Bush declares progress in Iraq war

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Posted by Krypton on Aug-13-2008 20:28:

quote:
Originally posted by LatinLover
^^^ If Obama were to read all the BS you talk, i'll bet that he would renounce your support

Good one, keep trying..

Posted by Clovis on Aug-13-2008 21:30:

Posted by LatinLover on Aug-13-2008 22:49:

Clovis, Clovis. All of a sudden you and the far left expect everything in Iraq to be perfect. To have a stable government, a stable economy and so on... There is no doubt that Iraq is in the process in acheiving it... we are on our way to ensure financial and civil security to Iraqis.

But it seems that to you and the far left there is no good news in Iraq.

Posted by Lebezniatnikov on Aug-14-2008 02:06:

Posted by Clovis on Aug-14-2008 04:24:

quote:
Originally posted by LatinLover
Clovis, Clovis. All of a sudden you and the far left expect everything in Iraq to be perfect. To have a stable government, a stable economy and so on... There is no doubt that Iraq is in the process in acheiving it... we are on our way to ensure financial and civil security to Iraqis.

But it seems that to you and the far left there is no good news in Iraq.

All of a sudden?

I'm just pointing out the obvious, the picture that the rest of the educated world sees very clearly and you just want to ignore for the sake of screaming VICTORY.

We've reduced a country to shambles, to a shadow of its former self, and you expect some beautiful flowering democracy to grow out of that?

Fucking delusional, thats what you are. I'm extremely happy for any good news in Iraq, including recently improved security. But theres are hardly huge victories. Face the reality of what the country is like NOW. If that situation was going on anywhere in America people would be declaring a disaster. So there are less IEDs and suicide bombings these days. They are still happening far too frequently for a society to be able to live peacefully. You would not want to live in Iraq, neither would I and to say that things are looking up while it is still this bad is pretty stupid.

Anyway I don't expect you to understand any of this because you lack the intellectual capacity to do so. But the smart folks know what the real deal is.

The Iraq war was a tragedy any way you look at it, for everyone involved.

Posted by hardcore trancer on Aug-14-2008 05:40:

Posted by Kinezi on Aug-14-2008 06:11:

Even if you turn Iraq into NYC now, you can never say.. 'see we did good thing by invading iraq' or 'see iraqies are way better now' or 'we won' and bullshit like that... cos that would be an insult both to iraqies and the dead iraqies.

Posted by hardcore trancer on Aug-14-2008 06:19:

quote:
Originally posted by Kinezi
Even if you turn Iraq into NYC now, you can never say.. 'see we did good thing by invading iraq' or 'see iraqies are way better now' or 'we won' and bullshit like that... cos that would be an insult both to iraqies and the dead iraqies.

This is something way beyond Latinlover's brain capacity to understand.

Posted by Zild on Aug-14-2008 12:39:

I've said it before but progress in Iraq is akin to someone making progress learning how to speak and walk again after a near fatal beatdown from the police because they reached for their wallet. The police obviously thought they had an assault rifle up hidden up their asshole so they were justified.

Posted by MisterOpus1 on Aug-14-2008 19:04:

quote:
Originally posted by LatinLover
Your disturbed mind wont let you get pass the fact that the long term effect of this liberation will be the best thing that ever happened to Iraq. Decades from now Iraqis will be grateful that the US overthrew their dictator. Please Opus dont be so negative. We are in the right track now, and things are getting better for Iraq. And yet the far left still wont get past " why did we invade iraq". and they proclaim theirself the party of "change" and "progress" when clearly they are still living in the past.

The negativity I share with over 2/3 of Americans who also want us out is also shared with the majority of Iraqis as well as the majority of their government. Once again it's worth pointing out that you and the rest of the fading neocons are in the minority with your views of "success", however that may be measured.

Which, by the way, can you help define "victory" for us again? Can you help define the goals to which we have before you move them once again? Because your Administration has the darnest time defining these things for us all, which tends to bring a slight bout of skepticism in all of us as a consequence.

Regardless, the examination of the SURGE! needs to be understood not by the short-term decrease in violence, but how exactly that short term decrease was created in the first place and the consequences that could very well result in the creation. A cease fire created and continued by al Sadr is a very large part of this decrease in violence, which he absolutely loves to continue since the situation completely favors his interests in the future. The displacement of tens of millions of Iraqis via ethnic cleansing is also a major point of concern that has contributed to the decrease as well, yet it seemingly is completely overlooked and hand-waved away as if it carries no consequence. The paying off of the Sunni insurgents with money and guns is also being completely overlooked, which again has a short-term gain of decreasing violence but can have a cataclysmic long-term effect of heavily arming and supplying one of the main clashing factions.

