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-- Advantages to upgrading to a better soundcard?
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its like watts, u must double it to gain 3

quote:

Originally posted by palm its like watts, u must double it to gain 3

Not exactly because sound level and power are physical phenomena which are well described by mathematical models. But yeah you need to double your power to get a 3db increase which is 'noticeable', but not anywhere twice as loud. Akin to light and it's inverse square relationship with distance.

Here you aren't going to get twice as good sound for twice the money, but there will be a 'noticeable' difference int he quality albeit very small if you don't have a professionally treated room and expensive monitors.

I agree with the poster who said Mackies and MOTU are more than enough for any home studio.

Magnus, don't get sucked in by these audiophiles recommending these pricey soundcards.

I would say that UNTIL you are going to start recording hardware and using outboard FX etc, stick with what you've got. Your music will not get any better, or sound any better by upgrading now the way you say you will. Its money down the drain.

Stick with the 2496. Then, if and when you are ready to use other outboard gear, that is the time to spend more on a better soundcard.
Otherwise as I see it, you'll upgrade now, get no benefit, then when you get more gear, you'll decide you need to upgrade again.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips Thats all good advice I'd say. I do have a bit of experience with different converters, MOTUs (Decent), M Audio (poor), focusrite (reasonable) etc. So I do have some idea what I'm talking about I just haven't had the chance to try a lynx yet.

Fair enough, it was just the post said "heard" and "from what I can see". I stand corrected

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips I think MOTU and mackies are more than good enough for ANY type of music - althought if I was recording I'd go RME to be sure. Like I was saying though, it would be silly to get a Lynx and run it through them, because its the two pieces just aren't on the same level.

+1 Totally, RME really are fucking great and it's not just the converters they use, it's about clocking with them and when it comes to recording they really are clear sounding.

I've used a lynx auroura (onc)e and there was a noticeable positive difference, even when compared to the usual PT HD3 systems (which actually I don't like that much - I can't put my finger on it, they do work very well etc. but just seem dead sounding).

The outcome of the earlier posted threads (on page one) were that it's all about economies of scale and diminishing returns.

Basically, part of the issue is, that manufacturers like M-audio made a good sounding card (2496) for about $100. You could easily spend $300 more on an "upgrade" and apart from more connectivity, not get any noticeably better sounding results from it (i.e. EMU, presonus, etc.).

That said, there is a subjective but apparent difference in quality between the $100 2496 and or a $500 motu ultralite (or even an apogee duet $500).

Now if you were to spend another $500-1000 on top of that so a total price $1000 - $1500 on a soundcard the increase in sonic quality is not going be anywhere near as much as from $100 card to the $500 card.

A factor to consider when thinking about any upgrade, is actually whether you will benefit from it and fro that to happen check your contributing factors:

1, are my speakers up to quality (HR824 = yes!)
2, Are they on stands or decoupled or isolated?
3, Am I using good, balanced cables? (monster, hosa = shit / Mogami,canare, van damme = great).
4, Is my room treated to well enough to let me hear these tiny differences in sonic quality?

If the answer is yes the go for it (the ultralite), if the answer to any is no and you don't want to fix these points, then stick with the 2496, it's a good card for home use.

If I were recording even occasionally, I would be happy with Motu for the price and connectivity, but overjoyed with Lynx, RME or Metric Halo if I could afford it (in that order).

quote:

Originally posted by DJ RANN

No worries, I wouldn't say my ears are great and I'm not much of an engineer, so you're probably more qualified on this stuff than me in that sense

I'm really not too keen on M audio stuff, even around here I've heard a lot of bad things about their drivers and sound quality. In that range I think presonus makes better kit, they've got enough connectivity at least.

My Digidesign m box is pretty bad IMO, I'm more and more thinking that it sounds like its got a blanket over it, I think because I bought an echo indigo for DJing which (it sounds like) has better quality its become more obvious to me. Thats whats got me thinking about converters, mics and preamps more... Problem is, I can't objectively quantify the differences, but after a month of using something I know that they're there. Thats why I'm relying a lot on reviews of more experienced people. So its interesting to hear that you're not keen on the digi 192s.

