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-- socialized medicine
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your favourite gem?

The Yogo sapphire.

what colour?

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Originally posted by neo geo Once I'm finished with my degree here in the states I'm going to be moving to Florence, Italy for gemology school. If I'm lucky and can find a job in Italy, or anywhere else in Europe, then I'm going to stay. Europe gets more vacation time, free medical care, and a society that is not totally fucking nuts like ours. How do you become a citizen or be allowed to stay and work in another country. I would love to live in Siena for a while. I love that city.

well first you must get permanent residency. you will going over on a student visa which doesnt allow for permanent residency. 6 months after school ends you must leave the country. there are ways to skirt around it and apply for permanent residency before your student visa runs out though.

ps: health care is not free there.

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Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN yes it works. but its expensive for the state and often the government don't do enough to maintain the system (or so some argue).

Its probably due for some kind of review sooner than later as at the moment it's suffering from a number of maladies like staffing shortages and nibbling away at the fringe service areas which can be important.
But, if you've got no private health cover, then while it may be slow (and by slow I mean snails pace!) it covers most things. I've always had private health cover, mostly for choice of doctor, private hospital and being bumped up the list, after my knee surgeries a few years ago it paid for itself a few times over. Plus elective surgery is much easier on the wallet.

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its certainly way fucking better than the system in the US that's for sure.

The price of basic pharmaceuticals is ridiculous, that and a lot of yanks seem to be balling along on any number of prescriptions they've been given. Just an observation while I was there that most of them tend to be completely unnecessary as well.

I am personally a free market kind of guy. I am totally against socialized medicine because I just don't think it will work, but I think what we have now is almost worse.

In my view we should treat health care the same way we treat car insurance. We buy our own plans and let the free market decide the cost. If the companies had to compete then they would compete off cost and services they would allow. And I think you would see a dramatic change.

As the system is now, once a corporation is locked into one provider, it is too costly to switch so the provider companies don't have to compete and they can tell doctors what kind of care to provide. Competition has worked in other industries, and with a lot more competition and a little more government oversight, I still see a free market solution to this.

We will all end up paying for it in the end, but I just feel that it shouldn't be the burden of the tax payers, but the individual for their own health care.

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Originally posted by neo geo Once I'm finished with my degree here in the states I'm going to be moving to Florence, Italy for gemology school. If I'm lucky and can find a job in Italy, or anywhere else in Europe, then I'm going to stay. Europe gets more vacation time, free medical care, and a society that is not totally fucking nuts like ours. How do you become a citizen or be allowed to stay and work in another country. I would love to live in Siena for a while. I love that city.

I don't think it is fair to characterize socialized health care as free. The people who pay taxes pay for it. Just because it is taken out of your pay before you see it, doesn't mean the money wasn't there in the first place.

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Originally posted by jdat I have a 1300 eur/month medication bill ...

1300 euro per MONTH?

What, you got teh AIDS or something?

Yep, you've got teh AIDS.

Organ transplant/process of one.

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Originally posted by neo geo Once I'm finished with my degree here in the states I'm going to be moving to Florence, Italy for gemology school. If I'm lucky and can find a job in Italy, or anywhere else in Europe, then I'm going to stay. Europe gets more vacation time, free medical care, and a society that is not totally fucking nuts like ours. How do you become a citizen or be allowed to stay and work in another country. I would love to live in Siena for a while. I love that city.

Italy is a bit fucked up atm

i think tonite we gonna assist to the return of berlusconi

should we laugh or ....cry?

this situation is just insane seems like

In Canada, we have such lax immigration policies and right of dual citizenship, we get so many new "Convenience Canadians" so they can get free medicare when they can't get it in their own country...

...and I pay their bill as a taxpayer.

So US should keep it as it is, and the PEOPLE should simply get responsible and BUY the health insurance on their own, even at a grand or two a year. Why? Because as Canadians we end up paying that much into our taxes anyways, it's just taken off our paycheck.

My favorite gem color is blue. Yeah I know socialized medicine if not free, but it has to be better than what the U.S. has. It's not just that, there are many other things that have me ready to move to another country. Guess I will just have to see where life takes me.

Think about it, the health care system in the US is run by businesses that make money by not paying for your treatment, how can you possibly expect to receive the best care when that is the case?