This all has a potential boiling effect that can explode at any moment without notice, yet you want us to merely clap louder and stop being so darn negative.

Oh, and by the way, you remember the whole point of the SURGE!, right? It was NOT for a means to an end of simply reducing violence. The means was to reduce violence for an end result of the political process to take place so we can get their government to finally govern themselves, and then we get the fuck outa there. The goals that were created (18, I believe) are still not even close to being met as the Iraqi government continues to rely on us as their crutch, even though the majority of their political members want us out as well.

And that is why the SURGE! continues to be unsuccessful, because the primary goal of the political process remains stagnant, and we have put absolutely no pressure on them to move forward, which I firmly believe must happen. The threat of our troops leaving in a phased withdrawal, I believe, is a useful tool to put pressure on the Iraqi government to move forward so they can finally govern themselves and control their own country. And the tactics on how it was created is also quite dangerous for the reasons I described above.

By the way, how the hell do they keep letting your ass back in here? Their tolerance is obviously much higher for you than I ever would have, but I guess we'll wait and see how long it takes you to get banned once again.

Posted by St_Andrew on Aug-14-2008 19:48:

^^ I really don't get why the Obama campaign isn't downplaying the role surge more (they don't really do that at all).

Posted by LatinLover on Aug-14-2008 20:08:

quote:
Originally posted by MisterOpus1
The negativity I share with over 2/3 of Americans who also want us out is also shared with the majority of Iraqis as well as the majority of their government. Once again it's worth pointing out that you and the rest of the fading neocons are in the minority with your views of "success", however that may be measured.

Which, by the way, can you help define "victory" for us again? Can you help define the goals to which we have before you move them once again? Because your Administration has the darnest time defining these things for us all, which tends to bring a slight bout of skepticism in all of us as a consequence.

Regardless, the examination of the SURGE! needs to be understood not by the short-term decrease in violence, but how exactly that short term decrease was created in the first place and the consequences that could very well result in the creation. A cease fire created and continued by al Sadr is a very large part of this decrease in violence, which he absolutely loves to continue since the situation completely favors his interests in the future. The displacement of tens of millions of Iraqis via ethnic cleansing is also a major point of concern that has contributed to the decrease as well, yet it seemingly is completely overlooked and hand-waved away as if it carries no consequence. The paying off of the Sunni insurgents with money and guns is also being completely overlooked, which again has a short-term gain of decreasing violence but can have a cataclysmic long-term effect of heavily arming and supplying one of the main clashing factions.

This all has a potential boiling effect that can explode at any moment without notice, yet you want us to merely clap louder and stop being so darn negative.

Oh, and by the way, you remember the whole point of the SURGE!, right? It was NOT for a means to an end of simply reducing violence. The means was to reduce violence for an end result of the political process to take place so we can get their government to finally govern themselves, and then we get the fuck outa there. The goals that were created (18, I believe) are still not even close to being met as the Iraqi government continues to rely on us as their crutch, even though the majority of their political members want us out as well.

And that is why the SURGE! continues to be unsuccessful, because the primary goal of the political process remains stagnant, and we have put absolutely no pressure on them to move forward, which I firmly believe must happen. The threat of our troops leaving in a phased withdrawal, I believe, is a useful tool to put pressure on the Iraqi government to move forward so they can finally govern themselves and control their own country. And the tactics on how it was created is also quite dangerous for the reasons I described above.

By the way, how the hell do they keep letting your ass back in here? Their tolerance is obviously much higher for you than I ever would have, but I guess we'll wait and see how long it takes you to get banned once again.

Look MisterOpus,

If you think that I have all the time in the world to educate you on your intellectual insecurities, you are wrong! Clearly you have many questions but you are mentally handicapped and you are having troubles in finding the answers.

First, what right do you have to be the spokesman of the american people? All of a sudden, you think that you are the voice of all the bitching that is going around the country. Americans are not quitters and we are not giving up on Iraqis. Iraqis know that we are comitted to this cause that will benefit future generations. Decades from now their grandsons will enjoy freedom like no other in the region. Iraq will become the envy of the ME region, a country with a lot of potential economically and socially. But if you want to rob them from that liberty and security that me and you join, you have no moral authority what so ever! Please for once in your life dont be a quitter!

