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-- The Truman Show is an incredibly disturbing move.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The Truman Show is an incredibly disturbing move.

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Originally posted by Nrg2Nfinit before your ninja you need to sharpen your skill ninja stars will fly

y''+3xy'+2y=0

dont piss me off or ill bust out the vibration dampening equations.....

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Originally posted by Arbiter It's true that the analogy is not especially strong in any strict sense -- it's really more of a symbolic comparison. Harris' character is by no means omnipotent, but he does exercise extraordinary power over the "world" that Truman lives in -- summoning elements like fire and lightning in different attempts to dissuade Truman's efforts to leave in a way that seems somewhat allegorical to the gods of earlier religions. He isn't omniscient, but, again he does possess extraordinary knowledge of Truman's world through the however-many cameras (I recall it struck me as far too low a figure) on the island, and the information provided by the actors on the show. In both senses, he's clearly more limited than God would be, but still comparable in an abstract sense. Benevolence is clearly a more problematic comparison, but it often appears during the movie as though he genuinely believes that his actions are in Truman's interest (even when they are pretty clearly not.) Belief in the Omni-3 God usually implies belief in some sort of objective "good" and therefore objective "benevolence" that I tend to have a problem digesting, especially in the context of the problem of evil. But I think it's fair to say, at the barest minimum, that Harris' character attempts to maintain a pretense of benevolence. And arguably, Harris' character appears more benevolent than God -- no one on Seahaven Island is stuck in abject poverty while they slowly starve to death, whereas many people under God's "care" are in the real world. As far as the difference between overseeing and manipulating, I think that there is a bit of a more fine line than you're letting on, though I concede that again in this respect the analogy is imperfect at best. Consider a hypothetical situation where a person is going to make a bad decision, but God "inspires" them to recall a memory that helps them make a better decision instead. I don't think that's outside of the realm of religious belief, but it's arguably both overseeing and manipulating. Probably not everyone who believes in a personal god holds the same beliefs about how that God affects their life, which muddies the waters even further. It's definitely another problem that the personal God envisioned by most believers wants to have an actual "relationship" with them and, ostensibly, wants them to be aware of his existence, whereas Harris' character aims to conceal his existence to Truman (until the very end as a final attempt to keep him from leaving.) Despite the significant differences, though, I do think that the scenario presented is similar in enough respects to the idea of a paternalistic personal God who "knows what's best for you" that it, at the very least, raises the question of just how far we would want a "God" to go in creating a little world just for each of us where we'd be "safe" and "happy."

What you're describing generally exemplifies the inherent contradictions within most faith systems that involve the Omni-3 description, and I certainly wouldn't claim that my interpretation of the analogy you posit is without its problems (oddly enough though, they seem to be the same problems you could offer against any person believing in an Omni-3 deity).

I do think that the symbolism of the analogy is strong in that you're absolutely right to say that while Harris is neither "all knowing" or "all powerful", his character is likely the closest human representation of those ideas we can even fathom. The idea that it does raise is the question of just how far we would like god to be involved in our lives (should we choose to believe in one) - however, this comparison is something I struggle with both in the film and in traditional religious frameworks.

Specifically the issue is of course whether or not we are entirely free (if god interferes in the affairs of man I think there is a strong case to be made that we aren't free - in which case personal responsibility and justification go right out the window), or to what degree god is an active or passive force within the world.

In the Truman Show it would seem that all freedom is removed from his life, and in that sense I worry about how far the analogy of Harris as a god can go.

None the less an interesting view of the movie. Thanks for taking the time to write it all out.

BOOOOORING

keep the posts short or you'll never get laid

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Originally posted by dj_alfi the truman show is not a good movie to watch while on acid... but if youre sober, then its a great movie.. hmm.. think im gonna watch it tonight

i was just thinking the same thing (about acid & watching it again)

You know what else is fucked up, someone missing your call the night before and telling you to call you that night, and then not answering your call.

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Originally posted by RJT Specifically the issue is of course whether or not we are entirely free (if god interferes in the affairs of man I think there is a strong case to be made that we aren't free - in which case personal responsibility and justification go right out the window), or to what degree god is an active or passive force within the world. In the Truman Show it would seem that all freedom is removed from his life, and in that sense I worry about how far the analogy of Harris as a god can go. None the less an interesting view of the movie. Thanks for taking the time to write it all out.

Yeah I mean that's definitely a problem with a lot of faith systems generally. I think that this sort of tension between an interventionist God-figure and freedom is made somewhat more transparent in the Truman Show, which is probably why I see it as being a little revealing regarding faith systems which seem to suffer from similar problems.