That being said, I think in a country as wealthy as the United States, at the very least they could establish a system for a large portion of the people, and the wealthier families (IE: income of 80k a year or greater) could still seek out private health care for more timely service.

Sure the system here in Canada sucks money, but it didn't always, it used to pay for itself. The handling of it has gone down the pooper, and I agree with the guy that mentioned the thing about immigrants coming here long enough for the health care then going back to their country, it's why Canada should put a cap on immigration at a yearly level and start encouraging Canadians to have more babies instead of the easy road out which is allowing as many people in as possible in order to grow our population.

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Originally posted by Alex (IE: income of 80k a year or greater)

while 80k may be a lot for a lot of places around the world, it sure as hell just barely gets you able to afford a house in california or NYC/NYC Metro area or SF. most people that live in places like oklahoma or some middle of nowhere place, dont make even 40k a year. they make closer to 25k/yr, but their house payment is freaking $6-700/month! thats how much i pay to rent a room in a house! im sure its similar in places like montreal and toronto. i know for a fact toronto has similar prices for living downtown as california.

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Originally posted by Abercrombie In Canada, we have such lax immigration policies and right of dual citizenship, we get so many new "Convenience Canadians" so they can get free medicare when they can't get it in their own country... ...and I pay their bill as a taxpayer. So US should keep it as it is, and the PEOPLE should simply get responsible and BUY the health insurance on their own, even at a grand or two a year. Why? Because as Canadians we end up paying that much into our taxes anyways, it's just taken off our paycheck.

damn aj. youre really short-sighted if you think its only a grand or two a year. at one of my old jobs i paid $211USD per month for healthcare for a single white male. add in a spouse and then a kid and youre well over 4k.

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Originally posted by gehzumteufel damn aj. youre really short-sighted if you think its only a grand or two a year. at one of my old jobs i paid $211USD per month for healthcare for a single white male. add in a spouse and then a kid and youre well over 4k.

That's cuz AIDS costs you more than your boner.

JK, seriously.... ok I see it's a little higher than I thought... but I spoke with my couterparts who do my job states-side, and they have healthcare as part of their package and say it's as good as ours. I guess you have to have to work for a large company to have that as part of the employment deal, no?

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Originally posted by Abercrombie That's cuz AIDS costs you more than your boner. JK, seriously.... ok I see it's a little higher than I thought... but I spoke with my couterparts who do my job states-side, and they have healthcare as part of their package and say it's as good as ours. I guess you have to have to work for a large company to have that as part of the employment deal, no?

most office jobs offer what we call "benefits" aka health care.

and to be fair, that price is a little high. my last company i paid i think $110/month. and remember, here in the states we have a few different types of plans. we have HMO (kaiser), POS (similar to PPO), and PPO plans. they all have their pro's and con's. HMO is the worst imho. the HMO works in basically the same way in which socialized health care does. you have your family doc that you see and they take care of referrals. the only thing that they dont refer you for is optical stuff. otherwise its all referral based. POS and PPO are mostly the same, but they just have slightly different coverages. they work very different than HMOs. you can go to any doctor, anytime as long as they are in the network. you CAN go to out of network doctors, but you pay out of pocket for a good amount then.

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Originally posted by gehzumteufel most office jobs offer what we call "benefits" aka health care. and to be fair, that price is a little high. my last company i paid i think $110/month. and remember, here in the states we have a few different types of plans. we have HMO (kaiser), POS (similar to PPO), and PPO plans. they all have their pro's and con's. HMO is the worst imho. the HMO works in basically the same way in which socialized health care does. you have your family doc that you see and they take care of referrals. the only thing that they dont refer you for is optical stuff. otherwise its all referral based. POS and PPO are mostly the same, but they just have slightly different coverages. they work very different than HMOs. you can go to any doctor, anytime as long as they are in the network. you CAN go to out of network doctors, but you pay out of pocket for a good amount then.

tru nuf... here healthcare covers the bare necessities, but even here, I pay for extra healthcare through work under my benefits plan with flex dollars that I can allocate for extra life insurance, and prescriptions and extra dental work. My 4 porcelain veneers (to fix my old David Letterman teeth) cost $2800 and paid for by my flex dollars over 2 years, so no out-of pocket expense for me. If I worked in the US, I'd still go with the best plan... even at group rates, why not.