I do disagree with you about those factors you listed though, because if your doing recording then its best to get the best quality you can into the box, then at least if you improve your monitors and room later you can go back and remix. Obviously if you're just monitoring through the interface it doesn't matter.

I suppose my perspective is a bit different in that sense, I'm not only an EDM producer. Because I do so much live recording, I do really want to have good kit, because its not like a synth performance where you record the midi and can recapture the audio any time. A guitar, piano, violin or vocal performance happens once, and by the time you buy a new converter, you may never get back that perfect take...

If I was just monitoring through a DAC I would probably not even bother with an apogee, I might even stick with that M audio. Especially given I don't have good monitors (only AKG 240s).

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips I'm really not too keen on M audio stuff, even around here I've heard a lot of bad things about their drivers and sound quality. In that range I think presonus makes better kit, they've got enough connectivity at least.

Please elaborate, because I haven't heard any (or can't recall any) on the forums I'm part of. I've used m-audio for a couple of years, I was surprised by it's stability, no problems whatsoever. I had a creative card before, so maybe that put things into perspective haha, that creative was the mother of all my BSOD's. As soon as I took it out the problem was solved.

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller BSOD

???
whats that? BullShit OverDose?

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller Please elaborate, because I haven't heard any (or can't recall any) on the forums I'm part of. I've used m-audio for a couple of years, I was surprised by it's stability, no problems whatsoever. I had a creative card before, so maybe that put things into perspective haha, that creative was the mother of all my BSOD's. As soon as I took it out the problem was solved.

I don't know what first gave me the impression of their rubbishness, I just remember when I first joined here a lot of people were saying don't buy m audio or emu. Mainly I think it was issues with driver instability and latency, also, I think I heard something about dodgy phantom power on the pres at one stage?
I never paid much attention, just noted not to buy that stuff. When I heard an M audio in action (once very briefly through my own headphones) I've thought that it were a bit brittle sounding, and also just a bit sort of fuzzy and definitionless in the lower mids generally. It just didn't sound solid IMO...

quote:

Originally posted by palm ??? whats that? BullShit OverDose?

http://www.google.com/search?q=bsod

or

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bsod

quote:

Originally posted by Magnus So after reading those threads and doing some research online, I was thinking of deciding between the following since I'm on a PC: 1. Emu 0404 USB 2.0 Audio/MIDI Interface 2. Focusrite Saffire 3. MOTU UltraLite-MK3 Which would you recommend? I looked at the RME Fireface 400 and 800 but they are just way too expensive for me at this point in my life. Thanks!

I own a 2496. It's OK but it doesn't have balanced inputs/outputs, has few inputs in the first place and sounds good but not amazing.

Do you need more inputs? Outputs? Mic preamps?
Alot of other sound cards are more expensive because they have more inputs/outputs/mic preamps/etc, all of which may be useless to you.

I have the Focusrite Saffire LE. It's the same as the Saffire but cheaper, without the built-in effects.
-It sounds stunning compared to the 2496. Very, very good (but obv you need a good setup to be able to tell the difference).
-The mic pre-amps are also pretty good but I typically use my standalone preamp/condenser mic/compressor setup.
-There's a crapload of balanced inputs/outputs
-The Saffire driver software (where you set inputs/outputs/levels/monitoring options) is not intuitive or user friendly at all. But it works.
-It's FireWire so you should make sure you have a good FW chipset (like a Texas Instruments one)


My production partner had the 0404 for the first year we were producing. The FW chipset in his laptop didn't allow him to use his FW card so we had to use that USB 2.0 card. There are almost no "GOOD" USB sound cards. The standard simply doesn't offer the stability/latency needed for ultrafast pro audio.

With that said, it did the job, with a few crackles and pops (nothing too bad though). I wouldn't recommend it unless you absolutely have to. The Saffire sounds WAY better and it's more stable.


