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-- Turmoil in Tibet
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quote:

Originally posted by Lira Do you know anything at all about Buddhism?

These kind of general one liners claiming to have profound deep knowledge of something when you yourself have no solution but only opinion about situation pisses me most.

quote:

Originally posted by zen_zo These kind of general one liners claiming to have profound deep knowledge of something when you yourself have no solution but only opinion about situation pisses me most.

Well, I guess I've just had the answer I was looking for, never mind.

quote:

Originally posted by jerZ07002 aren't you a ron paul supporter? i would expect a ron paul supporter to be more of a pacifist than you display. i'm sure he would agree that tibet is an internal chinese problem. when people get too emotional or have too strong an opinion in either direction, they lose that pacifism.

How am I a Ron Paul supporter when he has pulled out of the presidential race? How is my opposition to foreign invasions by any country NOT pacifist? Opposition to the initiation of unjustified force is pacifist, so whatever you're trying to get at, I wouldn't know. My position is rational and simple. Unprovoked foreign occupation initiated by any country is an act of aggression and should ALWAYS be opposed. That is a central belief of a pacifist.

The fact is, Tibet was an independant country before it was invaded in 1951. Unfortunately, Tibet was forced to surrender its independence to China and signed the Seventeen Point Agreement. Fine. Ok. Tibetans have mostly accepted this. Unfortunately, Tibet's culture has been oppressed, suppressed, and depressed by the Chinese government. This is why they have protested. Tibetans want more autonomy. They want the freedom to practice their Buddhist faith and follow the Dalai Lama as their spiritual leader. Tibetans have no allegiance to Beijing, though they accept Beijing's political authority because we all know what would happen otherwise.

Like the Dalai Lama, I am not championing Tibetan independence. I am championing greater autonomy for Tibet like the freedom to practice their religion, and to foster their Tibetan culture. I am skeptical whether China will allow any allegiance to any leader other than Beijing, even if that leader were simply spiritual.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton My position is rational

That's how you know that you are not a Ron Paul supporter.

And Jer does have a point - Ron Paul is strictly non-interventionist and would never advocate taking a position in China's internal affairs. And whether Tibet has a history of independence (albeit over 50 years ago) or not, the international norm is that China's territory includes Tibet, and thus the policy of non-interference would apply (according to Paul).

Since that is obviously not your position, I encourage you to check out the following link:

http://www.responsibilitytoprotect.org

quote:

Originally posted by Lira Well, I guess I've just had the answer I was looking for, never mind.

Who made you a mod anyways?

You do a horrible job in leading this community.. direction... direct people to think beyond the situation and to the solution. Thats when debating comes in.

Everyone knows what the situation is.. people should discuss the posssible solution to the situation. And not just quote sources and discuss what the situation is all the time.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton How am I a Ron Paul supporter when he has pulled out of the presidential race? How is my opposition to foreign invasions by any country NOT pacifist? Opposition to the initiation of unjustified force is pacifist, so whatever you're trying to get at, I wouldn't know. My position is rational and simple. Unprovoked foreign occupation initiated by any country is an act of aggression and should ALWAYS be opposed. That is a central belief of a pacifist. The fact is, Tibet was an independant country before it was invaded in 1951. Unfortunately, Tibet was forced to surrender its independence to China and signed the Seventeen Point Agreement. Fine. Ok. Tibetans have mostly accepted this. Unfortunately, Tibet's culture has been oppressed, suppressed, and depressed by the Chinese government. This is why they have protested. Tibetans want more autonomy. They want the freedom to practice their Buddhist faith and follow the Dalai Lama as their spiritual leader. Tibetans have no allegiance to Beijing, though they accept Beijing's political authority because we all know what would happen otherwise. Like the Dalai Lama, I am not championing Tibetan independence. I am championing greater autonomy for Tibet like the freedom to practice their religion, and to foster their Tibetan culture. I am skeptical whether China will allow any allegiance to any leader other than Beijing, even if that leader were simply spiritual.

you are correct as to what it means to be a pacifist; i could have been clearer on what i meant though. i was going to give a lengthy response, but Lebezniatnikov did just fine.

i would also like to highlight that the Dalai Lama does not want independence, rather autonomy. That suggests he recognizes that china has a claim to the land.


See second page of article:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/ne...icle3562971.ece

quote:

Originally posted by zen_zo Who made you a mod anyways? You do a horrible job in leading this community.. direction... direct people to think beyond the situation and to the solution. Thats when debating comes in.

That's because I'm not supposed to "lead" anyone. Here, let's see what people think a moderator is:
moderator (noun)

1. (US USUALLY mediator) FORMAL someone who tries to help other people come to an agreement:
   An independent moderator should be appointed to oversee the negotiations.
   
