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-- Good bye Brett Favre
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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov God this pestilence on the NFL is finally gone. Maybe John Madden will actually be tolerable now.

Depends on how Sexy Rexy plays

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Originally posted by Shifty-1 Very emotional departure... greatest quarterback of all-time in my books. Thanks Brett.

Statements like this are just asinine. He was the most healthy quarterback of all-time, and that's it. You'd seriously take Brett Favre and his 20 interceptions a season over Joe Montana? Terry Bradshaw? Johnny Unitas? Bart Starr? Archie Manning? Peyton Manning? Hell, Tom Brady? Other than 1995, I challenge you to name a single season in which Brett Favre was the best quarterback in the league. He was a consistent third or fourth best in each season he played, but managed to outlast the Aikmans, Youngs, and Kurt Warners. Just watch - if Peyton and Brady stay healthy Favre's records (other than the consecutive starts) will be eclipsed by a wide margin.

Brett Favre is easily the most over-rated player in any sport of all-time.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Statements like this are just asinine. He was the most healthy quarterback of all-time, and that's it. You'd seriously take Brett Favre and his 20 interceptions a season over Joe Montana? Terry Bradshaw? Johnny Unitas? Bart Starr? Archie Manning? Peyton Manning? Hell, Tom Brady? Other than 1995, I challenge you to name a single season in which Brett Favre was the best quarterback in the league. He was a consistent third or fourth best in each season he played, but managed to outlast the Aikmans, Youngs, and Kurt Warners. Just watch - if Peyton and Brady stay healthy Favre's records (other than the consecutive starts) will be eclipsed by a wide margin. Brett Favre is easily the most over-rated player in any sport of all-time.

i would say that michael vick was more over-rated than favre. at least favre was a solid quarterback. vick was marginally good at quarterback, although admittedly he was a great athlete.

i love when sean salsbury would say that "only brett favre could make that throw." Yeah douche, he's bound to complete the pass once in ten tries.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Statements like this are just asinine. He was the most healthy quarterback of all-time, and that's it. You'd seriously take Brett Favre and his 20 interceptions a season over Joe Montana? Terry Bradshaw? Johnny Unitas? Bart Starr? Archie Manning? Peyton Manning? Hell, Tom Brady? Other than 1995, I challenge you to name a single season in which Brett Favre was the best quarterback in the league. He was a consistent third or fourth best in each season he played, but managed to outlast the Aikmans, Youngs, and Kurt Warners. Just watch - if Peyton and Brady stay healthy Favre's records (other than the consecutive starts) will be eclipsed by a wide margin. Brett Favre is easily the most over-rated player in any sport of all-time.

Wow.

I'm just going to leave it at "agree to disagree" with you Jeff, but I think that distilling his achievements down to "he stayed healthy" is a pretty shit argument.

Comparing him to Kurt fucking Warner?

Say hello again when you come back to the real world, the only quarterbacks you even mentioned that I'd put close to the same league as Favre are Montana and Aikman.

Though I will say that I absolutely love the wave of "Just because we have to hear about him, we're going to take immense amounts of shit about him" trend that's hit the internet this past week or so - the similarities between it and any number of discussions that take place in MD on a given day are staggering.

brett favre was one of the best to play the game. there's no doubt. kurt warner shouldn't even be used in the same sentence with favre.

great way to end his stellar career though.

we can't put favre and warner in the same category. warner is a one hit wonder and a has been. we can put kurt wurner, jeff george, rich gannon, and steve beurelein in the same category. quarterbacks with semi long careers with a couple of seasons of "very big" seasons and the rest very mediocre. that wasn't the case for brett favre. favre had his bad moments here and there, but his numbers were consistent every year.

what really is pretty good about him was not like other great quarterbacks, he had to deal with throwing to different wide receivers every couple of years. quarterback-receiver chemistry is very critical, if you think about it, favre had throw it to receivers like andre rison, antonio freeman, robert brooks, and bill schroeder during his peak years. average to good wide receivers, but not the best receivers to depend on.

also favre had to deal with a mediocre running game during the mid to late 90s. reggie cobb, edgar bennett, and dorsey levens doesn't scare defenses. at least favre had ahmen "fumble the ball because my hands are small" green during the 2000s. montana had craig, aikman had emmitt smith, bradshaw had harris, and staubach had dorsett.

when we talk about favre, we have to put him with fran takerton and dan marino. quarterbacks who had to deal with a lot of mediocrity to win football games. although takerton and marino didn't win super bowls, they did perform at high levels to get their respective teams to the position of winning games.

just my 2 cents .........