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Originally posted by Abercrombie tru nuf... here healthcare covers the bare necessities, but even here, I pay for extra healthcare through work under my benefits plan with flex dollars that I can allocate for extra life insurance, and prescriptions and extra dental work. My 4 porcelain veneers (to fix my old David Letterman teeth) cost $2800 and paid for by my flex dollars over 2 years, so no out-of pocket expense for me. If I worked in the US, I'd still go with the best plan... even at group rates, why not.

well the thing is, the company chooses who they partner with and what level of coverage you get. you can purchase secondary coverage outside of that, but you dont choose what you get really. i prefer POS and PPO plans. POS is usually cheaper than PPO with very similar coverages and all. and we have the "flex dollars" account but its called a Flexible Spending Account. and its use it or lose it each year.

I'm not going to say that 100-200 bucks a month is "cheap," but I wonder how that compares to other monthly expenses; food, car payments, car insurance, rent/mortgage, etc. Personally I think health insurance is still a "bargain" when compared to many of the others as without good health everything else is pointless. It's understandable, but people seem much more comfortable pumping their money into something tangible than into something that only really shows itself for the most part when they're in need (sick, injured). I think it's a shame though, because people severely devalue the price and importance of good health while over-prioritizing and over-spending in areas that are comparatively trivial.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono I'm not going to say that 100-200 bucks a month is "cheap," but I wonder how that compares to other monthly expenses; food, car payments, car insurance, rent/mortgage, etc. Personally I think health insurance is still a "bargain" when compared to many of the others as without good health everything else is pointless. It's understandable, but people seem much more comfortable pumping their money into something tangible than into something that only really shows itself for the most part when they're in need (sick, injured). I think it's a shame though, because people severely devalue the price and importance of good health while over-prioritizing and over-spending in areas that are comparatively trivial.

well id consider $100usd/month cheap considering how quickly health care costs can rack up. i dont disagree that its better to have it than not but on the same token, why should we pay for some bum to have health care? they choose to be there. and then not to mention a lot of the others that get health care that shouldn't!

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Originally posted by gehzumteufel well id consider $100usd/month cheap considering how quickly health care costs can rack up. i dont disagree that its better to have it than not but on the same token, why should we pay for some bum to have health care? they choose to be there. and then not to mention a lot of the others that get health care that shouldn't!

I agree with you. However, I do think that everyone should have insurance via the government up until 18. There are some parents out there that for some reason or another aren't (or won't) able to provide insurance for their children and it shouldn't be the children who suffer because of their parents. Once you turn 18 you're officially an adult and as one, it's up to you to insure yourself (There could be extensions for college students or for other factors). Now, I don't think the uninsured should just be denied care, so perhaps come tax time you can either prove you have your own insurance, prove you have the means to cover yourself medically, or be forced (via taxes) to pay into some sort of catastrophic socialized health insurance program.

The thing I absolutely don't want though is a two-tiered system when it comes to hospitals and doctors (fully government vs. fully private). There is just too huge of a difference in the quality of care as can be seen with VA hospitals vs. other hospitals in the US.

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Originally posted by Abercrombie That's cuz AIDS costs you more than your boner. JK, seriously.... ok I see it's a little higher than I thought... but I spoke with my couterparts who do my job states-side, and they have healthcare as part of their package and say it's as good as ours. I guess you have to have to work for a large company to have that as part of the employment deal, no?

Yeah, and when you look at the cost of good health insurance in the US you have to look at the total cost. Right now I pay about $100 a month out of my pocket for insurance, but my employer is picking up the rest of the tab which is another $850 a month. So if I was self employed and was looking for the same level of coverage I would be paying at least $950 a month. But really you would pay a lot more than that because my employer has a group health plan and gets a discount from the insurance company that you wouldn't get if you were self employed and looking to get your own coverage. Another problem is if you have any pre-existing conditions. I could have terminal cancer and they have to insure me because their contract with my employer says they will insure all employees and no limits on pre-existing conditions. Try to get insurance if you are an individual with a serious medical condition that is expensive to treat. If you can even find coverage the insurance company will exclude that pre-existing condition and won't pay for anything even remotely associated with that condition.