Typical, far left ideology. Just like your "savior" Obama not admitting that the surge has been one of the main factors of the decrease in violence. You want to call it short term, but as months have passed by it gives hints that is not. Every time new reports come out it shows a consistency in less violence. That has allowed our generals in the ground to emphasize more on training the Iraqi army. As you know they have made great progress and now the Iraqi army is involved and in complex operations and are giving encouraging results. One mission that the US has in mind, is giving more responsibility to the Iraqi army as our arm forces are being released od their duties little by little.

No doubt, dont get me wrong. Political reconcilation is a major challenge but NOT impossible. But its a fight that wont put many amercian and iraqis up on the line. We have set the stage for this reconciliation to take place.... sure are generals have done superb job.

Where the hell have you been? You know, it is ok not to hide from me. Have you been licensed yet as a massage therapist (is that what your doing?) Because you know I am such in need of some soft girly hands to give me a massage PM with prices and whats included in the menu

Posted by hardcore trancer on Aug-14-2008 21:24:

wow Latinlover is beyond insane thats for sure.Can you please stop saying "we care about the Iraqi people"? if you really did care about them you wouldnt have invaded them in the first place.You really think the Iraqi's were dreaming to be saved by Americans?

Posted by Krypton on Aug-14-2008 21:33:

Posted by hardcore trancer on Aug-14-2008 21:39:

quote:
Originally posted by Krypton

Posted by Krypton on Aug-14-2008 21:43:

Posted by MisterOpus1 on Aug-14-2008 23:03:

quote:
Originally posted by LatinLover
Look MisterOpus,

If you think that I have all the time in the world to educate you on your intellectual insecurities, you are wrong!

Considering you've never once engaged me with any points I have made to you in the past, I'm not surprised by your continual bouts of cowardice now. Spare me the bullshit, Arnold.

quote:
Clearly you have many questions but you are mentally handicapped and you are having troubles in finding the answers.

Clearly you continually portrayed yourself as the coward you always have been by attempting to attack me rather than the argument I posed, but you seemingly made a half-ass attempt below so let's dive in:

quote:
First, what right do you have to be the spokesman of the american people? All of a sudden, you think that you are the voice of all the bitching that is going around the country.

Umm, huh? I pointed out that I side with the majority of Americans (and Iraqis) on the views of Iraq and where our troops should be, and that is a bad thing because in doing so I suddenly become the "spokesman" of the American people? I'm pointing out where the majority of US stand, Arnold:

http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

Take a gander yourself. That doesn't necessarily make me a spokesman, it just makes me part of the majority, and by proxy, makes you part of the minority (as usual).

quote:
Americans are not quitters and we are not giving up on Iraqis.

Americans in large majorities above also appear to have more common sense than you, which supersedes your ridiculous "quitters" claim. Getting out of a stagnant situation that is propped up by pay-offs and arming the "enemy", as well as allowing the Iranian-run Iraqi Shiite government to continue to use our troops for their own stagnation to get their asses moving to govern themselves, coupled with failure to accomplish the primary objective of the SURGE! is not "quitting." It's common sense - something that has been entirely absent for the past 8 years and continues to be absent from recalcitrant neocon children such as yourself.

quote:
Iraqis know that we are comitted to this cause that will benefit future generations. Decades from now their grandsons will enjoy freedom like no other in the region. Iraq will become the envy of the ME region, a country with a lot of potential economically and socially.

I love predictions made by you neocons on how things will be going in Iraq. Given your incredible record of predictions since the start of this war, who the hell do you think you are to be able to make correct predictions now? Given the idiocy of this Administration and the neocons with their wildest of dreams and predictions, and given how ridiculously horrible your record on those predictions have been, let alone your continual movement of goalposts, what grounds does anyone have to even want to listen to your grandest of grand predictions?

Fucking please, Arnold. Blow your bong smoke up someone else's arse, not mine.

quote:
But if you want to rob them from that liberty and security that me and you join, you have no moral authority what so ever! Please for once in your life dont be a quitter!

Those words coming from you mean so much to me.

No, really.......

quote:
Typical, far left ideology.

Funny, guess the majority of Americans share the same ideology.

Wonder why? Strange, that.

quote:
Just like your "savior" Obama not admitting that the surge has been one of the main factors of the decrease in violence.