I haven't tried the MOTU, but from my research last time I was shopping, the Saffire had the best bang for the buck.

quote:

Originally posted by Storyteller Please elaborate, because I haven't heard any (or can't recall any) on the forums I'm part of. I've used m-audio for a couple of years, I was surprised by it's stability, no problems whatsoever. I had a creative card before, so maybe that put things into perspective haha, that creative was the mother of all my BSOD's. As soon as I took it out the problem was solved.

M-Audio has pretty bad drivers, and even worse driver support. I've had SO MANY problems with so many different M-Audio products.

Still, the 2496 is amazing value.

quote:

Originally posted by strathos http://www.google.com/search?q=bsod or http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bsod

oh the "getting an axe" lol, i love when that happens

quote:

Originally posted by dainja I own a 2496. It's OK but it doesn't have balanced inputs/outputs, has few inputs in the first place and sounds good but not amazing. Do you need more inputs? Outputs? Mic preamps? Alot of other sound cards are more expensive because they have more inputs/outputs/mic preamps/etc, all of which may be useless to you. I have the Focusrite Saffire LE. It's the same as the Saffire but cheaper, without the built-in effects. -It sounds stunning compared to the 2496. Very, very good (but obv you need a good setup to be able to tell the difference). -The mic pre-amps are also pretty good but I typically use my standalone preamp/condenser mic/compressor setup. -There's a crapload of balanced inputs/outputs -The Saffire driver software (where you set inputs/outputs/levels/monitoring options) is not intuitive or user friendly at all. But it works. -It's FireWire so you should make sure you have a good FW chipset (like a Texas Instruments one) My production partner had the 0404 for the first year we were producing. The FW chipset in his laptop didn't allow him to use his FW card so we had to use that USB 2.0 card. There are almost no "GOOD" USB sound cards. The standard simply doesn't offer the stability/latency needed for ultrafast pro audio. With that said, it did the job, with a few crackles and pops (nothing too bad though). I wouldn't recommend it unless you absolutely have to. The Saffire sounds WAY better and it's more stable. I haven't tried the MOTU, but from my research last time I was shopping, the Saffire had the best bang for the buck.

Thanks dainja! So you think I would be better to get the Saffire LE over the MOTU Ultralike MK3? Its much cheaper and would save me a couple of hundred bucks. I also was told that MOTU is primarily a Mac company and that although their products work on the PC, the drivers are crap. Or is this not the case? How are the drivers for the Saffire on the PC?

quote:

Originally posted by Magnus I also was told that MOTU is primarily a Mac company and that although their products work on the PC, the drivers are crap. Or is this not the case?

I've been using my MOTU 828mkII (FW version) with a PC for years now with no issues - the drivers have been rock solid for me. That said, given your needs, the Saffire LE is probably a better choice IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips No worries, I wouldn't say my ears are great and I'm not much of an engineer, so you're probably more qualified on this stuff than me in that sense I'm really not too keen on M audio stuff, even around here I've heard a lot of bad things about their drivers and sound quality. In that range I think presonus makes better kit, they've got enough connectivity at least.

That's the strangest thing but I do know what you're talking about - I while back on here a few people were really complaining about M-audio, but I'm with Storyteller on this one. I used a 2496 for 5 years and wish every card was as stable or as good value. I mean in that entire period I had one driver issue, and it was my own fualt relating to a service pack upgrade. I used to do some tech support for various brands and M-audio (outside of motu) was by far the least hassle and easist to troubleshoot.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips My Digidesign m box is pretty bad IMO, I'm more and more thinking that it sounds like its got a blanket over it, I think because I bought an echo indigo for DJing which (it sounds like) has better quality its become more obvious to me. Thats whats got me thinking about converters, mics and preamps more... Problem is, I can't objectively quantify the differences, but after a month of using something I know that they're there. Thats why I'm relying a lot on reviews of more experienced people. So its interesting to hear that you're not keen on the digi 192s.

