TranceAddict Forums (www.tranceaddict.com/forums)
- Political Discussion / Debate
-- McCain Campaign Grows Desperate
Pages (3): « 1 [2] 3 »

so you think that because there is currently a decline in the violence in Iraq (yet a significant increase in Afghanistan) that the siutation there is a success? Wow man, you're pretty naive just like the rest of the right wingers in your country. Last time I checked over 4,000 troops have been killed in Iraq and that's going to continue no matter how much fucking spin you put on it.

And you think that because there have been no terrorist attacks on American soil since September 11th is the most important reason as to why Republicans should remain in power? Do you REALLY think that Bush did ANY better than say, Al Gore would have? September 11th, the biggest terrorist attack in your history, happened DURING Bush's administration but he receives no blame?

The gap between the rich and poor is increasing in your country. Do you really think there's a middle class anymore? The United States is much more of a have and have not country than Canada or any European nation. Please explain to me how Bush's massive tax cuts to corporations have done anything positive for the American economy during his tenure?

Do you really want to get into a discussion the Republican's strategy to deal with the environment? Bush, McCain (even Stephen Harper here in Canada) are all fucking clueless when it comes to doing anything remotely positive to tackle global warming.

Bush has pretty much taken a very successful and progressive American economy that was left for him by Clinton and run it into the ground. And it's only going to get worse if you elect that 71 year old fossil who will do nothing but maintain the status quo.

The United States used to be a country of change, evolution, vision and idealism. I really don't see too much of that anymore. The American empire is on its way out whether we like it or not. I'd rather have a fresh take on things if I were American.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Why is it so easy? What is it about Obama that is so appealing to you as a foreigner... other than his lofty speeches and promises to save the world from itself? Tell me exactly what policies he stands for, and evidence based on his political experience and voting record that makes it such an easy choice?

As for foreign policy, the willingness to engage in talks with other nations? Cooperation rather than unilateralism? Those might definitely be the most important issues. But he's a guy with a good judgment, knowledge, understanding, and charisma, which would make a huge difference.

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew But he's a guy with a good judgment, knowledge, understanding, and charisma, which would make a huge difference.

no. he appears that way to you.

almost half of the electorate in this country, to them, he doesn't quite measure up.

now the question to you is, as a foreigner, do you think we're stupid for not taking your observations about Obama as gospel?

only half of your electorate actually vote, so don't you really mean a little less than 1/4 don't like Obama?

It really doesn't matter what either candidate says or campaigns for anyway. So many Americans vote for one party or another regardless of the nominee. Some states (south, mid west) are just conservative by nature (religious too) and always vote Republican.

Plus, I really don't want to bring the race issue into this, but let's be honest. Racism is still a huge issue in your country and many Americans simply aren't going to vote for a black man, no matter how qualifed he is.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 only half of your electorate actually vote, so don't you really mean a little less than 1/4 don't like Obama?

LOL... no. Because that statement you are assuming that the other 50% that don't or can't vote all love Obama.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo no. he appears that way to you. almost half of the electorate in this country, to them, he doesn't quite measure up.

Well, obviously half the electorate are just wrong No but seriously, I have a hard time seeing how McCain would be better on those. Obviously Obama has more charisma (if you don't agree with that one, I'm just gonna give up this debate), and I think it's pretty clear that he's a more understanding guy in foreign policy (he has lived abroad, amongst other things, that makes him more qualified to understand other cultures, and no, you don't learn cultures by living at an army base abroad). When it comes to knowledge, I think they are pretty much equal, with Obama having the lead, but that doesn't matter that much since they will have advisers helping them anyway...

Anyway, I think the reason why so many still votes McCain is that they don't value those aspects. They rather want a tough guy from the military who can stop gays from marrying...

quote:

now the question to you is, as a foreigner, do you think we're stupid for not taking your observations about Obama as gospel?

No, I think McCain is a decent guy too. So you are not stupid in my opinion, just different

However, I think the use of the argument that McCain is a lot more experienced on foreign policy is kinda stupid.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss LOL... no. Because that statement you are assuming that, of the other 50% that don't or can't vote, all love Obama.

I never said that. It doesn't matter what you think if you don't vote.

