel is a religious notion still hasnt been substantiated by any evidence.

i have no problems with people bashing israel, as long as i think its a fair bashing. bash israel all your want on its crimes against humanity, and its occupation of palestine. but dont blur that message with some nonsense over iran being badly treated in comparison in regards to nuclear weapons. israel has never been a threat to the region in terms of its nuclear arsenal, cant say the same for iran.

israel has nuclear weapons, they shouldn't have, but what can we do? iran doesn't have nuclear weapons, we should do everything we can to prevent them from doing so. what's the problem?

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