The Marino analogy seems particularly apt.

And for the record, I'm fine with people not having a high opinion of Favre - everyone is entitled to their own after all, and I understand the need for many people to attempt to provide the "equal and opposite reaction" to the amount of praise he receives (again, see MD for the musical equivalent on any given day) - unfortunately there is pretty much zero possibility of that reaction ever becoming "equal" in any way, shape, or form to the general consensus that Favre is among the best to ever have played the game.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Statements like this are just asinine. He was the most healthy quarterback of all-time, and that's it. You'd seriously take Brett Favre and his 20 interceptions a season over Joe Montana? Terry Bradshaw? Johnny Unitas? Bart Starr? Archie Manning? Peyton Manning? Hell, Tom Brady? Other than 1995, I challenge you to name a single season in which Brett Favre was the best quarterback in the league. He was a consistent third or fourth best in each season he played, but managed to outlast the Aikmans, Youngs, and Kurt Warners. Just watch - if Peyton and Brady stay healthy Favre's records (other than the consecutive starts) will be eclipsed by a wide margin. Brett Favre is easily the most over-rated player in any sport of all-time.

it's hard to say 'who's the greatest of all time' when you have so many qb's that have accomplished so much. i'll say this, brett favre is in my group of greatest qb's of all time. if i had to choose a qb to win the super bowl for me it would not be brett favre lining up under center. i would have to go with montana, bradshaw, bart starr, steve young (doesn't he have the highest qb rating over a career?) or even elway (who beat favre in the super bowl). i agree with you that the majority of brett's records will be shattered by brady and manning but you can't penalize brett for being healthy and playing in all those games.

the same type of discussion always happens when you talk about the greatest rb of all time. you have people argue about brown, sanders, payton, and smith.

And since when are records not meant to be broken?



Does the fact that Favre stole all those records from Elway, Marino, Montana, etc. mean that their careers are worthless as well?



Certainly seems to follow logically from some of the arguments given here.

i'm not going to say he's the "best", but "one of the best", because of the number of mistakes he made in the playoffs during his early years that put the packers in a bad position, most namely numerous occasions against the cowboys. the cowboys practically owned brett favre during the early 90s. the 1994-95-96 playoffs scare me. , and how about that 2002 playoffs against st louis when he threw 6 interceptions.

but yeah the best quarterbacks have their good days and bad days. too bad those were the bad days for favre.

when we talk about records, and what the players have accomplished to reach those records, we have to factor how their numbers compare to the rest of the league during that time. when unitas and takerton were racking up yards during the 60s and 70s, that was a very unique in a way, because during that time, mobile quarterbacks who threw massive yards were very hard to come by.

same goes for favre when we compare his 90s-early 2000s numbers to the early greats. of course favre's numbers are going to be greater than the past great quarterbacks, but only because the number of passing plays are double than what is is 2 decades ago.

looking at the past couple of years, i think favre's numbers are going to be the standard for a while, because quarterback stability hasn't been that great outside of brady and manning. 60,000 passing yards and 300 touchdowns are going to be very hard to eclipse these days.

Inevitably though, all anyone has to default to in order to criticize Favre fall into one of two categories:

01. Interceptions.
02. Only one a single championship.

The first I think is addressed rather nicely by the above discussion of the number of receivers he was forced to play with over the years (the Packers haven't had a "franchise" receiver since Sterling Sharpe), as well as by the shear number of attempts he made (granted this is a much weaker argument offput by other QB's with relatively similar numbers of attempts and fewer picks).