If anything, Obama enjoys more support among those who don't vote or feel disenfranchised (blacks, latins, less fortunates, etc). The hard part is getting those people who dont really give a shit out to vote.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 only half of your electorate actually vote, so don't you really mean a little less than 1/4 don't like Obama?

sure. it's irrelevant, but fine.

quote:

It really doesn't matter what either candidate says or campaigns for anyway. So many Americans vote for one party or another regardless of the nominee. Some states (south, mid west) are just conservative by nature (religious too) and always vote Republican.

agree.

quote:

Plus, I really don't want to bring the race issue into this, but let's be honest. Racism is still a huge issue in your country and many Americans simply aren't going to vote for a black man, no matter how qualifed he is.

interesting. since you seem to be an advocate for the western European socialist model of government (again tell if i'm wrong) maybe you can point out to me a western European socialist model that has ever even put a black man in this position in recent history? for starters, i'll give you South Africa. you name the rest.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 The gap between the rich and poor is increasing in your country. Do you really think there's a middle class anymore? The United States is much more of a have and have not country than Canada or any European nation. Please explain to me how Bush's massive tax cuts to corporations have done anything positive for the American economy during his tenure?

HAHA... dude take it easy. You are blinded by your seething hatred. Yes, I do think Kerry and Gore would have been worse. From what I recall, Clinton was President during the 1993 trade center bombing, and look where the democratic strategy of "lets let the court system handle it" got us. Clinton also cut our military in half. I don't know why people think Europe (and it's wannabe relative Canada) are so great. If Europe is so great, why don't they produce anything anymore? Why are their fuel prices twice what it is here? Why do they have almost twice the unemployment rates we have? Why are their wages stagnant among the working class?

Bush's tax cuts jolted the economy here... that's a fucking fact. Do you understand that there has to be wage payers first, in order to have wage earners? If you tax the fuck out of corporations at an increasing rate, they are going to cut costs so they can make a profit, and payroll will be the hardest area hit. Allowing those tax cuts not to continue is essentially the same as a tax raise. Our economy hit levels it has never hit before in the history of the markets in the last couple of years, and as it regresses to the mean slightly, you America haters use it as another excuse to blame Bush and say he's fucking up our economy.I can't stand that "gap between rich and poor is getting greater" bullshit. You know what? People here have every opportunity to be as successful as they want, and I don't believe in punishing people for success of taking more money away from the rich and redistributing it to the poor, robinhood style. Obama wants to cut taxes for those at the bottom, but that's going to be hard considering this past year, Americans with an income below the median payed a record low of 2.9% of the income taxes. Read and become educated (this is based on brand new IRS tax data that came out last week... although I think it may be too complex for you based on your last math statement about how only 25% of the people in the US don't like Obama since only half of the 50% voting electorate don't like him):

"We're told the rich paid more taxes because they made a greater share of the money. That's true. "The top 1% earned 22% of all reported income, but they also paid a share of taxes not far from double their share of income." In other words, the tax code's already steeply progressive. Yes, even at 35, 36%. And what this proves is the old adage that when you lower taxes, you get increased revenue. Listen to these numbers. "In 1990, the richest 1% were 14% of the nation's income. They paid 25% of all taxes. In 2000, they paid 37%. In 2005, they paid 39%; and 2006, 40%." So since 1990, the rich, top 1%, richest 1% have paid from 25% in 1990 to 40% in 2006 of all income taxes. The richest 5% in 1990 paid 44%. In 2000, they paid 56%; in 2005, paid 60%. The top 10% now pay 71%. But the big number is the top 50% are paying 97.1% of all taxes.

"It proves the way to soak the rich is with lower tax rates, and the IRS data from last week provide more powerful validation of that proposition. But, nevertheless, the Democrats and Obama continue to say that these tax cuts have been a giveaway to the rich and it's a figment of their imagination. Taxes paid by millionaire households more than doubled to $274 billion in 2006, from $136 billion in 2003." What happened in 2003? We rolled back the Clinton tax increases! "No president has ever plied more money from the rich than George W. Bush did with his 2003 tax cuts. These tax payments from the rich explain the very rapid reduction in the budget deficit to 1.9% of GDP in 2006 when it was 3.5% in 2003."

Good thing the Pentagon backed McCain up... wait... oh, nevermind.

And here... read this article about the Canadian health care system that you must seem to think is so wonderful... since you make a big deal about so many americans not having health insurance

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArt...299282509335931


It's about your boy Claude Castonguay who created the socialist system in Canada... and how after years of watching it play out, he admits the utter failure his own "revolutionary" plan has become.

I am actually more of a centrist when it comes to politics. I believe in capitalism and the free market, but I like to see government step in and regulate when necessary.

I strongly believe in universal healthcare and I dismiss anyone who says that the United States could not bring in a system similar to Canada, Britain, France, etc without running the country into the ground. I support labour unions and worker's rights and I think that government should help people as much as possible with unemployment, education, welfare, etc.

