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-- I think this is where the future of electronic music is heading...
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selling a hi hat pattern, thats like selling an undone artwork, unworthy of being sold.

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Originally posted by HaeD selling a hi hat pattern, thats like selling an undone artwork, unworthy of being sold.

No it isn't. That analogy is poor to the point of being false. I'm not talking about selling a hi-hat pattern just to listen to, I'm talking about selling a hi-hat to be used.

DJs are collagists anyway- they create a larger picture out of smaller musical moments. Acapellas have been used for years too. And why should we have to suffer good tracks ruined by poor elements? A track will no longer have a poor bassline if you can use a better one instead.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J To repeat what everyone has said: Live/electronic fusions are as old as the hills and pretty damn regressive. In fact, my prediction for the future direction of electronic music would be summarised as "the death of the song". Tracks as coherent, complete pieces of music with defined boundaries are over. DJs won't buy tracks anymore, they'll buy melodies, beats and vocals seperately. Hawtin was talking recently about the idea of selling a hi-hat pattern which a DJ could integrate with any track. The future is fragmentation.

i see that as becoming more commonplace in the immediate future. still though I think song-based dance music will continue to hold.


I think the farther future lies in automatic, live, parametric modulation of dance music.

elimination of the deejay and the artist altogether really.

replacing deejays will be parametric modelers and programmers.


supermarkets and what not will use it to constantly keep a strongly branded 'muzak' changing and encouraging consumption in the store.

hotels and cheap lounges will use it to create ambience

my guess is that major record labels will prevent anything like this to replace the hit and the star, so I wouldn't expect to see it in top 40 clubs, but maybe automatic deejay systems which read, select, mix, etc might be used.

They could also sell MIDI patterns to be used live in the synths of whichever producer-DJ-perfomer-person bought them.

Live sequencing and improvisatory arrangement, modification, and combination of tracks, with performers creating a unique and seamless stream of music during every "set," with things they created themselves beforehand, things they thought up on the fly, and things they bought or borrowed from other producers all blending together.

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Originally posted by nefardec yeah if anything i think that mindset is regressive and on the other hand you have Girl Talk, who revels in how little of a musician he is. (what the fuck is he doing at DEMF?)

lol he's a party rocker

he'll bring all the suburban hipsters out.

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Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles They could also sell MIDI patterns to be used live in the synths of whichever producer-DJ-perfomer-person bought them. Live sequencing and improvisatory arrangement, modification, and combination of tracks, with performers creating a unique and seamless stream of music during every "set," with things they created themselves beforehand, things they thought up on the fly, and things they bought or borrowed from other producers all blending together.

It sounds fucking awesome, doesn't it?

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Originally posted by nefardec I think the farther future lies in automatic, live, parametric modulation of dance music. elimination of the deejay and the artist altogether really. replacing deejays will be parametric modelers and programmers.

I know you've mentioned it before but it's something that seems too out-there for anything but the most experimental of scenes right now. I can't see a precedent for the idea to be profitable.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J No it isn't. That analogy is poor to the point of being false. I'm not talking about selling a hi-hat pattern just to listen to, I'm talking about selling a hi-hat to be used. DJs are collagists anyway- they create a larger picture out of smaller musical moments. Acapellas have been used for years too. And why should we have to suffer good tracks ruined by poor elements? A track will no longer have a poor bassline if you can use a better one instead.

I find it very unrealistic though. I doubt that anyone would pay for a hi-hat whilst he/she can make one within a matter of seconds in Ableton, and even better, create it in ways that he/she precisely wants and even within the context of a live performance. Plus, this "fragmented-loops" thing could work for very loopy music, like minimal techno or very repeatetive house or something, because i doubt how one can make and sell a melodic lead-line or a melodic progressing bassline, since these elements often go hand-in-hand with the other elements of the track. Furthermore, an increase in EDM's musical complexity (more complex tracks with complex rhythms and melodies)would be at odds with such a "single-simple-loop" tracks.

I rather see a more "interactive/live" future, in which software sequencers like Ableton will allow djs to radically change existing tracks, or literally create tracks from zero whilst performing live, adding loops and melodies in the process. Pretty much what sasha was doing.

Or the opposite could happen. Maybe people would come to hate the "digitization" of everything and go back to more traditional, analogue ways. It would be rather cool if djs are substituted by groups of electronic musicians-performers, in which a drummer would play the rhythms, a keyboard player the synths and so-on.


I guess that some loops could appear, in the same way that we have acapellas and dj-tool-loops today, but these would still be in the "dj-tools" section and would possibly not represent the norm.

What's the purpose of that really? DJs/parametric modelers will have 50+% harder time realizing their performance and stupid average Joe on drugs in public will have like 10% better time (if not less).

I mean, I'm all for new ways of performing, but the idea presented by most of you here doesn't seem profitable and I doubt it will ever kick off.

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Originally posted by sljiva What's the purpose of that really? DJs/parametric modelers will have 50+% harder time realizing their performance and stupid average Joe on drugs in public will have like 10% better time (if not less).

Well, you have a point lol. I mean you can see it happening even now. Sasha was very excited in using Ableton, "fucking" with the tracks live etc. but i learn that he stopped doing that already. Plus,whilst many other djs use Ableton-live and similar stuff in order to perform, they don't seem to go very far with these high-tech tools. They probably realised that their extra effort is not making a substantial difference on the numbers of clubbers/fans, neither to the XTC-driven brains of the clubbers themselves.




This doesn't contradict the fact that live djs/acts would still make albums and people would come to listen to them because they like their albums. Like in rock concerts really. The oldest thing in music.