Even a God which was a mere designer and didn't interfere with human affairs would still have placed significant restrictions on freedom simply by virtue of the capacities and inclinations that comprise man's nature. There are many things I am not free to do because I am not physically capable of doing them, and if God designed my body then he also decided what I would be physically capable of doing and what I would not be physically capable of doing. It is also doubtless the case that there are other things that I might do that I am not able to do simply because I would never even conceive of them. In some sense I could be considered "free" to do them, but if my cognition is limited to the extent that I never would think to, then such freedom is pretty meaningless.

Of course, there are no easy answers to fundamental questions about free will, responsibility, and the role of God or gods in our lives. The movie doesn't -- and shouldn't -- try to answer them, but I do think the fact that it raises some of these issues is part of what makes it a very satisfying work of cinema, at least to me.

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Originally posted by Arbiter Even a God which was a mere designer and didn't interfere with human affairs would still have placed significant restrictions on freedom simply by virtue of the capacities and inclinations that comprise man's nature. There are many things I am not free to do because I am not physically capable of doing them, and if God designed my body then he also decided what I would be physically capable of doing and what I would not be physically capable of doing. It is also doubtless the case that there are other things that I might do that I am not able to do simply because I would never even conceive of them. In some sense I could be considered "free" to do them, but if my cognition is limited to the extent that I never would think to, then such freedom is pretty meaningless.

Have you ever read anything where the above bolded statement has been fleshed out in a more academic sense? I don't believe I've ever come across that kind of interpretation of gods intervention in the physical world, and I think I might like to use that notion for a paper I have to write in the not to distant future.

Really an interesting take on the limitations of freedom.

Heidi Schanz is yummy

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Originally posted by glass You know what else is fucked up, someone missing your call the night before and telling you to call you that night, and then not answering your call.

I was in the middle of writing two midterms, I wouldn't have answered for anyone.

Whatever Rob, you broke my heart

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Originally posted by glass Whatever Rob, you broke my heart

nah dude i totally feel you. i hate when someone acts super friendly like "oh man so excited to hang out tomorrow sorry i missed you!" and then you cant get a hold of them the next day.

or the good old "yeh i'll be back in 20 i'll call then"
1hr later i decide to call "oh shit yea uhm REALLY REALLY soon like 10 minutes?"
1hr later im like and call "DUDE just stopped on the way back to get food SORRY I DIDNT CALL i'll be back right after"


fuck you nice guy. if you're going to be a dick, do it to my face.

edit: rob, you're cool.

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Originally posted by RJT Have you ever read anything where the above bolded statement has been fleshed out in a more academic sense? I don't believe I've ever come across that kind of interpretation of gods intervention in the physical world, and I think I might like to use that notion for a paper I have to write in the not to distant future. Really an interesting take on the limitations of freedom.

Unfortunately not. I tried to find some academic work discussing the issue in the past and came up with nothing. I consider it an "original idea" of mine until someone shows me otherwise.

If you do choose to write a paper on it or anything related to it, though, I'd be more than happy to read a draft and give you some feedback or something. And if you find any useful sources related to the idea, by all means let me know about them!

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Originally posted by wizniz nah dude i totally feel you. i hate when someone acts super friendly like "oh man so excited to hang out tomorrow sorry i missed you!" and then you cant get a hold of them the next day. or the good old "yeh i'll be back in 20 i'll call then" 1hr later i decide to call "oh shit yea uhm REALLY REALLY soon like 10 minutes?" 1hr later im like and call "DUDE just stopped on the way back to get food SORRY I DIDNT CALL i'll be back right after" fuck you nice guy. if you're going to be a dick, do it to my face. edit: rob, you're cool.

Ya, I'm taking it one day at a time

Recently re-watched it as well. Great movie. Probably one of Carey's best.

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Originally posted by Arbiter Unfortunately not. I tried to find some academic work discussing the issue in the past and came up with nothing. I consider it an "original idea" of mine until someone shows me otherwise. If you do choose to write a paper on it or anything related to it, though, I'd be more than happy to read a draft and give you some feedback or something. And if you find any useful sources related to the idea, by all means let me know about them!

Will keep you posted, I definitely think it's an idea I'd like to explore a bit more fully, and it may be the focus of my term paper for the ethics of religion.

Fantastic movie.

let's not forget eternal sunshine of the spotless mind and number 23

number 23 not so much, but i totally liked eternal sunshine

always liked this movie

it's interesting that it is set in a town called Seaside, Florida, which is famous for being one of the first designed "all-american" "new urbanist" cities. (Duany-Plater-Zyberk was the firm) .


What's scary is that the ideas that firms like this have aren't really far away from the motives of the truman show itself




also you have to love the phillip glass tracks

Really strange that I never caught the title: "Disturbing move."

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Really strange that I never caught the title: "Disturbing move."

I meant to do that.

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