The trouble is that being a centrist in Canada is viewed by many Americans as being some kind of nutcase liberal socialist.

quote:

Originally posted by St_Andrew Obviously Obama has more charisma (if you don't agree with that one, I'm just gonna give up this debate)

agree.

quote:

(and no, you don't learn cultures by living at an army base abroad).

using a similar standard to yours, Obama only lived "abroad" as a child.

quote:

When it comes to knowledge, I think they are pretty much equal, with Obama having the lead, but that doesn't matter that much since they will have advisers helping them anyway.

do you think wisdom is more important or knowledge. and i'd argue that, again, your assuption of Obama's knowledge is a perception and little else.

the beauty of the office of the president of the United States is that it's set up for one man, someone who is, yes, advised by council, to lead with his judgement and his alone. it's set up in a way that makes him and him alone responsible for the decision making.

what i'm saying is that it does matter what defines the man as a sound judge of character. so far, Obama hasn't proven that to the electorate substantively and the polls reflect that.

quote:

Anyway, I think the reason why so many still votes McCain is that they don't value those aspects. They rather want a tough guy from the military who can stop gays from marrying...

maybe.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss And here... read this article about the Canadian health care system that you must seem to think is so wonderful... since you make a big deal about so many americans not having health insurance http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArt...299282509335931 It's about your boy Claude Castonguay who created the socialist system in Canada... and how after years of watching it play out, he admits the utter failure his own "revolutionary" plan has become.

dude, quoting an article from an unabashed right-wing website isn't going to win me over. Canada's healthcare system is NOT perfect, but it's a far sight better than yours, which is decided by fucking INSURANCE companies who continue to post record profits while minimizing coverage on a wide scale.

I live in Canada and have made full use of the healthcare system. and I've never paid a dime for a doctor visit, checkup or surgery. I tore my rotator cuff two years ago when I got hit by a car and I was seen immediately, treated and released the next day. My dad had a heart attack and was seen immediately! If you need attention, you WILL be seen and TREATED and that is a fact. If you have a cold or a sprained arm, yeah you are going to wait a few hours in emergency but you WILL be seen at NO COST.

All the scare mongering about our healthcare system from American insurance lobbyists is just that...scare mongering. Do we really need to compare horror stories based on the Canadian and American healthcare experience?

Healthcare is great in your country..IF you have the money. ANd I"m sorry but we don't want to live in a society where money is everything in Canada. Living and receiving medical attention is a fucking right and not something you should have to pay the private sector for.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 The trouble is that being a centrist in Canada is viewed by many Americans as being some kind of nutcase liberal socialist.

...or arrogant and insensitive but thats just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo ...or arrogant and insensitive but thats just my opinion.

well you can think what you want. I like my country and I have a good life. You couldn't pay me to live in the United States.

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 well you can think what you want. I like my country and I have a good life. You couldn't pay me to live in the United States.

right. we got that.

I just cant wait to see how low the Republican party will go this time to win this election.From what I can see once again they will use extreme scare tactics to win votes.This time it seems Iran will be the excuse for them to show the American people that they are the only party that can defeat Iran by force like a true cowboy.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Nobody can afford their mortgages anymore? How the fuck is that Bush's fault? Why don't the people who irresponsibly accept loans from banks for a $250,000 house who KNOW they can't afford the payments get any of the blame? What about the banks who could clearly see peoples' finanical statements before getting the loan and know they can't afford it? No... let's blame it on Bush.

You can thank the deregulation of McCain's lobbyist loving friend Phil Gramm for deregulating the financial sector, allowing ultra high levels of leverage to be taken, and giving banks the leeway to take more risk than they could possibly handle!

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 dude, quoting an article from an unabashed right-wing website isn't going to win me over. Canada's healthcare system is NOT perfect, but it's a far sight better than yours, which is decided by fucking INSURANCE companies who continue to post record profits while minimizing coverage on a wide scale. I live in Canada and have made full use of the healthcare system. and I've never paid a dime for a doctor visit, checkup or surgery. I tore my rotator cuff two years ago when I got hit by a car and I was seen immediately, treated and released the next day. My dad had a heart attack and was seen immediately! If you need attention, you WILL be seen and TREATED and that is a fact. If you have a cold or a sprained arm, yeah you are going to wait a few hours in emergency but you WILL be seen at NO COST. All the scare mongering about our healthcare system from American insurance lobbyists is just that...scare mongering. Do we really need to compare horror stories based on the Canadian and American healthcare experience? Healthcare is great in your country..IF you have the money. ANd I"m sorry but we don't want to live in a society where money is everything in Canada. Living and receiving medical attention is a fucking right and not something you should have to pay the private sector for.