The second is just laughable at the onset. If greatness is measured in championships there are a lot of record holders out there who were clearly not great players by virtue of their inability to win a championship alone.

3 consecutive seasons as MVP alone puts him in a class with very few other players - but I'm sure those were all just flukes, right?

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Originally posted by RJT And since when are records not meant to be broken?

some are meant to be broken, some will never be broken. i doubt we will ever see a NBA player score 100 like wilt or a MLB pitcher break Cy Young's career win record. as far as career records for qb's go, they will be broken since the league has a lot more rules in place to protect qbs.

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Does the fact that Favre stole all those records from Elway, Marino, Montana, etc. mean that their careers are worthless as well?

i never said someone's career is worthless if their record gets broken. i agree with butters about comparing the players to their peers. i really can't look at any point in favre's career where he was the clear dominate qb (he might have been the best but you could make a good arguement for another player also). to me, he was consistently in the top 3 but the other two qbs switched frequently. young and aikman were up there for awhile and then elway, manning, brady, warner.


on a side note: i miss the days when you would see qb's air it out 50+ yards down field all the time. when they would throw it out of the top of the screen just like in tecmo bowl.

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Originally posted by jonze i never said someone's career is worthless if their record gets broken. i agree with butters about comparing the players to their peers. i really can't look at any point in favre's career where he was the clear dominate qb (he might have been the best but you could make a good arguement for another player also). to me, he was consistently in the top 3 but the other two qbs switched frequently. young and aikman were up there for awhile and then elway, manning, brady, warner. on a side note: i miss the days when you would see qb's air it out 50+ yards down field all the time. when they would throw it out of the top of the screen just like in tecmo bowl.

Lol, Rick that wasn't really meant to imply you had said anything like that

And exactly what you stated (that at no point in his career was he necessarily the "dominant" QB in the league, but consistently top 3) is as good a reason as I can find to praise his career.

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Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Brett Favre is easily the most over-rated player in any sport of all-time.

Nah. That title belongs to Cal Ripken Jr.

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Originally posted by verndogs Nah. That title belongs to Cal Ripken Jr.

ditto. he had 1 or 2 good seasons in the 80s and that's about it. yeah yeah mr. ironman at shortstop, but what kind of honor is that? shortstop doesn't run into much injuries anyways.

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Originally posted by verndogs Nah. That title belongs to Cal Ripken Jr.

eww....i don't know about that one either. the man hit 400+ homeruns. that's not an easy task, and in an age before SS's were doping up hitting 40-50 home runs a season. in his time he was an anomaly at SS.

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Originally posted by LeopoldStotch yeah yeah mr. ironman at shortstop, but what kind of honor is that? shortstop doesn't run into much injuries anyways.

whoa, whoa... hey now... SS and CF are the two most brutal positions.... even though I matured into a 2B as my career grew and ended... so i'm partial to saying 2B is the most demanding defensive position.... but SS is the field Commander and has a longer throw then 2B....

but anyway, WTF!?!?!? SS is demanding, end of my rant, thanks!

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Originally posted by RJT Name all the quarterbacks who are better, go on. I'd love to see the list, because there aren't very many names that are going to argue against this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_...er_achievements Sorry m8 - you can't argue numbers. *cue you posting the interception record - predictable response is predictable after all. Go on though - seriously, I'd love a good laugh. ... . . .

Granted, my list only includes QB's i've been fortunate enough to see play, so no Unitas, Starr, Bradshaw, etc... which 2 of those guys I'd put before Favre.. but anyway

1. Brady
2. Montana
3. Manning
4. Marino
5. Elway
6. Young
7. Aikman
8. Hick boy, I mean Favre

thanks for playing!


and to the Numbers... why the FUCK would I argue with Numbers??? Brady set unbelievable numbers this year, so don't sit there and think i'm going to shit on his numbers!!!

yeah what? exactly... but fuck numbers, its all about winning!

and why would I attack Favre's INT habits??? Cause he's had NUMEROUS 1 TD, 4 INT games???? so what, everyone likes to throw the rock around on Sunday like a meathead... oh wait.... yeah he's #8!