He's no more a "savior" to me than anyone else who ran, and I've got a myriad of issues against him as well. But he's a far cry better choice than that dirt bag McCain in your camp. And you're right, Obama has attributed the SURGE! as being one of the factors, but it's not the only one, which is a bit of a different story compared to the neocon turds who believe it's the only blessed rationale for a reduction in violence.

And even if Obama gives more accolades to the SURGE!, he has his political opinion and I certainly have mine. And like I said, I have my differences with him on certain issues.

quote:
You want to call it short term, but as months have passed by it gives hints that is not. Every time new reports come out it shows a consistency in less violence.

Less violence compared to the past two years, yes. However, the levels of violence are pretty much down to the levels prior to the past two years when the shit was really hitting the fan:

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

It's important to examine the entire war in complete context, which of course is next to impossible for you, but in doing so we see that while the reduction is terrific to have versus the past two years, we're really back to where we once were.

Provided we don't count those darn car bombs, of course:

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/04/26/764/

And I think it's also important to note that while it took 1,200 American soldier lives to get to this point of a DIPLOMATIC SURGE! that has yet to achieve it's primary goal, that darn prediction of 6 months has seemingly been stretched to 18 months in the first place. Yet another one of your neocon predictions that seemingly didn't quite hold up.

One other thing to note - have you given credence to the Awakening? You know, the Sunni leaders getting sick and tired of al Qaeda themselves, and started to turn on them on their own accord BEFORE our SURGE! even took place? Of course they started taking our money given to them instead of al Qaedas, but I'm wondering if you would acknowledge that at all.

quote:
That has allowed our generals in the ground to emphasize more on training the Iraqi army. As you know they have made great progress and now the Iraqi army is involved and in complex operations and are giving encouraging results. One mission that the US has in mind, is giving more responsibility to the Iraqi army as our arm forces are being released od their duties little by little.

Great, so we leave when again?

Oh wait, looks like our Administration might be admitting to a *gasp* TIMELINE!!!!!!!:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/ne...icle4526313.ece

Of course it's not exactly the 16 month timeline Obama was proposing, but it did appear that those darn Iraqi's liked his idea of our troops getting out:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080721...4.mNK7MhlCs0NUE

Evidently, Bush appeared to like it as well. Funny that.

By the way, do you have any links that support your notion in the first place? Because the GAO report that came out in June depicts a mixed picture. While there has been progress, the results are mixed. Specifically, out of the 16 provinces that were supposed to be able to govern themselves by now, only 8 are able to do so on a tentative level:

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d08837.pdf

quote:
No doubt, dont get me wrong. Political reconcilation is a major challenge but NOT impossible. But its a fight that wont put many amercian and iraqis up on the line. We have set the stage for this reconciliation to take place.... sure are generals have done superb job.

I never said the generals weren't doing a superb job, as well as the rest of our troops. The onus was never on them for political reconciliation, and they have done their jobs well. However, the primary goal as specifically stated by our Administration for the SURGE! was to set the stage for political reconciliation, and that has been anything but successful.

And I also did not say it was impossible, but I did point out that it is far from being accomplished, if it ever will be with our presence.

quote:
Where the hell have you been? You know, it is ok not to hide from me.

You were suspended, Arnold, remember? I took a leave of absence to study for my national Boards.

quote:
Have you been licensed yet as a massage therapist (is that what your doing?) Because you know I am such in need of some soft girly hands to give me a massage PM with prices and whats included in the menu

No, not for a massage therapist. I have passed and am now licensed as a Physical Therapist, however, as well as hold a Doctoral Degree in Physical Therapy. So that's Dr. Opus to you, bub.

Posted by Clovis on Aug-15-2008 04:46:

quote:
Originally posted by hardcore trancer
You really think the Iraqi's were dreaming to be saved by Americans?

Of course he does, he's about as delusional as Dick Cheney.

If this were 1969 he'd be screaming about how Vietnam will be so much better off with a democratic government and how we're liberating the Vietnamese from the evil communists and that in 20 years Vietnam will be a beautiful democracy, and the troops are dying for a good cause and we can't give up now because America doesn't quit.

It's mind motherfucking boggling.

40 years later, young men dying in far off lands for the whims of a few white men with power.

History. Repeats. Itself.