You nailed it on the head!

quote:

Originally posted by hardcore trancer I just cant wait to see how low the Republican party will go this time to win this election.From what I can see once again they will use extreme scare tactics to win votes.This time it seems Iran will be the excuse for them to show the American people that they are the only party that can defeat Iran by force like a true cowboy.

I just hope the Diebold voting machines aren't rigged again like in 2004. It's clear the Republicans are willing to do ANYTHING to win an election. Including labeling the opposition candidate a traitor...

quote:

Originally posted by Dj Smitty20 dude, quoting an article from an unabashed right-wing website isn't going to win me over. Healthcare is great in your country..IF you have the money.

Who cares what website it came from? The father of socialist medicine made the direct quotes as to the failure of his own idea... which is the point. Anyway, it's not as black and white as "if you have the money, healthcare in the US is great."

Poor people by the millions get government paid Medicaid... and no matter what, even if you are here illegally, anyone can go to the emergency room and can not be turned away and refused treatment.

My problem is paying for other people's medical expenses. Why is healthcare a "right" that the government should provide, via citizens footing the bill through taxes? If the govt stayed the hell out of healthcare, and let that industry operate like any other industry, the prices would be affordable through competition in the same way anything else in the free market is. When the govt puts their hands in there, and starts instituting all kinds of regulations, it goes sour. I don't think they can do anything better than the people who specialize in their respective fields. The government should be limited to just enough power to keep the peace and defend the nation. I think most people would not want to trade their fortunes and freedom to create a government that dictates choices to them.

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton I just hope the Diebold voting machines aren't rigged again like in 2000.

once again history pwns you...and the vast internet conspiracy nuthouse

can you tell us when Diebold began participating in the US election system?

was Diebold in Florida in 1999?

quote:

It's clear the Republicans are willing to do ANYTHING to win an election. Including labeling the opposition candidate a traitor...

who labeled him a traitor?

quote:

Originally posted by Krypton You can thank the deregulation of McCain's lobbyist loving friend Phil Gramm for deregulating the financial sector, allowing ultra high levels of leverage to be taken, and giving banks the leeway to take more risk than they could possibly handle!

Nice McCain tie in there, Krypton... lol. Who are you talking about with lobbyist friends? Obama�s up to his ears in lobbyists in the ethanol industry.

I read PKCrailstin's quote from the other day asking you if you are on the Obama train now because you just want to be on a winning team. It made me wonder, and I ask this in all sincerity... why ARE you a huge Obama mark now? If you really are a registered republican, and like me, are disgusted at the way the GOP has changed as of late with all the big spending and expansion, then it's those traditional conservative principles that you stood for that the GOP has disappointed you on. Why, as a reaction to that disappointment, would you go so far to the left with your beliefs and support... even further to the left than the candidates were before Obama on the Democratic side? I would think you would stand fast in your conservative beliefs and principles, because being conservative doesn't equate to being a member of the GOP (more so now than ever). I'm just as let down as you are with the GOP and I think McCain sucks a fat one, but I can't imagine abandoning the ideals that make me conservaive, regardless of what the party was doing. Do ideals and principles so opposite from what you used to stand for make more sense now because the GOP let you down? It does kind of look like you want to be on the winning team... like you want to be a part of history or something. I may be wrong, but I'm asking because I really want to know.

quote:

Originally posted by The17sss Who cares what website it came from? The father of socialist medicine made the direct quotes as to the failure of his own idea... which is the point. Anyway, it's not as black and white as "if you have the money, healthcare in the US is great." Poor people by the millions get government paid Medicaid... and no matter what, even if you are here illegally, anyone can go to the emergency room and can not be turned away and refused treatment. My problem is paying for other people's medical expenses. Why is healthcare a "right" that the government should provide, via citizens footing the bill through taxes? If the govt stayed the hell out of healthcare, and let that industry operate like any other industry, the prices would be affordable through competition in the same way anything else in the free market is. When the govt puts their hands in there, and starts instituting all kinds of regulations, it goes sour. I don't think they can do anything better than the people who specialize in their respective fields. The government should be limited to just enough power to keep the peace and defend the nation. I think most people would not want to trade their fortunes and freedom to create a government that dictates choices to them.

why is he a father of socialist medicine? Britain's National Health Service predates any form of socialised healthcare and Canada's system was largely based on their model. Besides, Tommy Douglas had a much more active role in pressuring the federal government (Trudeau's Liberal Administration) in the 1960s to adopt a nation-wide system.

