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-- China taking over Africa?
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Thats very easy to say sitting in a developed country with the largest economy on earth that hasn't had a civil war lately. Look back to the wreck of a colony that the US was prior and after its civil war and you have some understanding of the social mechanics at work- especially when one country invades another.
In the majority of African countries the people endemic to the country where just pushed down the rung of lower class labourers as colonial powers muscled their way in. Put their own government in place to run the country and there just simply wasn't any way as a black african you could aspire anything more than at best, paid labour.
Most where kept as serfs and indentured labourers.
After the colonies pulled out, they took all their infrastructure with them from the government all the way down to the public services and in a lot of cases there is either-

A group put in place to manage and maybe do a half-ass job of it
or
A power vacuum where the strongest rule after the chaos and do a half-ass job of it

African's aren't any different to anyone else, provided they have an opportunity to work, live and survive unmolested, but they haven't. In the few quiet decades they have you do get people like my biological father's descendants who where Indian's and Malays brought over to do manual, trained labour and stayed in Africa after the colonies moved out for a multitude of reasons not wanting to go back to India. They formed a minority middle class running businesses and did fairly well for themselves in some countries on a scale comparable to anywhere else in the world.
Course if things go to hell, there is no central bank to bail them out like in the US where they'll just happily pour money on a problem of an economic melt-down, it just keeps spiralling out of control until the place tears itself apart under ethnic tensions, anti-government forces and general disenchantment with the way things are done.

So often we read here of some yank with his crotch in one hand and a gun in the other wanking on about how prepared he's going to be if the government impinges on his rights/wages/civil liberties he's gunna put a cap in someone's arse.
Are you American so different?
Yes you are, unlike in the US where guns are a showpiece, protection from each other and some kind of personal compensation, guns in Africa are used for better or worse in the support of what an individual or group has left to them when there is no other options.
Unlike in the US, they are actually used for the purpose of those options far more frequently than anyone would like but sometimes have to.
Unlike the US, who sells their surplus military weapons along with Russia and China in bulk, by the hundreds of tons every year to Africans rather than selling them tractors, power stations, telecommunications, farming implements and educational infrastructure.

Yet you sit so happy in the superpower dreamland where you'll never have to fight for anything more than a line up at an Apple store for some new ipod. And have the nerve to be so smug about having never done any harm personally?
Your schools and countries infrastructure rely on big arms sales as much as it does anything else and are used to maim and kill people in the African continent quite effectively and the less said about constant interferences over the last 6 decades by US forces the better. But lets just say, the US has its own puppets over there who it turns a blind eye to their atrocities and abuses provided they stay pro-US with extensive military training and weaponry.
Pro US, just like you.

Bravo Lilith... this is why you should stick around PDD.

Have you ever read any Walter Rodney by any chance?

No I'm just an ordinary person, not an academic... things run happier around here when I'm not here!

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith Yet you sit so happy in the superpower dreamland where you'll never have to fight for anything more than a line up at an Apple store for some new ipod. And have the nerve to be so smug about having never done any harm personally?

Didn't you hear about The New World Map???

If you want a real close look at Africa.....maybe download it for your iPhone..... ha ha ha Kitten Has Claws )

Check out Darwin's Nightmare

a real good docu that will allow you to see how hard it really is over there ...

quote:

In the 1950s or 1960s, the Nile perch was released into the Lake Victoria. In just a few decades, the large, voracious predator has all but eliminated the other species of fish, turning the lake into an ecological wasteland. "But economically, it's good" -- and indeed, perch fillet is Tanzania's best selling export to Europe. Fishermen, factory workers, civil servants, pilots of cargo aircrafts, delegates of the European Commission, communities living around Lake Victoria: plenty of people are involved in some way in this new industry. But if Africa exports hundreds of tons of premium-priced fish each day, what exactly do Africans get in return?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0424024/plotsummary

Don't know if its on youtube.....

quote:

Originally posted by Lilith No I'm just an ordinary person, not an academic... things run happier around here when I'm not here!

Yeah, but you bring a perspective nobody else here can match.