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Originally posted by PETRAN I find it very unrealistic though. I doubt that anyone would pay for a hi-hat whilst he/she can make one within a matter of seconds in Ableton, and even better, create it in ways that he/she precisely wants and even within the context of a live performance.

Depends on the cost, depends on the pattern.

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Plus, this "fragmented-loops" thing could work for very loopy music, like minimal techno or very repeatetive house or something, because i doubt how one can make and sell a melodic lead-line or a melodic progressing bassline, since these elements often go hand-in-hand with the other elements of the track. Furthermore, an increase in EDM's musical complexity (more complex tracks with complex rhythms and melodies)would be at odds with such a "single-simple-loop" tracks.

Not true. Listen to DJ Shadow and then tell me that tracks built out of elements of pre-existing tracks have to "single-simple-loop" with no melodic counterpoint or complexity.

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I rather see a more "interactive/live" future, in which software sequencers like Ableton will allow djs to radically change existing tracks, or literally create tracks from zero whilst performing live, adding loops and melodies in the process. Pretty much what sasha was doing.

That's essentially how acts like Orbital have been performing live for almost twenty years. It has never become the next big thing and I don't see it suddenly happening.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Not true. Listen to DJ Shadow and then tell me that tracks built out of elements of pre-existing tracks have to "single-simple-loop" with no melodic counterpoint or complexity.

Yeah but Dj Shadow's music (or Amon Tobin's for that matter) is a very special kind of experimental abstract hip-hop which is usually build on top of very basic loops.


Imagine a melodic lead-line, like the one featured in "Lush 3.1" by Orbital, sold on its own. Now, because this lead-line is musically complex, it would be rather difficult to find elements like bass-lines to match it (in terms of notes). This idea simply doesn't seem to work in types of music that retain a certain musicianship. Unless all future EDM is a type of abstract tapestry made of micro-loops with no specific themes or melodies or whatsoever. Or basic minimal techno...



As for the live-pa thing, i know that it is very old, thats what i supported in my first post. This is why i said in my previous post, that i would "like" to see it done ("it would be rather cool"...bla bla). It was not a prediction or whatsoever.

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Originally posted by PETRAN Yeah but Dj Shadow's music (or Amon Tobin's for that matter) is a very special kind of experimental abstract hip-hop which is usually build on top of very basic loops.

I think you're being pretty extreme calling the samples "very basic".

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Imagine a melodic lead-line, like the one featured in "Lush 3.1" by Orbital, sold on its own. Now, because this lead-line is musically complex, it would be rather difficult to find elements like bass-lines to match it (in terms of notes). This idea simply doesn't seem to work in types of music that retain a certain musicianship. Unless all future EDM is a type of abstract tapestry made of micro-loops with no specific themes or melodies or whatsoever. Or basic minimal techno...

Firstly, I don't know which bit of Lush 3.1 you think is "musically complex", considering a few days ago you were calling the piano in Water From A Vine Leaf "simple" to suit your argument. Secondly, if you listen to Lush 3.1, the supporting elements are pretty simple loops no more complex than anything Shadow has ever sampled. The bassline is one loop that doesn't alter regardless of what any other element is doing, ditto the synth loop that opens the track and pretty much everything but the lead.

The requirements of DJing have already made electronic music necessarily simple: it's almost always in 4/4, it almost never changes tempo mid-track and it is usually strictly phrased. There are obvious limits to the complexity of the music in the idea, but that doesn't necessarily mean very much.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J I know you've mentioned it before but it's something that seems too out-there for anything but the most experimental of scenes right now. I can't see a precedent for the idea to be profitable.

maybe.


it's taking off in architecture at the moment. there is software that lets you input the program of your desired building, area, sizes of windows, colors, materials, etc and it generates a building down to the smallest detail drawings of window joints.

I suppose architecture is a bit different because it's something that is used in a very utilitarian way in the vast majority of cases, whereas music has always been this sort of otherworldly thing.




I see what Petran is saying about an interactive future and maybe something like the microsoft surface or that crazy light table thing will become more popular.




My guess is that things won't change very much until there is a really important invention.



Something else I think we might see happening through the use of those hypers-specific laser-like speakers is a kind of grid of sound which projects signal back to the visitor beneath it as it tracks him across the room, letting everyone hear something a little different based on their preferences.

Linkin parkk..

i agree with op. future will be more live performing of music. and yea producers have been doing it for years, but a lot of them suck at it, usually because the music is too complex to perform live, the hardware/physical interface is too limiting. dj sets always sounded better than PAs, most PAs today sound boring (imo), but then you have a very few that pull it off and actually sound good.

yes its regressive in that its going back to rockstar mentality bla bla, but thats how things go, the old stuff gets reinvented in the future, usually a 20 year cycle. for example a lot of elements of the 80's is big right now, in clothes and in music, even in drugs (coke is huge right now). about 10 years ago the style was sort of 70's ish, and then "that 70's show" comes out, people are wearing bell bottomish jeans, music was trippier, etc.

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Originally posted by RJT I think Ben has a pretty good idea what he's talking about.

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Originally posted by nefardec I think Julien's right, though - you won't get a band playing a seven hour DJ set, so it sort of balances out if you're a bean-counter.

Both are true. Some very well-known DJs (even internationally) in Montreal have told me that doing a live act is actually paid less than DJ sets. Plus, you have to take into consideration the time put in a live act. It might be the same pay, but in the end, a DJ set is "less work", in the sense that you don't have to "compose" tracks and carry equipment and all.

Maybe what Ben meant was about big name live acts, that get booked to play DJ and get paid less.

But for many guys, playing a 1h live act and playing a 7hr DJ set, the money is obviously not the same.

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