   
2. US someone who makes certain that a formal discussion happens without problems and follows the rules:
   He challenged the president to a series of TV debates. Just the two of them, with no moderator.
   
   
3. UK SPECIALIZED someone who makes certain that all the people marking an exam use the same standards:
   The final marks awarded for coursework will depend upon the moderator.
   
   

1. one who arbitrates : mediator
   
   
2. one who presides over an assembly, meeting, or discussion: as (a) the presiding officer of a Presbyterian governing body (b) the nonpartisan presiding officer of a town meeting (c) the chairman of a discussion group
   
   
3. a substance (as graphite) used for slowing neutrons in a nuclear reactor
   
   

quote:

Originally posted by zen_zo Who made you a mod anyways? You do a horrible job in leading this community.. direction... direct people to think beyond the situation and to the solution. Thats when debating comes in. Everyone knows what the situation is.. people should discuss the posssible solution to the situation. And not just quote sources and discuss what the situation is all the time.

*looks at registration date*



You've been here what, three days? I haven't seen you put forth a single solution, so where does this criticism come from? You've obviously not observed this sub-forum for very long, because if you had, you would know that Lira does a fine job as a mod (and shows a lot of restraint not banning trolls like you). A mod's role is to facilitate an environment conducive to open and intellectual debate. The only people that hurt that environment are the ones contributing nothing substantial to conversations and lobbing ad hominems at respected members (I'm talking about you here).

Furthermore, you should understand that solutions to problems that aren't clearly defined are no good. People pose solutions to problems on this sub-forum all the time, but it should be no surprise that we aren't "led" to some sort of unanimous agreement on them. Different perspectives lead to different interpretations of events, which lead to different conceptions of solutions. In other words, diversity within the community ensures that there will always be lively debate centered around disagreement - Lira's job is to make sure that disagreement remains civil.

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov *looks at registration date* You've been here what, three days? I haven't seen you put forth a single solution, so where does this criticism come from? You've obviously not observed this sub-forum for very long, because if you had, you would know that Lira does a fine job as a mod (and shows a lot of restraint not banning trolls like you). A mod's role is to facilitate an environment conducive to open and intellectual debate. The only people that hurt that environment are the ones contributing nothing substantial to conversations and lobbing ad hominems at respected members (I'm talking about you here). Furthermore, you should understand that solutions to problems that aren't clearly defined are no good. People pose solutions to problems on this sub-forum all the time, but it should be no surprise that we aren't "led" to some sort of unanimous agreement on them. Different perspectives lead to different interpretations of events, which lead to different conceptions of solutions. In other words, diversity within the community ensures that there will always be lively debate centered around disagreement - Lira's job is to make sure that disagreement remains civil.

Now let's all gather round the camp fire and sing kumbya...

quote:

Originally posted by TranceGiant Not wanting to sound anti-zionist, but it's becoming obvious those Israelis are adopting the same genocidial procedures they themselves had to suffer from by the Nazis. I wholeheartedly support armed Palestinian struggle against Israeli occupation and call for the international community to wake up and finally stop this ongoing massacre. Again, nothing against the Israelis, some of my best freinds have Israeli restaurants.

agree, people need to �wake up� and look at things more objectively.

tathi, you did get my irony alluding to these very repetitive phrases of Israel "critics", didn't you? The intelligent reader didn't need this reversion, but thanks anyway for clarifying.

awesome backtrack irony doesnt apply to zionists remember? they are gods people, the rules the rest of the world abide by dont apply to them.

bad china bad

This really doesn't look photochopped and I would past the Chinese to pull this shit either.

quote:

Originally posted by pmoisse This really doesn't look photochopped and I would past the Chinese to pull this shit either.

Sources at British Spy Agency Confirm Tibetan Claims of Staged Violence


LONDON�Britain's GCHQ, the government communications agency that electronically monitors half the world from space, has confirmed the claim by the Dalai Lama that agents of the Chinese People's Liberation Army, the PLA, posing as monks, triggered the riots that have left hundreds of Tibetans dead or injured.


source:
http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-3-27/68095.html

quote:

Swedish IOC member Gunilla Lindberg: ''I think it is very sad. I get angry,'' Lindberg said. ''Using the torch this way is almost a crime. This is the property of the IOC, it is not a Chinese torch.''

quote:

Originally posted by Trancer-X Sources at British Spy Agency Confirm Tibetan Claims of Staged Violence LONDON�Britain's GCHQ, the government communications agency that electronically monitors half the world from space, has confirmed the claim by the Dalai Lama that agents of the Chinese People's Liberation Army, the PLA, posing as monks, triggered the riots that have left hundreds of Tibetans dead or injured. source: http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-3-27/68095.html

OMFG ... this is the biggest bullshit I've read in the longest time. Yeah sure, Chinese have intentionally decided to ruin the Olympic games legacy for themselves ... oh yeah!

