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Re: Re: Re: Irony (reference)

quote:

Originally posted by diggerz You make some pretty good points but if we go on thinking like this, how many words will loose their essence ?

What "essence?"

What meaning does a word have apart from what people agree that it means?

It's not like English was handed down from the heavens by God and only he gets to decide what the "real" meaning is.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Irony (reference)

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles What "essence?" What meaning does a word have apart from what people agree that it means? It's not like English was handed down from the heavens by God and only he gets to decide what the "real" meaning is.

education in america is going down the toilet.

i rest my case.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irony (reference)

quote:

Originally posted by diggerz education in america is going down the toilet. i rest my case.

What does that have to do with anything?

Do you think that only people who believe in the "essences" of words can get or give a proper education?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irony (reference)

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles What does that have to do with anything? Do you think that only people who believe in the "essences" of words can get or give a proper education?

the i know it all attitude, the getting a degree to earn more money (instead of acquiring knowledge), the only ivy-league schools are worth a shot and i need a student loan for that (credit crisis).

Let's just say that you don't know much about the English language if you can't be bothered to study the roots .

Wow, what would shakespeare say? Just think about that.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irony (reference)

quote:

Originally posted by diggerz Wow, what would shakespeare say? Just think about that.

Wasn't he notorious for butchering/reassigning the meanings of words?

yes.

Although there has to be something said for the difference between a skilled user of the language manipulating it for literary purposes and someone who simply never learned the rules in the first place.

Kind of the difference between a composer using dissonance for emotional effect and a toddler banging at random on a piano.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Although there has to be something said for the difference between a skilled user of the language manipulating it for literary purposes and someone who simply never learned the rules in the first place.

Well, that's exactly my point. People have shun off proper English due to mere ignorance or a lack of education. Yes, the language changes according to culture/ethnicity/etc but rules of use were established for a reason.

Besides, it's always nice to know more about one's own language and what not. It seems to me that you are defending the latter, the uneducated, the common people, am i right? is my assertion correct?

you're justifying their ignorance by claiming that irony has different meanings for different people.

repost

How ironic.

quote:

Originally posted by diggerz It seems to me that you are defending the latter, the uneducated, the common people, am i right? is my assertion correct?

Fuck no.

I'll certainly defend the right of the uneducated to get an education, but I won't defend them should they fail to exercise that right, since they're then a member of the class of the willfully ignorant.

quote:

you're justifying their ignorance by claiming that irony has different meanings for different people.

Huh? I'm saying the use of the word "irony" has changed over time, and that this doesn't have all that much to do with education or lack of it. People, even educated ones, use old words in new ways, so just deal with it.

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles Fuck no. I'll certainly defend the right of the uneducated to get an education, but I won't defend them should they fail to exercise that right, since they're then a member of the class of the willfully ignorant. Huh? I'm saying the use of the word "irony" has changed over time, and that this doesn't have all that much to do with education or lack of it. People, even educated ones, use old words in new ways, so just deal with it.

how complacent! So, according to you, I have to tolerate people using words they don't even understand or grasp?

I will not, i refuse to. I truly object as that will only feed to this mentality of egotistic and self-satisfied people that will settle for what the majority think is "correct" or "acceptable", while basing their judgement on "popular songs" or "popular sayings" that have harvest this fallible mentality.

quote:

Originally posted by diggerz how complacent! So, according to you, I have to tolerate people using words they don't even understand or grasp?

You don't have to -- but if you don't tolerate it, you're going to be fighting lots of losing battles. Does that sound like a good use of your time?

quote:

Originally posted by MrJiveBoJingles You don't have to -- but if you don't tolerate it, you're going to be fighting lots of losing battles. Does that sound like a good use of your time?

No, I guess you're right. It just makes me sad ...

quote:

Originally posted by nefardec you're right, but i think the meaning indeed has changed much in the same way "nice" once meant something close to "naughty" languages are spoken, and i feel that it's unnatural and maybe regressive to try to use literature as a basis for spoken language, which is the only true language. writing is another set of signs entirely

i love this guy

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irony (reference)

I'm usually not a nitpicker, and definately not trying to make a personal jab, but in a thread where you assert that...

quote:

Originally posted by diggerz education in america is going down the toilet. i rest my case.

it helps to check your spelling.

quote:

Originally posted by diggerz You make some pretty good points but if we go on thinking like this, how many words will loose their essence ? irony should not be approached as a volatile term, in my opinion, people should study and practice the appropiate use. If we go on thinking every word means something else to different people, then most words will loose significance. In the literary world (the world of letters and writing) this is terrible, because some words are worlds of their own and have a meaning (a pre-established meaning).

i'm hessitant though

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lose

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irony (reference)

quote:

Originally posted by Gen3r4l1ty I'm usually not a nitpicker, and definately not trying to make a personal jab, but in a thread where you assert that... it helps to check your spelling.

oooohhh definately is not a word!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Irony (reference)

quote:

Originally posted by diggerz oooohhh definately is not a word!

touche' good sir.

quote:

Originally posted by diggerz that is also a paradox in it's own way as Shakespeare himself wrote plays (spoken language as you said).

well there's a slight difference


i kind of romanticize true oral tradition





in regards to what i said about bastardizing, english really did not bastardize german, since 'german' as we know it developed simultaneously with english. there are a few german words in the language.

the common ancestor language of german and english was spoken in the bronze age - so all german words in english are likely adopted in more modern times rather than evolved


a language that has been much more bastardized in english is french, after the norman invasion


the english language has one of the most fascinating histories. it is the product of centuries of warfare, cultural assimilation, politics, and literary tyranny

thank you for everyone who's posted on this thread.

i have faith in the u.s education system.

lots of it.

but some things must change,

from the bottom up.

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