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Originally posted by King Ecnal Granted, my list only includes QB's i've been fortunate enough to see play, so no Unitas, Starr, Bradshaw, etc... which 2 of those guys I'd put before Favre.. but anyway 1. Brady 2. Montana 3. Manning 4. Marino 5. Elway 6. Young 7. Aikman 8. Hick boy, I mean Favre thanks for playing! and to the Numbers... why the FUCK would I argue with Numbers??? Brady set unbelievable numbers this year, so don't sit there and think i'm going to shit on his numbers!!! yeah what? exactly... but fuck numbers, its all about winning! and why would I attack Favre's INT habits??? Cause he's had NUMEROUS 1 TD, 4 INT games???? so what, everyone likes to throw the rock around on Sunday like a meathead... oh wait.... yeah he's #8!

all great quarterbacks have a great wide receiver(s) to throw to. if he doesn't have that privilege, putting up big numbers with average talent is even better in my books.

1. Brady - i have to say. he did put some good numbers with guys like patten, troy brown, and deion branch(a decent wide receiver in my books) before he had welker and moss.
2. Montana - before he had rice and taylor, he was putting up decent numbers with dwight clark, and who can forget that remarkable catch by dwight clark in the back of the end zone against the cowboys in the playoffs?
3. Manning - what he's doing with harrison and wayne is pretty good. i do recall manning putting up not so good numbers before there was wayne. however, these past couple of years he's been having erases those thoughts for me.
4. Marino - i do have to say he's up there for me, because he had to throw the ball to people like mark clayton and mark duper, and run an offense with NO running attack whatsoever his entire career.
5. Elway - he's up there for me too. decent wide receivers like rod smith, vance johnson, and shannon sharpe, but all those great comeback victories he performed in the 80s did it for me.
6. Young - those great years he had in the mid 90s is all he has in the books. a good mobile quarterback, but he inhertied an already powerhouse system given to him by montana. i don't really consider him one of the greats. sorry.
7. Aikman - i can't put him on the list. there are many reasons why i can't put him on the greats list, such as dallas having a very powerful defense in the early 90s, emmitt smith, novacek, irvin, and harper. everything was practically handfed to him, and all he had to do was not screw up.
8. Hick boy, I mean Favre - already been discussed.



....

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Originally posted by LeopoldStotch 4. Marino - i do have to say he's up there for me, because he had to throw the ball to people like mark clayton and mark SUPER duper, and run an offense with NO running attack whatsoever his entire career.

i corrected your post a little bit. don't forget that he completed a pass at his HOF induction ceremony.

Well if it's about winning then Joe Montana is the best QB ever. 4 Super Bowl rings. Brady only has 3. In my book, Montana is the best. Brady didn't exactly set the world on fire in the last super bowl.....

Manning is better than Favre. Marino yes. Elway yes. Aikman? Uhh no way.

Montana
Manning
Brady (great O line helped him for many years, he didn't look so hot in the face of a serious pass rush)
Elway
Marino
Favre

ok, I can admit... after Elway at #5... Aikman and Young were just thrown in to help my case... but even so.. Favre is not top 5... #6 perhaps... but thats not top 5!

end of discussion, thanks!

edited for Lance

quote:

Originally posted by RJT Inevitably though, all anyone has to default to in order to criticize Favre fall into one of two categories: 01. Interceptions. 02. Only one a single championship.