After my initial glipse of this conflict, and its consequences and the results, I have changed my viewpoint on the situation.

Ask yourself these questions, based on common sense and logic:

Who did most of the rioting and looting around Lhasa, who were its main participants and victims, and who started the riots? Who violated the peace and quiet, who attacked the mosques, the ethnic Chinese shops, other minorities?

Who had the most to gain and benefit from these riots and reprisals by Chinese, and what was the ultimate goal? Also, are these goals realistic at all? How realistic is it that China will be kind and generous enough to grant Tibet independence for monks' peace loving actions?

Also, what the hell do these riots have anything to do with Olympics in Beijing? Why the hell are Tibetan politics get crossed over with games? Isn't it a normal procedure to avoid making political statements and actions when carrying out such a massive sports event to promote unity and peace?

Also, in any other country, when hundreds of people start torching stores, looting, beating people up, causing unrest and using violence - would government and police just sit and do nothing?

I shall skip my answers to these and many other questions and I conclude that these Tibetan riots were part of a well planned and organized event to tarnish China, since the predictable Chinese response was expected (much worse that it did, actually), and its obvious that this would not make the Tibetan situation any better. Tibet is demanding too much - or pardon me, those on BEHALF of Tibet, those forces who infiltrated Tibetans and encouraged them to start riots - they are dumbasses for attempting to use violence to achieve something that even Hong Kong doesnt have. Tibet wasted a perfect opportunity to instead play a political game to wrestle some more autonomy for itself, and instead cashed in on the riots to set itself many steps back in progressing towards independence and greater autonomy. They could have played a political game and wrestled some freedoms in return for broad autonomy, because they had Chinese at their mercy for keeping the Games clean. Instead Tibet tried to stab a huge part of the pie and tried to leapfrog and missed, instead of trying to take it a step at a time.

Chinese response was at first surprisingly slow (perhaps to avoid large scale use of force and resulting bloodshed) and later quite brutal, resulting in numerous deaths of Tibetans, but the rioters are the ones who are to blame. They should've known well in advance what was coming, that ordinary Tibetans were going to die and suffer based on their idiocy and stupidity. They knew they couldn't beat Chinese troops and decided anyway to screw themselves more for a few hours of looting, smashing and beating. Party's over. Realistically even at the best shot Tibetans never had a chance of winning anything. But now they have even more animosity and anger from 1 billion Chinese.

Whats even worse is that Tibetan buddhists have damaged their own reputation by showing how truly peaceful and loving they are, by displaying strong animosity not only against ethnic Chinese, BUT AGAINST MUSLIM MINORITY. Thats right.

We all know how brutal Chinese government is, how evil their regime is. But others shouldn't fall down to their levels as well and let the bloodthirsty beast do what is expected in such a situation. Its just very stupid.

I would like to add that I am not a hypocrite. I support integrity of ALL countries based on international law, including keeping these regions from achieving independence:

Quebec from Canada
Catalonia / Basques from Spain
Chechnya from Russia
Kosovo from Serbia
Tibet from China
Abkhazia from Georgia
Scotland from UK

and so on and on and on. If we allow any separatist violence to flourish, there will be many independence prone movements all over the world causing all kinds of damage and havoc. I know history is not just and politics have placed borders not accurately, but these issues will never be resolved so there's no need to stirr shit up over and over again. Instead of FREE TIBET it should be MORE RIGHTS TO TIBETANS and similar. Tibetans demand and deserve rights, equality, proper humane treatment. But not independence. Its time the world stays consistent on the issue of separatist / independence movements. Its for the sake of the greater peace, stability and prosperity. Enough violence as it is all over the world - separatist movements aren't helping.

Jesus Christ!
It's an army of flying Chinese!
(Tibet is screwed)

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium OMFG ... this is the biggest bullshit I've read in the longest time. Yeah sure, Chinese have intentionally decided to ruin the Olympic games legacy for themselves ... oh yeah!

Dude.

They're buddhist monks.

Just think about that for a second.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium I would like to add that I am not a hypocrite.

Everyone is a hypocrite.

The only difference? Some of us are in denial, and some of us realize it.

quote:

Originally posted by DJ Shibby Dude. They're buddhist monks. Just think about that for a second.

OK, I thought about it ... once ... twice ... and?