Yes the health care system in the US is goatfucked but I doubt socialized medicine is the answer either.

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Originally posted by NeoPhono I agree with you. However, I do think that everyone should have insurance via the government up until 18. There are some parents out there that for some reason or another aren't (or won't) able to provide insurance for their children and it shouldn't be the children who suffer because of their parents. Once you turn 18 you're officially an adult and as one, it's up to you to insure yourself (There could be extensions for college students or for other factors). Now, I don't think the uninsured should just be denied care, so perhaps come tax time you can either prove you have your own insurance, prove you have the means to cover yourself medically, or be forced (via taxes) to pay into some sort of catastrophic socialized health insurance program. The thing I absolutely don't want though is a two-tiered system when it comes to hospitals and doctors (fully government vs. fully private). There is just too huge of a difference in the quality of care as can be seen with VA hospitals vs. other hospitals in the US.

why not a two-tiered system? im sure it could work because the govt/our taxes wont be paying for cancer treatments, or anything serious in the way i would have it done. it would be all the gay ass shit that people get sick with every day, the small bullshit fractures that happen, muscle pulls, you know. the shit that doesnt need some doctor that specializes in things and keeps costs down and manageable. then the private health care would cover the rest. thats a smart alternative imho. obviously its an unrefined idea, but from a more neutral perspective it seems a lot better than one extreme or the other.

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Originally posted by XaNaX Yeah, and when you look at the cost of good health insurance in the US you have to look at the total cost. Right now I pay about $100 a month out of my pocket for insurance, but my employer is picking up the rest of the tab which is another $850 a month. So if I was self employed and was looking for the same level of coverage I would be paying at least $950 a month. But really you would pay a lot more than that because my employer has a group health plan and gets a discount from the insurance company that you wouldn't get if you were self employed and looking to get your own coverage. Another problem is if you have any pre-existing conditions. I could have terminal cancer and they have to insure me because their contract with my employer says they will insure all employees and no limits on pre-existing conditions. Try to get insurance if you are an individual with a serious medical condition that is expensive to treat. If you can even find coverage the insurance company will exclude that pre-existing condition and won't pay for anything even remotely associated with that condition. Yes the health care system in the US is goatfucked but I doubt socialized medicine is the answer either.

good point. i forgot to mention that the employer picks up the extra cost we dont.

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Originally posted by gehzumteufel why not a two-tiered system? im sure it could work because the govt/our taxes wont be paying for cancer treatments, or anything serious in the way i would have it done. it would be all the gay ass shit that people get sick with every day, the small bullshit fractures that happen, muscle pulls, you know. the shit that doesnt need some doctor that specializes in things and keeps costs down and manageable. then the private health care would cover the rest. thats a smart alternative imho. obviously its an unrefined idea, but from a more neutral perspective it seems a lot better than one extreme or the other.

This is the kind of rational idea that needs to be explored in the US. I know everyone who doesn't have insurance or who is paying out the ass for insurance wants to hear that everything will be free and the government will pick up the tab but that isn't realistic. The US government cannot afford to provide full health care benefits for everyone, expecially at the same level that those of us with good private insurance are used to getting.

The cost of medicaid eats up nearly 25% of the yearly budget for each and every state in the US. This covers a small fraction of the popluation who is very poor. Try to expand that coverage to everyone in the US and every year and the program's cost will consume more money than is taken in from tax revenue for the entire year.

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Originally posted by XaNaX This is the kind of rational idea that needs to be explored in the US. I know everyone who doesn't have insurance or who is paying out the ass for insurance wants to hear that everything will be free and the government will pick up the tab but that isn't realistic. The US government cannot afford to provide full health care benefits for everyone, expecially at the same level that those of us with good private insurance are used to getting. The cost of medicaid eats up nearly 25% of the yearly budget for each and every state in the US. This covers a small fraction of the popluation who is very poor. Try to expand that coverage to everyone in the US and every year and the program's cost will consume more money than is taken in from tax revenue for the entire year.

exactly why i think a good structured two-tiered system can work. if your GP (family doctor as they call it outside the states) can fix it, then its probably something small. if it requires a ton of tests, or they think its cancer or something major, then private insurance, if you have it, should be where your own situation kicks in.

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