03. QB rating of 77 over the last ten seasons of his career.

This article pretty much sums up my opinion of Favre:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/colum...ht&lid=tab5pos1

quote:

Overhyped: Favre didn't deliver in second half of career By Sal Paolantonio ESPN.com Brett Favre In the playoffs, Brett Favre was 3-5 with 14 touchdown passes and 16 interceptions. We interrupt the continued deification of Brett Favre -- a first-ballot Hall of Famer and the most durable player in NFL history -- with the following reality check. Yes, Favre played long enough to throw the most touchdown passes and collect the most wins by an NFL quarterback. But let's examine the second half of No. 4's career. The truth is, Favre did little over the past decade to earn the gushing praise heaped upon him by our fawning brethren in the media. In his 17 seasons, Brett Favre set numerous NFL records, including most yards passing (61,655) and most touchdowns (442). But do those numbers, combined with Favre's three MVP awards and one Super Bowl victory, put him among the top 10 quarterbacks of all time? After beating the San Francisco 49ers in the 1997 NFC Championship Game, Favre won just three of his last 10 playoff games. Eli Manning had more postseason wins in a 29-day span this past season than Favre had in his last decade with the Green Bay Packers. Yes, Favre won a Super Bowl -- 11 years ago! But as his career arc spiraled downward, the blind adulation only got worse. Favre's passer rating in his last 12 postseason games was a pedestrian 77.8. In his last five wild-card games, he went 2-3 with more interceptions (nine) than touchdown passes (seven). In his last three divisional playoff games, he went 1-2 with seven TDs and seven interceptions. That's a 3-5 record with 14 touchdown passes and 16 picks. In two of his last four postseason appearances, Favre threw two of the most unthinkable playoff interceptions in NFL history, both in overtime -- to Brian Dawkins of the Philadelphia Eagles in 2003 and to Corey Webster of the New York Giants in January. In fact, Favre is the only quarterback in NFL history to throw overtime interceptions in two playoff games. In his last nine playoff games, Favre threw 18 interceptions. Bart Starr Brett Favre's career playoff record was 12-10. Fellow Packer star quarterback Bart Starr, above, was 9-1. In the first 81 years of the Green Bay franchise, the most hallowed in all of pro football, the Packers were 13-0 at home in the postseason. But since 2002, the Packers have gone 2-3 in playoff games at Lambeau Field, with Favre losing to three not-quite Hall of Fame quarterbacks: Michael Vick, Daunte Culpepper and Manning. If Manning had a decade like that, he'd be run out of New York. If Philip Rivers kept chucking ridiculous overtime interceptions in the postseason, he would be branded a first-round bust. If Drew Brees came up short in three out of five home playoff games, he'd be mocked. But no matter how many dumb passes he threw and how many playoff games he lost, Favre remains immune to criticism. Favre isn't even the greatest quarterback in the history of the Packers. It's not even close. Bart Starr won five NFL championships -- four more than Favre -- and retired as the NFL's most accurate passer. Oh, you say Starr was surrounded by a Hall of Fame roster with a legendary coach. But Starr still is the NFL record holder with a 104.8 career playoff passer rating, nearly 20 points higher than Favre's. That wasn't Vince Lombardi or Ray Nitschke throwing those passes for Starr, whose career postseason passer rating, by the way, is 38 points higher than Johnny Unitas'. Favre's career playoff record was 12-10. Starr's was 9-1 -- without the benefit of wild-card games. Favre threw 28 interceptions in 22 playoff games. Starr threw three in 10. Think about that -- just three picks in 213 postseason attempts. But Bart Starr gets the Ringo Starr treatment -- underappreciated and overlooked. Favre gets put on a pedestal. Yes, he had a Pro Bowl season in 2007 with the youngest roster in the NFL. But his final moment on Lambeau Field was a wildly errant pass that turned into the NFC title for the Giants. Indeed, a decade after his last moments of glory, the football hype machine continues to paint Favre as a hallowed icon of Americana, a symbol of all that is right with sports, a Wild West gun-slinging good ol' boy. There's Brett on the farm! There's Brett with his family! There's Brett on the cover of Sports Illustrated! There's Brett throwing another overtime interception! Favre was among the best in the game, once upon a time. Those days are long gone. Only the idolatry remains. This is adapted from the best-selling book "The Paolantonio Report: The Most Overrated and Underrated Players, Teams, Coaches and Moments in NFL History" by Sal Paolantonio with Reuben Frank, which is available in local bookstores and at Amazon.com.

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