In the initial stages of that upheaval, it was the Tibetans who displayed strong animosity towards other ethnic groups. They weren't quite peaceful as I thought before. I think personally that they should have followed in Ghandi's footsteps and tried some of that ol' peaceful non-compliance or other peaceful protests.

As I said, they were demanding too much at the wrong place and at the wrong time. Not gonna happen.

Plus, just because they're Buddhist monks - wow, does that mean they are better than the rest of people? Everyone is prone to mistakes, violence, outbreaks of anger and animousity, jealousy, etc. Politics are shit, and it gets the best of us all.

I think that Tibet had all the chances on its side to improve its situation for its great Buddhist people, and they blew it. They concentrated on ruining Chinese Olympic legacy instead of attaining political progress in gaining more rights, autonomy and so forth in return for not spoiling the Games. However, that seemed to be way too boring and way too peaceful.

when China invaded Tibet there was a liberation force that fought for independence, (forgot the name, i saw the doco years ago so my memory is shakey) and they were extremely fierce and feared by Chinese, it was out of respect for the Dalai Lama that they threw down their weapons. The Dalai Llama has preached the middle way and the Chinese have milked him for it for decades, their government cannot empathise with the peacefulness of Buddhism, they see only opportunity and weakness not peace and compassion. If a Tibetan is found in possession of a Tibetan flag in Tibet he is put in jail, their entire culture is being slowly but deliberately diluted and destroyed.

Now their is an entire generation Tibetans who have never seen Tibet who are fucking angry and are pretty much waiting for the Lama to die out of their respect and reverence towards him before the real shit hits the fan where they rise up out of the refugee camps in India and fight against this brutal and oppressive regime using the most effective method available to those otherwise powerless without it - conventional terrorism.

quote:

Originally posted by tathi when China invaded Tibet there was a liberation force that fought for independence, (forgot the name, i saw the doco years ago so my memory is shakey) and they were extremely fierce and feared by Chinese, it was out of respect for the Dalai Lama that they threw down their weapons. The Dalai Llama has preached the middle way and the Chinese have milked him for it for decades, their government cannot empathise with the peacefulness of Buddhism, they see only opportunity and weakness not peace and compassion. If a Tibetan is found in possession of a Tibetan flag in Tibet he is put in jail, their entire culture is being slowly but deliberately diluted and destroyed. Now their is an entire generation Tibetans who have never seen Tibet who are fucking angry and are pretty much waiting for the Lama to die out of their respect and reverence towards him before the real shit hits the fan where they rise up out of the refugee camps in India and fight against this brutal and oppressive regime using the most effective method available to those otherwise powerless without it - conventional terrorism.

well stated...

quote:

Originally posted by tathi when China invaded Tibet there was a liberation force that fought for independence, (forgot the name, i saw the doco years ago so my memory is shakey) and they were extremely fierce and feared by Chinese, it was out of respect for the Dalai Lama that they threw down their weapons. The Dalai Llama has preached the middle way and the Chinese have milked him for it for decades, their government cannot empathise with the peacefulness of Buddhism, they see only opportunity and weakness not peace and compassion. If a Tibetan is found in possession of a Tibetan flag in Tibet he is put in jail, their entire culture is being slowly but deliberately diluted and destroyed. Now their is an entire generation Tibetans who have never seen Tibet who are fucking angry and are pretty much waiting for the Lama to die out of their respect and reverence towards him before the real shit hits the fan where they rise up out of the refugee camps in India and fight against this brutal and oppressive regime using the most effective method available to those otherwise powerless without it - conventional terrorism.

Yes, indeed, Chinese forces are ... well, brutal. The "shit hits the fan" can only apply to Tibetans themselves - I doubt Chinese will even flinch, because they have gazillion troops available to flatten Tibet in any event. So I'd say Tibet needs to concentrate on other methods to achieve greater autonomy and rights. Showing their anger will not deter the Chinese ... it will only enrage them. Which can be a dangerous thing. Lets face it - this whole Tibetan fiasco has been a terrible disappointment to both Chinese and Tibetans, and the only ones who are happy are the players on the sidelines who got what they wanted (which is of little benefit for either China or Tibet).

Its fun and all to protest against Chinese oppression of Tibet, but the whole story has been grossly misinterpreted and taken the wrong way. People are too naive to believe that by trying to ruin China's image the giant will bulge. People need to get a brain and start thinking first.


So why is Tibet so important to China? Well ... the answer is simple. Its a sort of a buffer zone between China and India, and even maybe Pakistan. China would rather not get India's influence to close to its Chinese heartland, and we all well know the China-India border war in 1950s/1960s ... and Tibet obviously was going to fall to either India or China.

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