I do think you would enjoy Walter Rodney though.

quote:

"The question as to who, and what, is responsible for African underdevelopment can be answered at two levels. Firstly, the answer is that the operation of the imperialist system bears major responsibility for African economic retardation by draining African wealth and by making it impossible to develop more rapidly the resources of the continent. Secondly, one has to deal with those who manipulated the system and those who are either agents or unwitting accomplices of the said system. The capitalists of Western Europe were the ones who actively extended their exploitation from inside Europe to cover the whole of Africa. In recent times, they were joined, and to some extent replaced, by the capitalists from the United States; and for many yearsnow even the workers of those metropolitan countries have benefited from the exploitation and underdevelopment of Africa." (27-28) "None of these remarks are intended to remove the ultimate responsibility for development from the shoulders of Africans. Not only are there African accomplices inside the imperialist system, but every African has a responsibility to understand the system and work for its overthrow." (28)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Eu...eveloped_Africa

quote:

Originally posted by LazFX Didn't you hear about The New World Map???

Africa is missing..

I wonder what Chinese food taste like in Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by Kinezi Africa is missing..

a ref to Lillith's post.... the Ipod?? the perceived American Viewpoint of the world... do you understand... the reason why there is no Africa? from the photo?

Seems fairly obvious to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Zild Seems fairly obvious to me.

What, that map?

Yeah why would an American care to draw in Africa? We don't give a fuck. My favorite though is how Western Europe is labled pussies.

quote:

Originally posted by Zild Yeah why would an American care to draw in Africa? We don't give a fuck. My favorite though is how Western Europe is labled pussies.

Well I think there is one error.. 'bomb goes here' should be replaced with 'oil comes from here' .. rest is all okay.. santa is my favorite.

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov I couldn't disagree more. Read the article I posted - there's a growing resentment of the Chinese by many Africans for ruining local small businesses, ignoring African requests for localized sub-contracting, and increasingly, stealing African jobs. And now a burgeoning grassroots backlash against the Chinese willingness to look the other way in regards to human rights abuses.

Africa has always whined and will continue to do so. They want Chinese money and funding, but then want Chinese to do what Africans want for themselves. Well, sorry, thats not going to work. Chinese didnt come to Africa to make Africa a powerful and independent continent, thats a no-brainer. Chinese human rights abuses - are you kidding me - just look at some African countries for Christ's sake. They cant even deal with Mugabe properly, and they could have long time ago. Look at what happened in South Africa not long ago - they hate the fellow black man, xenophobia is huge. They cant even keep Darfur under peace and disagree on so many things apart from blaming everything on the white man, which is partially true to do. Corruption and crime is rampant.

Yes, Europe and USA has forked them hard in the past and present, but Chinese are playing a different game. Africa can play smart and lean Chinese to their advantage.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnetonium Africa has always whined and will continue to do so. They want Chinese money and funding, but then want Chinese to do what Africans want for themselves. Well, sorry, thats not going to work. Chinese didnt come to Africa to make Africa a powerful and independent continent, thats a no-brainer. Chinese human rights abuses - are you kidding me - just look at some African countries for Christ's sake. They cant even deal with Mugabe properly, and they could have long time ago. Look at what happened in South Africa not long ago - they hate the fellow black man, xenophobia is huge. They cant even keep Darfur under peace and disagree on so many things apart from blaming everything on the white man, which is partially true to do. Corruption and crime is rampant. Yes, Europe and USA has forked them hard in the past and present, but Chinese are playing a different game. Africa can play smart and lean Chinese to their advantage.

There are 54 countries in Africa and 3 de facto states. You expect them to agree on everything? That's like saying it's Asia's fault that all of their states don't know what to do about Burma. Or Europe's fault that all of their states don't know what to do about Chechnya. Or Palestine.

Africans "whining" about their exploitation is perfectly legitimate in the context of the locus of power. Africa is starved for capital - 20 states are still in debt - and development money from the West increasingly has strings attached - strings that most African states are tired of pulling. That's why many African governments are turning to the East... cheap loans with no contingencies... all they have to do is be subservient to the Chinese corporations moving in across the continent and do nothing to promote indigenous businesses.