Posted by hardcore trancer on Aug-15-2008 06:05:

quote:
Originally posted by Clovis
Of course he does, he's about as delusional as Dick Cheney.

If this were 1969 he'd be screaming about how Vietnam will be so much better off with a democratic government and how we're liberating the Vietnamese from the evil communists and that in 20 years Vietnam will be a beautiful democracy, and the troops are dying for a good cause and we can't give up now because America doesn't quit.

It's mind motherfucking boggling.

40 years later, young men dying in far off lands for the whims of a few white men with power.

History. Repeats. Itself.

When will these ******s wake up from this delusional world of theirs?how many more have to die before they are stopped?

I mean you got true psychopaths like Latinlover running around in your country or even worst running your country.These people must be stopped and thrown into mental hospitals for the rest of their lives.

Posted by Clovis on Aug-15-2008 06:46:

It's just a pretext change...

Another pointless war with another pretext...

Posted by LatinLover on Aug-15-2008 19:30:

MisterOpus,

Do you really think I care about the worthless polls and statistics you come here and promote to fit your propoganda agenada? NO! Ive told you numerous time to not waste your time on them. All of a sudden you want this war to be popular give me break! Instead of trashing America you should be thinking about being a patriot and helping out this country. You have prove to us that you have no intentions in doing that, so the least you can do is to go educate yourself and see the truth. By doing that your helping America, one less idiot in this country.

Nobody is predicting anything. There are encouraging signs that things are better in Iraq and they are going to continue if we mantain this course. Nothing all. You are a pessimist that by that im starting to question your intentions about us being victorious in Iraq. Dont be a pessimist! Only because your partner is pessimist about you in the intemate life dosent me you should carry that mood.

I mean how can you say that Obama is better than Mccain. Obama is a myth! You know Im not going to continue this nonsense with you... Think w.e you want to think! Good luck!

By the way dude stop pursuing chick careers.

Posted by Krypton on Aug-15-2008 19:33:

quote:
Originally posted by LatinLover
MisterOpus,

Do you really think I care about the worthless polls and statistics you come here and promote to fit your propoganda agenada? NO! Ive told you numerous time to not waste your time on them. All of a sudden you want this war to be popular give me break! Instead of trashing America you should be thinking about being a patriot and helping out this country. You have prove to us that you have no intentions in doing that, so the least you can do is to go educate yourself and see the truth. By doing that your helping America, one less idiot in this country.

Nobody is predicting anything. There are encouraging signs that things are better in Iraq and they are going to continue if we mantain this course. Nothing all. You are a pessimist that by that im starting to question your intentions about us being victorious in Iraq. Dont be a pessimist! Only because your partner is pessimist about you in the intemate life dosent me you should carry that mood.

I mean how can you say that Obama is better than Mccain. Obama is a myth! You know Im not going to continue this nonsense with you... Think w.e you want to think! Good luck!

By the way dude stop pursuing chick careers.

Has your pussy ass joined the army yet? Hypocrite..

Posted by Clovis on Aug-15-2008 20:25:

Posted by Kinezi on Aug-15-2008 22:01:

Latinlover, Atmos and all those who think America is close to closing the deal in Iraq should watch this movie:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0912593/

quote:
It is your duty, as an American, to see this movie.

Posted by Lebezniatnikov on Aug-15-2008 23:47:

quote:
Originally posted by LatinLover
MisterOpus,

Do you really think I care about the worthless polls and statistics you come here and use to support your points? NO! Ive told you numerous time to not waste your time on facts. All of a sudden you want war to be supported to be justified give me break! Instead of trashing this administration you should be thinking about being a patriot and helping out Dick Cheney. You have prove to us that you have no intentions in doing that, so the least you can do is stop educate yourself and buy the rhetoric. By doing that your helping Bush, one less educated individual in this country.

Fixed.

The following couldn't be interpreted for fixing:

quote:

Nobody is predicting anything. There are encouraging signs that things are better in Iraq and they are going to continue if we mantain this course. Nothing all. You are a pessimist that by that im starting to question your intentions about us being victorious in Iraq. Dont be a pessimist! Only because your partner is pessimist about you in the intemate life dosent me you should carry that mood.

I mean how can you say that Obama is better than Mccain. Obama is a myth! You know Im not going to continue this nonsense with you... Think w.e you want to think! Good luck!

By the way dude stop pursuing chick careers.

Does anyone else recall LatinLover telling us he's a math teacher? lol.

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