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-- rip, orbital - chime
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quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog Meh, I have Chime, Belfast, Halcyon and all their other big hits on CD, as well as some their less popular stuff like Oi, but I still don't see what all the fuss is about.

Do you actually have any of their albums, or just shitty compilations like Work and Halcyon?

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See, something like Choice - Acid Eiffel was made at a similar time, most likely using similar hardware and methods, and to my ears, it's infinitely better than anything from Orbital. Better melodies, higher production values. Or perhaps Melt - Be Liquid (1993), same boat. Better production values, better melodies, better percussion.

Are these the only two early 90s tracks you know? They seem to be your examples for everything from that era. Certainly their production value isn't that good, not the best of the early 90s and not really any superior to Orbital.

I think what puts some people off about Orbital is that they're very idiosyncratic. They have a unique melodic style and their music often doesn't click with people straight off the bat. Acid Eiffel and Be Liquid are really, for all their quality, pretty conventional tracks. Except on their weak first album, Orbital have never attempted to adapt to conventions. They always make the listener adapt to them. That's why Orbital were often said to be "ahead of the game" in reviews, even though really they just weren't playing the same game as everyone else.

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Originally posted by Beat Blog I find their melodies very bland and overly repetitive, and the production values amateurish, even for the early 90's. Their tinny percussion annoys me especially.

Weird, the production on stuff as far back as the Brown Album (1993) doesn't sound "amateurish" to me at all.

At first, I thought it must have just been a Youtube fluke. Some wanker who didn't know their shit posting something on Youtube. I checked Beatport, and sure enough, there it is, an April release. They didn't even change the drum patterns.

Fuck, there are even people remixing it, saying they're remixing the Shapeshifters. Sometimes, the world makes no sense to me.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Do you actually have any of their albums, or just shitty compilations like Work and Halcyon?

No, I don't own any of their albums.

Understandably, certain artists need to be experienced "as an album", but it also stands to reason that individual tracks should stand alone from an album.

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Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Are these the only two early 90s tracks you know? They seem to be your examples for everything from that era. Certainly their production value isn't that good, not the best of the early 90s and not really any superior to Orbital.

Does that mean someone has actually been reading posts and remembering them?

Admittedly, early 90's music isn't my forte (though it seems to be yours, based on those 3 mixes I downloaded), but these are two tracks which for me are standouts from the time, hence my constant references to them.

I'm surprised you say these two tracks aren't unique. Acid Eiffel goes for 14 minutes featuring basically only 4 sounds; the kick, some cymbals, the lead melody and a background pad. At the time that was groundbreaking. Be Liquid not so much, but it is still a unique song too.

I know it's personal preference, but I REALLY struggle to see how you can say Orbital's production even compares with these two in a technical sense. When I listen to Orbital, the first thing I think of is "oh, this is early electronic stuff, listen to the tinny percussion and basic drum patterns", even if if I've never heard that particular song, whereas there is plenty of early 90's stuff that doesn't sound nearly so dated:

Emmanuel Top - Acid Phase
Phoenix - Rise Up
Astral Projection - Mahadeva
Frankie Knuckles - The Whistle Song (this in particular has a very "clean" bass line and far more realistic and sharp percussion than anything I know from Orbital)
Cosmic Baby - Loops Of Infinity
Jens - Loops & Tings
Quench - Dreams
Laurent Garnier - Astral Dreams
Marmion - Sch�neberg
Green Velvet - Flash
Degeneration - Una Musica Senza Ritmo
Capricorn - 20Hz
Thomas Schumacher - Ficken
Man With No Name - Lunar Cycle

I would consider all of those tracks to have a better sound technically than Orbital's early works, though granted a few of those examples are from '94-95 rather than '92-93.

However, the best example I can probably think of is Age Of Love - The Age Of Love (1990). This track sounds unbelievably far ahead of it's time both technically and musically. I find it to be far more hypnotic and melodic than any Orbital works.

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog No, I don't own any of their albums. Understandably, certain artists need to be experienced "as an album", but it also stands to reason that individual tracks should stand alone from an album.

To be honest, most people think they do anyway. I can play tracks like Transient, The Girl With The Sun In Her Head and Belfast away from their album contexts and still love them. But one of the things that made Orbital ground-breaking was their album work. Not only were they one of the first electronic dance acts to make great albums, they made albums differently to how others did them. Not to mention that they began to break down genre boundaries (you can hear techno, rave, trance, house and ambient in The Brown Album) and eventually defied classification altogether. You might not realise that from their biggest hits because their hits tended to be their most conventional work.

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I'm surprised you say these two tracks aren't unique. Acid Eiffel goes for 14 minutes featuring basically only 4 sounds; the kick, some cymbals, the lead melody and a background pad. At the time that was groundbreaking.