And who says that healthcare is failing in Canada? Yes there are problems but there have always been problems. No system is perfect, but the vast majority of Canadians like our system the way it is and if any government tried to let the insurance companies run things here, they'd be brought down lightning fast with a no confidence motion.

There are long waits for non life-threatening surgeries like knee operations, etc. But Canadian healthcare is now largely focussed on attending to those who need care the most (cancer, heart attacks, brain issues, etc).

No Canadian citizen has EVER been turned down for medical care in this country and that's fact. You can't say the same for the millions of Americans who cannot afford to pay ridiculous premiums for SHITTY coverage. And then there are those who pay their premiums faithfully and then get fucked over by their insurers.

You dont want your taxes to pay for someone's healthcare? Well that's fine. But that isn't the way we do it here, or in most developed nations. And it's already apparent that a lot of Americans aren't happy with the way things are right now either.

You're right... most are not happy. So what's the problem with allowing the healthcare industry to operate as any other free market industry operates, where you get affordable prices through competition? Why toss that idea into the garbage and instead just back up the idea of socialized medicine?

quote:

Originally posted by Q5echo once again history pwns you...and the vast internet conspiracy nuthouse can you tell us when Diebold began participating in the US election system? was Diebold in Florida in 1999?

Correction, 2004. Your interpretation of history makes me vomit...

quote:

who labeled him a traitor?

"Obama would rather lose a war to win an election" -John McCain

If that does not imply Obama as a traitor, let me know..

And the "facts on the ground" are that the Iraq is not a war zone, it's an OCCUPATION zone and has been since Mr. Bush declared "victory" in San Diego Bay. I don't think the McCain campaign got that memo. Obama wants to end the occupation.

quote:

Nice McCain tie in there, Krypton... lol. Who are you talking about with lobbyist friends? Obama�s up to his ears in lobbyists in the ethanol industry.

None of Obama's people had involvement in deregulating the financial industry which ultimately led to the borderline systemic collapse of the entire financial sector. Nice try though..

quote:

I read PKCrailstin's quote from the other day asking you if you are on the Obama train now because you just want to be on a winning team. It made me wonder, and I ask this in all sincerity... why ARE you a huge Obama mark now? If you really are a registered republican, and like me, are disgusted at the way the GOP has changed as of late with all the big spending and expansion, then it's those traditional conservative principles that you stood for that the GOP has disappointed you on. Why, as a reaction to that disappointment, would you go so far to the left with your beliefs and support... even further to the left than the candidates were before Obama on the Democratic side? I would think you would stand fast in your conservative beliefs and principles, because being conservative doesn't equate to being a member of the GOP (more so now than ever). I'm just as let down as you are with the GOP and I think McCain sucks a fat one, but I can't imagine abandoning the ideals that make me conservaive, regardless of what the party was doing. Do ideals and principles so opposite from what you used to stand for make more sense now because the GOP let you down? It does kind of look like you want to be on the winning team... like you want to be a part of history or something. I may be wrong, but I'm asking because I really want to know.

I don't support Obama just because I believe he'll win. I believe he'll win not because of my personal support for him, but because he has such broad support, and looks more like a leader than McCain could ever hope for. I can't see how Obama won't win, of course, IN A FAIR ELECTION, that is.

This is where my politics lie. I am an economic conservative. A believer in free markets. But I also believe that markets should be policed, to avoid systemic market collapsed as a result of a market gone wild. I also believe in social justice. I believe health care is a basic human right. I believe the American leadership should respect the rule of law, and not that of unilateralism. I believe that humans contribute more than any other factor to global climate change and if we are to avert a climate disaster we must change the way we obtain and use energy.

The Democrats, much more than the Republicans represent these ideals. They aren't perfect. No political party is perfect. But the Republican Party has fucked things up so bad, I am in open rebellion to it. Yes, I am a registered Republican, but I will be changing that next election cycle. Or I might stay in just to take away my vote from incumbents. I'll decide my party affiliation when the time is right for me.

McCain the "maverick" is not maverick in my book. He represents the status quo. I believe this country no longer wants or needs the status quo at this point in time. This country wants reform, change, and different policy. Liberalism is the ideal of change, and liberalism is what this country needs right now. Are there times when this country needs to slow it down, and remain conservative? Most certainly, but today, after 7 years of atrocious conservative rule, liberalism is on the rise. Revolution! Thomas Jefferson once said government should be revolutionized every 10 years. Thank god we only have to wait 8 years! And when i think about the Revolution which started this country, I can't help but think that it was the most liberal movement of all! It was the conservative loyalists who wanted to remain subjects of the crown!

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright © 2000-2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.