The intrinsic problem with the Digi stuff is that the cheaper versions (mboxes) are just designed to get more people interested in the brand and the quality wasn't all that great. They were decent value in terms of getting protools for cheap, they had mic pres on them etc, but their component choice was shitty and they aren't that clean. Don't get me wrong the 192's don;t sound "bad" at all, just really lifeless, and when you're spending that much money on converters they should be incredible. A lot of really top engineers revert back to tape at some stage of an important project for this very reason.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips I do disagree with you about those factors you listed though, because if your doing recording then its best to get the best quality you can into the box, then at least if you improve your monitors and room later you can go back and remix. Obviously if you're just monitoring through the interface it doesn't matter.

That's true but I have trouble seeing how you can properly judge your playback of that recording (i.e. tell whether your mic postioninng was correct, eq was correct etc.) unless you have a good monitoring setup in the first place, and I wouldn't record anything through crappy cables. That list is cheap fixes - even guitar center sells mogami starquad cable for a couple of bucks a yard. Speaker stands - you can buy em for $50 or make them for less or Auralex isolators are about $40. Then compare that to the cost of decent monitors like 824's ($1000?) and it's drops in a an ocean when you consider the benefits are quite big.

check out sasha's studio - bit foam, an old rug. not expensive stuff.

http://www.solid-state-logic.com/users/all/sasha.asp

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips I suppose my perspective is a bit different in that sense, I'm not only an EDM producer. Because I do so much live recording, I do really want to have good kit, because its not like a synth performance where you record the midi and can recapture the audio any time. A guitar, piano, violin or vocal performance happens once, and by the time you buy a new converter, you may never get back that perfect take... If I was just monitoring through a DAC I would probably not even bother with an apogee, I might even stick with that M audio. Especially given I don't have good monitors (only AKG 240s).

See you point, but I do reckon there's benefit to be had (but somewhat less) if you are just monitoring, because the playback will be enhanced with a better DAC, and therefore you hear frequencies better, with more clarity and hopefully eq, mix, etc. better.

One more thing about M-audio. I think a lot of people who are/were familiar with their original offerings (PCI card) had a very high opinion becuase they got it right with those, and I think they fell down a bit when it came to their newer USB and FW offerings - in fact I remember a lot of peopl having issues with the very first batches of the FW410, but this was eventually sorted with a firmware update.

quote:

Originally posted by Magnus Thanks dainja! So you think I would be better to get the Saffire LE over the MOTU Ultralike MK3? Its much cheaper and would save me a couple of hundred bucks. I also was told that MOTU is primarily a Mac company and that although their products work on the PC, the drivers are crap. Or is this not the case? How are the drivers for the Saffire on the PC?

NP
Like I said, I know nothing about the MOTU card. I haven't used it. However, if the Saffire software interface doesn't bother you I see no reason not to go for it! It's a really solid interface, and definitely great value.

The drivers for the Saffire are great. It was simple plug n play - no rebooting and BS like that needed (like M-Audio drivers).

However, like I said, the "mixing" interface you use to assign channels to monitoring, etc. is absolutely horrible. It works but it's not intuitive.


As for people saying that M-Audio got it's reputation from PCI cards. I tend to agree, their PCI products made their name and their FW offerings I've tried have all had serious problems when it came to drivers. =

ok guys sorry but 1 more Question from a n00b:

echo audiofire 4
saffire LE
Motu Ultralite (much more expensive, so a little hesitant over this one unless it's really worth it)

i'm in a similar situation as the friendly thread starter, but am on a mac: i'm interested in recording from a mic once in a while, but nothing major, and pretty infrequently, so don't need too many inputs, mostly need a strong driver as my current novation xiosynth card is suffering and causing latency

from posts so far it seems like i'll be heading for a saffire, just wondering if the audiofire would be better since i'm a mac user etc...??
cheers

@ RANN, Thats definately been my experience of the mbox, very dull and quite mushy sounding. I'm using the built in mic pres so I'm sure that doesn't help. It sounds nice for guitars and things, but vocals just don't cut through enough IMO.