It's a really good track and an obvious classic, but if you listen to it it's some fairly typical percussion, an acid line and some very nice pads. Percussion + pads + acid line was not really groundbreaking in the early 90s. It's a very soulful piece of acid house, but at the end of the day it's still acid house, which wasn't madly innovative by then. Even the title fits into the the standard "Acid [Fill in the blank]" nomenclature of the genre: Acid Trax, Acid Over, Acid Crash etc.

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I know it's personal preference, but I REALLY struggle to see how you can say Orbital's production even compares with these two in a technical sense. When I listen to Orbital, the first thing I think of is "oh, this is early electronic stuff, listen to the tinny percussion and basic drum patterns", even if if I've never heard that particular song, whereas there is plenty of early 90's stuff that doesn't sound nearly so dated...

I don't get why you think Acid Eiffel's drum patterns are any better than anything Orbital made from that era. I don't think Orbital's production is particularly outstanding but then I don't think many Orbital fans claim it is. Even though their production quality improved over time so it's only a criticism you should level at their old stuff anyway. They did make four albums between 1996 and 2004 you know!

quote:

I would consider all of those tracks to have a better sound technically than Orbital's early works, though granted a few of those examples are from '94-95 rather than '92-93.

I could name dozens of tracks produced better than Orbital's work from the 92-93 period. Most, if not all the tracks in my progressive house mix in my sig have production that blows Orbital, Choice and Melt out of the water. Almost any progressive house from that era still stands up today. But that's beside the point.

Really, you're judging the wrong period of Orbital's career. The Green Album and associated work is easily their most amateurish and forgettable, because it was made when they were young, inexperienced and unsigned. Their best work came from The Brown Album onwards.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Really, you're judging the wrong period of Orbital's career. The Green Album and associated work is easily their most amateurish and forgettable, because it was made when they were young, inexperienced and unsigned. Their best work came from The Brown Album onwards.

So you're saying you don't think Halcyon and Chime were some of their best works?

I'm basing my assertions on the fact that we were talkin about these big tracks of theirs in '91-'92, not so much their later stuff.

However, even talking about the Brown Album onwards, I still find their work uninspiring musically, though I confess I know little about their technical production skills at this time.

Might be time for a revisit though, often in the past I've disliked stuff on the first five or so listens then loved it from then on...

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog So you're saying you don't think Halcyon and Chime were some of their best works?

Not personally. I don't like the original Halcyon, and even Halcyon & On & On isn't their best for me. Chime is a good record, but again not their best. There's probably ten Orbital tracks I'd put before these two at least, although I prefer to listen to the full albums.

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I'm basing my assertions on the fact that we were talkin about these big tracks of theirs in '91-'92, not so much their later stuff.

Well, no. You were saying Orbital doesn't do it to you because of the poor production, which you seem to be basing entirely on their early material. Orbital had seven albums across 14 years as well as numerous EPs, live records and even film scores. To judge their output based on their early material alone is hardly fair or accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J Well, no. You were saying Orbital doesn't do it to you because of the poor production, which you seem to be basing entirely on their early material. Orbital had seven albums across 14 years as well as numerous EPs, live records and even film scores. To judge their output based on their early material alone is hardly fair or accurate.

Not quite correct.

I dislike their musical composition far more than I dislike their technical skills, based on everything I've heard, spanning from 1990 to 2000.

In a technical sense I'm not familiar enough with their newer (post 1995) productions to make a judgement, though everything I've heard prior to then seems amateurish to me.

So, I think it's entirely fair for me to dislike Orbital based on a ten year span of work that I've listened to.

However, though I agree it's not fair to judge someone only on their first output, if you look at many artists, their first works are often some of the best, i.e Trentem�ller - Le Champagne.

quote:

Originally posted by Beat Blog Not quite correct. I dislike their musical composition far more than I dislike their technical skills, based on everything I've heard, spanning from 1990 to 2000. In a technical sense I'm not familiar enough with their newer (post 1995) productions to make a judgement, though everything I've heard prior to then seems amateurish to me.

I was referring to your assertions about their production quality. Musically I can't really argue beyond what I have said: they are an idiosyncratic act and their unconventional melodic style may take time to click or simply not click at all. Beyond that I don't know what I can say.

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However, though I agree it's not fair to judge someone only on their first output, if you look at many artists, their first works are often some of the best, i.e Trentem�ller - Le Champagne.

Depends entirely on the artist. Some start off strong and fade away, others do the opposite. Some peak in the middle of the career. However, since I was talking about production, I think it's fair to say that production almost always improves over an artist's career, if only due to technological advancement.

quote:

Originally posted by SYSTEM-J However, since I was talking about production, I think it's fair to say that production almost always improves over an artist's career, if only due to technological advancement.

I definitely agree with that.

I like seeing how some artists have improved their production techniques over time actually.

for the longest time i thought there were cosmic illustrations like galaxies on the sleeve of halcyon

then recently i realized it's lettuce

there was a pretty bad drum & bass remix not too long ago also

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