African countries should learn from the past and open up their doors to China. Go the route Japan did after Perry visited their shores in the 1800s and industrialize as best you can in a relatively stable environment fostered by the Chinese. Sure there will be growing pains like shifting career choices but overall I believe this partnership is beneficial to all.

One huge problem in Africa is overpopulation. I guess its natural when the life expectancy is so low. Maybe if they can raise their standard of living and education, they won't be having so many kids to starve. A lot of countries in Africa, I see a lot of potential, but then I look at Khartoum, and Harare, and I still see uncivilized savages. Not all Africa, but in those places, especially. God, am I ever thankful I was born American.

With the exception of Nigeria, overpopulation isn't really Africa's concern. There are fewer people in India. Rural land use is a problem, as many farmers aren't able to do anything more than raise subsistence crops - that is, the urban centers are overcrowded simply by virtue of the fact that the hinterlands are not yet able to provide for them. There are vast swathes of Africa that Norman Borlaug's Green Revolution hasn't even reached yet.

Simply said what they need is capital and China will provide them with it. Not for free of course. Putting sanctions on certain African countries while sending them aid is not going to help them at all.

One thing I know is that most of Egypt's 60 million people live in Cairo or along the banks of the Nile. That's HUGELY overcrowded.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton One thing I know is that most of Egypt's 60 million people live in Cairo or along the banks of the Nile. That's HUGELY overcrowded.

Thats your lame perception.

quote:

Originally posted by Kinezi Thats your lame perception.

No it's not you dimwit.

quote:

Egypt looks to desert to ease overcrowding Cairo Population boom is under control June 26, 1997 Web posted at: 9:44 p.m. EDT (0144 GMT) CAIRO, Egypt (CNN) -- A newly released census shows that Egypt's once-booming birth rate has begun to taper off, but overcrowding remains a critical problem. Most of Egypt's 60 million people live in Cairo and along the banks of the Nile River, occupying only 5 percent of the country. The rest of the nation -- most of it arid desert -- is unoccupied.

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9706/26/egypt.population/

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton No it's not you dimwit. http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9706/26/egypt.population/

Look when 90% of the o****ry remains inhabtable and dooes not sustain life.. than its quit obvous you stay close to water.. thats not over-crowding.. its common sense..

Overcrowding is better defined as having more people in an area than the infrastructure can support.

quote:

Originally posted by Lebezniatnikov Not true - China is deep in money, assets, and personnel. Chinese business-owners are flooding many African markets, and construction firms dominate on the continent. The graph I posted was foreign direct investment directly from the Chinese government, but doesn't even come close to describing the amount of private investments and contracts won by Chinese state firms. Chinese banks are the tip of the iceberg.

Appologies wasn't here until now. But the article you quoted contained this:

quote:

This year, China pledged $20 billion to finance trade and infrastructure across the continent over the next three years.

Or �10 billion pounds over three years or �3 billion a year. Believe me investment in China by "the west" would dwarf that with consummate ease (even ten times that).

That said yeah China has a huge fund of money, but so do the middle eastern countries (if not more). They are the ones buying up western premium wealth creation businesses like banks. Historically they have always under performed but by buying these up they could totally transform the world.

As the oil price goes up China could find itself in a very sticky situation unless it invests wisely. Africa will be part of that, but never a panacea.

I see the Russia/China link as being far more significant.

As for the comments about Africa under performing development wise. It was until very recently under control, there was a power vacuum and there were/are wars. But also it has had huge amounts of aid which have (ironically) totally distorted many economies.

If a country relies on aid long term the economy reacts as the people mold their culture around it. If the aid stops (or their credit rating is fucked by "cancel world debt make poverty history claims") they are fucked. Every government in the world runs at a deficit but many these countries have had their ratings slashed because of well meaning but damaging debt write offs.

Imagine the state of the USA if it could no longer borrow?

That said the tribal culture is so deeply ingrained each country has such strongly held "inner nationalities" (tribes) that progress will be held back with in fighting. IMHO

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