As far as monitoring, I guess you just do what you can with it. no environment can ever be perfect and some environments just cant be fixed at all. At least with good converters you can always go back and remix your stuff at a later date, although you won't get the full benefit of it now. Of course, its always better to have good converters for monitoring, but if I was doing everything in software with VSTs, I'd look into better monitors and environment long before better converters personally. But as it is, I'm doing a lot of recording so I'll go for converters before monitors.

Egos, I hear the saffire has shoddy drivers compared to the MOTU, which I think are quite good (but haven't owned one). Fousrite preamps that they put in the mbox aren't great either, so be aware of that.... I don't know much at all about the echo.... MOTU gets recommended by everyone for being solid and sounding pretty good. But you pay for that reputation too.

didn't see the post just above mine saying saffire's good, my bad

thanks though kit!

anyone have any experience/comparison of echo vs focusrite? cheers

quote:

Originally posted by EgosXII ok guys sorry but 1 more Question from a n00b: echo audiofire 4 saffire LE Motu Ultralite (much more expensive, so a little hesitant over this one unless it's really worth it) i'm in a similar situation as the friendly thread starter, but am on a mac: i'm interested in recording from a mic once in a while, but nothing major, and pretty infrequently, so don't need too many inputs, mostly need a strong driver as my current novation xiosynth card is suffering and causing latency from posts so far it seems like i'll be heading for a saffire, just wondering if the audiofire would be better since i'm a mac user etc...?? cheers

my 2 cents......go for the audiofire. It sounds really good, is nice and stable, has very low latency, has a sensible hardware layout (pre's on front, lines on the back) in a nice small solid box with volume controls on the front. No stupid mixer software to deal with either and echo's support has always been quite good.

The motu will be really solid and stable, sound marginally better but I'm not sure it's the extra $200 for your situation for just slightly better converters and a bit more connectivity.

Haven't used the Saffire LE in a long time but also remember the mix software being a major turnoff and a complete pain. The sound quality is good but remember the box itself being a bit plasticy?

Anyway, I'm not a regular saffire user so maybe my opinion is not respective of their products.

quote:

Originally posted by kitphillips @ RANN, Thats definately been my experience of the mbox, very dull and quite mushy sounding. I'm using the built in mic pres so I'm sure that doesn't help. It sounds nice for guitars and things, but vocals just don't cut through enough IMO. As far as monitoring, I guess you just do what you can with it. no environment can ever be perfect and some environments just cant be fixed at all. At least with good converters you can always go back and remix your stuff at a later date, although you won't get the full benefit of it now. Of course, its always better to have good converters for monitoring, but if I was doing everything in software with VSTs, I'd look into better monitors and environment long before better converters personally. But as it is, I'm doing a lot of recording so I'll go for converters before monitors. Egos, I hear the saffire has shoddy drivers compared to the MOTU, which I think are quite good (but haven't owned one). Fousrite preamps that they put in the mbox aren't great either, so be aware of that.... I don't know much at all about the echo.... MOTU gets recommended by everyone for being solid and sounding pretty good. But you pay for that reputation too.

That's really good advice - way, way better to spend money on your good speakers before a converter, you'll get so much more of a performance increase for less money. I was just trying to make the point that if your monitor situation is already good then you can benefit from upgrading you soundcard, from say an M-audio to a Motu.

Egos, to add to what kit said, my personal view of focusrite equipment was flawless until the M-box - after that it was like they sold out and the mic pres on the mboxes are exactly how he describes, dull and mushy. I think the saffire's pres suffer from the same problem but again this is what I've heard, not what I have personally seen or heard for myself.

The motu is solid, stable, sounds good but expensive. If your on a budget the audiofire offers more for the money but if you've got the extra $200 to burn then you'll like the Motu, a lot.

I recorded the guitars on the song on my myspace with a 2496 if you're interested in hearing what one sounds like.

myspace.com/zild

Anyone know what would be a step up from a 2496 for someone recording guitars?

with pair of balanced outputs if possible...

jeez, got my audiophile 192 working and the sound is way different from the integrated sound card...alot more reverb or something, hope i set it up right

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